Sharks attribute success to Shelley's watchful Eye

[skacore 2]

Tme when it matters is the playoffs.

I don't remember Downey playing in the playoffs.

Ok try to stay with me here... An effective enforcer can change the team's mentality as a whole. Effect the way they play, etc. The 82 regular season games are played for a reason. Oh yeah, and Darren McCarty played in the playoffs, and it wasn't for his finesse.

[Z and D for the C 712]

The fact that you consider McCarty an enforcer is hysterical. He couldn't enforce a toddler. Regardless, in his prime, McCarty was able to fight AND play. Downey is good only for fighting. Players like that have no place in the playoffs. Fact.

Downey had nothing to do with winning the cup, guaranteed. If Downey had never existed, the playoffs would have gone the EXACT same. No one in the locker room was thinking "man, what would downey do right now". Any team toughness was a result of hunger for the cup.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Z and D for the C

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

I really miss Drake. I wish we had another "Drake" this year. I don't think I even realized how important he was till recently. I know the team said they wanted to win it for him, but I really thought it was just lip service.

If there was a candidate for this years "Drake", it would have to be Hossa. The guy turned down nearly $90 million to come here to try to win the Cup, and lately he's been playing like one of the only guys on the team that gives a damn. If there ever was incentive for the Wings to repeat, it would be to get Hossa his first ring and hopefully have him stick around.

[MaynardJKeenan 1]

If there was a candidate for this years "Drake", it would have to be Hossa. The guy turned down nearly $90 million to come here to try to win the Cup, and lately he's been playing like one of the only guys on the team that gives a damn. If there ever was incentive for the Wings to repeat, it would be to get Hossa his first ring and hopefully have him stick around.

I could be wrong, but I don't think they look a Hossa the same way the did with Drake. Hossa is still pretty young and although he plays hard, it's not the same as what Drakes brought. I'm just hoping they are cruising till after Xmas and then turn it on, if that's possible. It just seems like Babs is letting them get away with this bad play for a reason. He doesn't even seem theat upset when they play bad. Maybe he knows they need this right now after winning the cup. I'm hoping he turns up the pressure no later than after the AS game. I don't like it that we can't call up players this year either. I don't want anyone to get hert, but it might be the best thing, long term, for this team. I also hope we get our asses kicked alot more when we play like this so they don't start believing this kind of play would win in the PO's.

[mjlegend 155]

I really miss Drake. I wish we had another "Drake" this year. I don't think I even realized how important he was till recently. I know the team said they wanted to win it for him, but I really thought it was just lip service.

You gotta love the Drake.

[mjlegend 155]

Ha ha, you are the quintessential example of someone who really doesn't, nor really ever has followed hockey. Shelley is far from a goon, he is a role player yes -- but individuals like yourself don't understand the role he play thus the whole "worthless goon" argument.

Actually, I've covered it at various levels in various media for 14 years now. You have no idea how many scouts I talk to that are absolutely green with envy at how the Red Wings are able to look so good offensively every year and just last year, were able to add that defensive presence. It's a beautiful game when the Jody Shelleys of the world are left to the other teams. And I don't care that fighting is up around the league in the first third of the season. That won't mean dick when the post-season starts.

Last night against LA, Shelley played 2:31, fought Ivanans in the middle of the second period and had two shifts, total of 48 seconds, in the third period of a close-checking game. Not exactly the numbers of a well-rounded player. To be fair, they were probably trying to tie up the game and didn't want their goo... I mean, star role player, to be on the ice while they tried that.

I hate it when the papers decide that everyone on the roster deserves ink at some point in the season... it leads to completely pointless arguments.

[Guest Shoreline]

rue, the San Jose captain and his team showed some grit and determination by eventually beating the Calgary Flames, but the damage had been done. Their weakness was exposed and a message was sent to their next opponent, the Dallas Stars: Bully the Sharks and win the series.

This was the weakness that only those of us who followed the Sharks day to day knew would eventually expose itself. The team was loaded with talent, yet when it came to getting physically punished by varying "thug and goon" lines, the Sharks had no solid answer.

The lack of consequence for opposing teams created a chain reaction that eventually brought down the Sharks' entire game plan. Players normally best at creating offensive scoring chances would focus on payback and order, with frustrating results.

The Sharks had created a scoring machine but had neglected to fill the position that makes hockey unique to all sports. That position? The enforcer.

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Find TicketsPowered by FanSnap.comFast forward to this season.

The Sharks against the Philadelphia Flyers had career tough guy Riley Cote take a run at Sharks' player Dan Boyle.

Within two seconds, Jody Shelley squared off against Cote and the fight was on. (For the sake of unbiased reporting, Hockeyfights.com has Shelley winning the fight by a decisive margin.)

Regardless of who won the fight, a new message had been sent to all opponents: You no longer have free reign at our players.

This message, along with Shelley's on ice presence, has been one of the keys to the Sharks' staggering success this year. With the thugs and goons kept in check, the offensive machine can focus on putting shots on the net. This has been Coach Todd McLellan's strategy from day one, and it seems to be working.

Why am I not surprised..

Been saying that for a while, with plenty of people in denial that having at least one or two tough players will help this team far more greatly than being zero-dimensional (i.e. the non existent dimension) when it comes to the message an enforcer sends to an opponent none of the skill players on this team will/should.

All of the arguments against an enforcer have been shot down -- lack of scoring, lack of contribution, blah blah. It's time to pick one up.

[MaynardJKeenan 1]

I'm not sure if we need an enforcer. I don't recall many times this year where I thought an enforcer was needed. Anyone have any for instances.....

[sureWhyNot 19]

The fact that you consider McCarty an enforcer is hysterical. He couldn't enforce a toddler. Regardless, in his prime, McCarty was able to fight AND play. Downey is good only for fighting. Players like that have no place in the playoffs. Fact.

Downey had nothing to do with winning the cup, guaranteed. If Downey had never existed, the playoffs would have gone the EXACT same. No one in the locker room was thinking "man, what would downey do right now". Any team toughness was a result of hunger for the cup.

You sound like an idiot -- plain and simple. I tried to think of other ways of saying it, but clearly it wouldn't have gotten through to you. For you to say that a guy who played 56 of the 82 regular season games had absolutely nothing to do with the teams overall success not only shows that you are clueless about hockey, but you really have no comprehension of team sports whatsoever.

The only thing that makes me cringe worse then watching the Wings play of late is reading posts like this, from people who will sit here all year and attempt to discredit the idea of having ANY sort of muscle on the time, while at the same time insist that guys like Dats, Zett, Hossa, etc should not only be looked at for our offense (and from the looks of our goaltending we're going to need a lot of it) but also the grit and what not needed to complete a well rounded hockey team.

I hate to tell ya man but you are in for a whirl of dissapointment. I am not trying to say that if we had Downey we would be playing better or win the cup, so don't even try framing it that way. We are so lacking in the "contact" aspect of hockey (you do remember it's a contact sport) that Downey or McCarty probably wouldn't do much at this point.

Detroit has turned into a one trick poney -- Undersized, offensive minded forwards and undersized, and subpar dmen with a handful of absolute superstars mixed in -- those being Zetterberg, Homer, Dats, Hossa, Franzen, Lids & Rafalski.

Guess what -- that will win us some games no doubt -- but it won't win you a cup.

[ben_usmc 253]

someone was punching Z I think about 4 games ago.

[scotzman 29]

I'm not sure if we need an enforcer. I don't recall many times this year where I thought an enforcer was needed. Anyone have any for instances.....

When Roy punched Z about 4 times behind the net in the Calgary game... honestly, anytime you play the Ducks, Blues, Flames, Hawks or any other team that likes to use cheap shots or intimidation to beat us. Do those tactics work? Don't care... stop taking shots at our skill guys.

Again, we're talking about one guy here... we don't need a thug or a goon, we just need a guy willing to drop 'em if needed. A guy who will keep people honest. It has been the way of the NHL for longer than any of us will know... why mess with it?

I'm still waiting for a list of teams that won the Cup without having a tough guy/enforcer on the team... anyone?

[CrossoverThrash 0]

someone was punching Z I think about 4 games ago.

It was Eric Nystrom, big whoop his ugly ass head isn't gonna do anything

[CrossoverThrash 0]

The wings can not just go out and get an enforcer, we see hom much downey sucks at playing the game, we need guys like Carcillo or Lucic but theres no way we can unless we draft them, we dont need jodi shelley or godard or mcgrattan who apparently is having substence abuse problems

[CrossoverThrash 0]

did they not have shelley last year anyways look how far that got them, its mcclellan and boyle thats whos making hte difference

[Nev 1,085]

All of the arguments against an enforcer have been shot down

Only in your own head

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but what the likes of me and Z&D are saying is NOT "no to fighting", its "yes, pugilists are nice, but they have to be worthy of a roster spot by themselves." Its the Redwings way and its the Babcock way. So yes to 90s Lapointe & McCarty, no to Downey.

And please fight fans, try not to constantly insult your opponents, it doesn't strengthen your argument in any way shape or form - calling me an idiot who knows nothing about hockey doesn't change the fact that Downey never played in the playoffs and Mac was the 13th forward.

[Guest Shoreline]

Only in your own head

I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, but what the likes of me and Z&D are saying is NOT "no to fighting", its "yes, pugilists are nice, but they have to be worthy of a roster spot by themselves." Its the Redwings way and its the Babcock way. So yes to 90s Lapointe & McCarty, no to Downey.

And please fight fans, try not to constantly insult your opponents, it doesn't strengthen your argument in any way shape or form - calling me an idiot who knows nothing about hockey doesn't change the fact that Downey never played in the playoffs and Mac was the 13th forward.

My head knows right. You wish to make an assumption that your opponent here suggests you're an idiot and yet you treat them the same. It is well established that during the playoffs most enforcers do not play. However, it is also established that if your team is banged up when you get into the playoffs (after a rugged season of dealing with teams who like to play a beat-em-up game which right now the Wings have no defense for), worn down, injured, whatever, they will not do well in the playoffs, especially against a more physical team which has a pretty softened up opponent to bear down upon. Once again, in regards to the Wings shortcomings, only look at their playoff defeats this decade and the physical teams that beat them. Thusfar the Sharks are playing the Wings system and beating them at it. Opponents are giving our team's goalies snow showers, laying out our team's players, and physically beating them up. The guys look lazy, they look tired, and the physical game is yet another way to help in terms of motivation -- which is why when teams are down on the scoreboard, it's what they turn to to. If it didn't work, it wouldn't continue happening throughout the league.

Also, given the point, +/-, ice time, and simple contribution factor of some of the players currently on the roster, an enforcer would be a better overall choice anyways. The Wings continued lack of success is very easily pointed toward their soft play, terrible defense, and particularly not willing to answer the challenge physically. They're simply getting run over and look like a team of prissy elites. As mentioned in one of the GDT's, hard to distinguish them, in their disregard for finishing checks, from the ******* Ice Capades doing figure 8's up and down the ice and expecting results in a hockey game. I've seen this Wings team before, many times. I've also seen the results of it.

Edited December 17, 2008 by Shoreline

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Ha ha, you are the quintessential example of someone who really doesn't, nor really ever has followed hockey. Shelley is far from a goon, he is a role player yes -- but individuals like yourself don't understand the role he play thus the whole "worthless goon" argument.

How many times do stars of the Game, whether it be Gretzky, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Zetterburg, Hull, the list goes on forever, have to state that they respect, and love having guys there to watch there backs and that enforcers are good for the game, and good for the skill guys on that given team.

And what type of NHL are you talking about, you know, the one you mentioned in you diatribe on how worthless guys like Shelley are.

Is it the same NHL that in this (the 08-09 season) has fighting up for the third consecutive year in a row? Is it that NHL?

PER Mike Brophy on October 27, 2008 via sportsnet.ca

Please clear it up for us.

He said this perfectly!

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Why am I not surprised..

Been saying that for a while, with plenty of people in denial that having at least one or two tough players will help this team far more greatly than being zero-dimensional (i.e. the non existent dimension) when it comes to the message an enforcer sends to an opponent none of the skill players on this team will/should.

All of the arguments against an enforcer have been shot down -- lack of scoring, lack of contribution, blah blah. It's time to pick one up.

Yes sir, humbly agree, and the beauty is we have one in AAA just waiting for a phonecall, Aaron Downey. Downey isn't the biggest enforcer in the league, but he's one of the most tactical and intelligent fighters that makes up for his size. He can hang with any heavy and has fought every heavy.

Also, I want to make a key point. Enforcer 'supporters' as we're being called aren't hockey fans that turn off the tv if there isn't a fight. It's simply not true, we love hockey first, well rounded hockey. I'd watch Boxing if that's all I was looking for. I also know I can't stand seeing our players roughed up by players for trying to crash the net.

Edited December 17, 2008 by E_S_A_D

[Guest E_S_A_D]

I'm not sure if we need an enforcer. I don't recall many times this year where I thought an enforcer was needed. Anyone have any for instances.....

I could go on and on, but just last week Conklin repeatedly was getting sprayed in the face (A f- u' sign of no respect in hockey). The offense basically just stood in his crease post whistles, etc. Our players let them do this. You can't tell me that doesn't get in the head of a goalie knowing he's going to get sprayed in the face every save he makes without any of his players having a retribution.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

When Z got punched in the head 4 times the other day and nothing happened... this would've came in handy.......

[Guest micah]

The wings can not just go out and get an enforcer, we see hom much downey sucks at playing the game, we need guys like Carcillo or Lucic but theres no way we can unless we draft them, we dont need jodi shelley or godard or mcgrattan who apparently is having substence abuse problems

Why on earth would you want your fighterto be a skilled player? Every time Lucic fights the other team's 4th liner, Boston loses the fight, no matter what happened in the fight. Taking Lucic away for 5 minutes is a win. Any pumping up of the bench or the crowd or any message sent is just a bonus.

4th line specialists should be the ones dropping their gloves. There is no reason that our 4th liners haven't evolved into someone like an Ian Lapperierre other than perhaps that they didn't want to or were afraid to. They certainly wouldn't be scaring off heaveyweights, but they could at least send the message that the Wings are an organisation that is not afraid of you.

I really wonder how many games some of the anti-enforcer types here think dressing Downey would have lost for us. How many games did he cost us last year?

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Yes sir, humbly agree, and the beauty is we have one in AAA just waiting for a phonecall, Aaron Downey. Downey isn't the biggest enforcer in the league, but he's one of the most tactical and intelligent fighters that makes up for his size. He can hang with any heavy and has fought every heavy.

Seconded. Downey's a beast who would gladly take on a guy of Chara's size.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Why on earth would you want your fighterto be a skilled player? Every time Lucic fights the other team's 4th liner, Boston loses the fight, no matter what happened in the fight. Taking Lucic away for 5 minutes is a win. Any pumping up of the bench or the crowd or any message sent is just a bonus.

4th line specialists should be the ones dropping their gloves. There is no reason that our 4th liners haven't evolved into someone like an Ian Lapperierre other than perhaps that they didn't want to or were afraid to. They certainly wouldn't be scaring off heaveyweights, but they could at least send the message that the Wings are an organisation that is not afraid of you.

I really wonder how many games some of the anti-enforcer types here think dressing Downey would have lost for us. How many games did he cost us last year?

Dude, Micah, you're good... VERY well said.

I agree, Downey's job isn't to score a single point frankly. His +/- is the only thing any coach would judge him by and his effectiveness to protect the top 3 lines skill players; predominantly Hossa, Datsyuk, Zetterberg, and the small fries such as Hudler.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Are the anti-enforcer people COMPLETELY forgetting THIS???

[Nev 1,085]

Hey thanks for proving yourself wrong - We had an enforcer in the line-up and yet Lidstrom still got run-over. What gives?

We had McCarty in the line-up in the Nashville series and Tootoo still stomped on Kris Drapers back and spent the entire series being a little *****. Having a fighter in the line-up did NOTHING to stop that.

If you think having Downey and/or McCarty in the line-up is going to solve this teams problems by making the rest of the team more physical you're sorely mistaken. In fact it would make it worse. One of our greatest strengths last season was that whilst no-one dropped the gloves, the players stood up for themselves physically and were not intimidated by the opposition - guys like Hudler and Sammy getting involved in scrums and facewashing - they weren't going to scare anyone, but they were prepared to stand up and not run away and hide. Every single opponent in the playoffs tried goonery at some point in each series and what good did it do them? None whatsoever, the wings shrugged it off and continued to outwork and outplay them.

This year, the shying away from physical stuff is just one of a myriad of problems this team faces as a result of "we won the cup" syndrome. Adding a fighter will only worsen the lack of "one-for-all, all-for-one" attitude of last year because why stand up for yourself when you can get someone to do it for you?

People are mentioning the Zetterberg roughing against Calgary - quite rightly - he got pushed around and no-one came to his defense. Last season all the skaters would have piled into a scrum, this year everyone stood around and let it happen. Having Downey on the bench though (lets be honest, he wouldn't be on the ice with Z) would not have prevented it one little bit, and even if he was on the ice, he's not going to pile in and drop the gloves because he'd probly get the extra penalty.

Which leads me on the instigator rule.....deserving of its own thread......in its current format it makes it nearly impossible for enforcers to be the policeman on the ice that you all describe.