eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Im acting like he doesn't have a chance because he doesn't.. Last season Mike Richards wasn't nearly playing as well. Now hes on pace to have the same season as Z had last year, except he hits more, plays more on the PK and scores more short handed. Datsyuk speaks for himself And Madden and Kesler are guys that get nominated because some still like to nominate purely defensive forwards. The thing is, Zetterberg is one of the five best defensive forwards in the league, REGARDLESS of his offensive output. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
detroitsportsman05 1 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Nogood... the Wings don't have to lose Zetterberg to keep the depth on the team...thats just a poor assumption. They can't keep AS MUCH depth...that I will agree with... I think this is a fair guess at next year with out over or under guessing contracts Zetterberg 7,100,000 Datsyuk 6,700,000 Franzen 4,000,000 Filppula 3,000,000 Cleary 2,800,000 Hudler 2,500,000 Holmstrom 2,250,000 Draper 1,583,333 Leino 1,000,000 Maltby 883,333 Helm 599,444 Meech 433,333 Lidstrom 7,450,000 Rafalski 6,000,000 Stuart 3,750,000 Kronwall 3,000,000 Lilja 1,250,000 Ericsson 900,000 Lebda 650,000 Osgood 1,416,667 Howard 717,000 That brings a total of 57,983,110 which yes is more than the current 56,700,000 by 1,283,110...but that could be a good thing since i tried to overestimate and not take any HUGE hometown discounts. That is 12F 7D and 2G...obviously not as deep as you would want. Franzen-Datsyuk-Holmstrom Cleary-Zetterberg-Hudler Leino-Filppula-Helm Maltby-Draper-Meech Lidstrom-Rafalski Kronwall-Stuart Lilja-Ericsson Osgood Howard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoWings1905 2,694 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 You're assuming that everyone in the lineup will take a discount and its just not going to happen. Some guys wan't more playing time, some want more money, they're all not amazing guys who will do anything to help the team, they have families and their own personal interests. Z is one of those "amazing" guys and you are quite willing to let him go. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lets go pavel 2 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 The numbers I proposed earlier: Hudler @ $3 million Sammy @ $2.5 Franzen @ $5 Except it isn't keep Z or the other 3, by your own numbers you could replace Franzen and one of the other 2 with Z and still keep the other guy ... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nogood 0 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 And you do realize the season is only half over? Half the season is over and the only reason for Zetterberg's current play is a "Slump". You know those darn 40 game slumps, they happen to the best of them. Go to site with a little less bias for one team, like hfboards, see what other fans think. Most think the top three for the Selke thus far are Richards, Datsyuk and Kesler. This is a site where Zetterberg, two months ago was considered the best player on the planet... I go with what I see. Datsyuk is playing better than last season and barring injury is going to win another Selke. Richards is on pace to have a better season than Z did last season and obviously this season. This is a simple discussion and you're not adding too it. We can't make predictions for awards this soon? What about the 3/4 mark? Do I have to wait till game 82 to bring it up? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heroes of Hockeytown 694 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 The problem is that, right now, it is hard to justify Zetterberg's salary when comparing him to Pavel Datsyuk. Datsyuk looks like a steal at 6.7 million right now. I am tired of seeing this point. To Datsyuk, much love, but tough nuggets. You signed before your breakout season, you don't get paid the extra $400-500,000 that Hank might get for signing after his Conn Smythe season. Thems the breaks. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lets go pavel 2 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 I am tired of seeing this point. To Datsyuk, much love, but tough nuggets. You signed before your breakout season, you don't get paid the extra $400-500,000 that Hank might get for signing after his Conn Smythe season. Thems the breaks. Agreed. Datsyuk IS a steal, there's no doubt, but we can't refuse to sign anyone else unless they are equally "stolen". Different times, different circumstances. And what's a few hundred thousand between millionaires? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nogood 0 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Nogood... the Wings don't have to lose Zetterberg to keep the depth on the team...thats just a poor assumption. They can't keep AS MUCH depth...that I will agree with... I think this is a fair guess at next year with out over or under guessing contracts Zetterberg 7,100,000 Datsyuk 6,700,000 Franzen 4,000,000 Filppula 3,000,000 Cleary 2,800,000 Hudler 2,500,000 Holmstrom 2,250,000 Draper 1,583,333 Leino 1,000,000 Maltby 883,333 Helm 599,444 Meech 433,333 Lidstrom 7,450,000 Rafalski 6,000,000 Stuart 3,750,000 Kronwall 3,000,000 Lilja 1,250,000 Ericsson 900,000 Lebda 650,000 Osgood 1,416,667 Howard 717,000 That brings a total of 57,983,110 which yes is more than the current 56,700,000 by 1,283,110...but that could be a good thing since i tried to overestimate and not take any HUGE hometown discounts. You have Franzen taking a million or two less than he would get on the open market. You have Z taking nearly a million less than he could get. And the same goes for Hudler. Thats three million and the additional cap decrease expecting puts us millions over the cap. So the only way it works is if you lose Hudler or Franzen. So the team loses Conklin, Franzen/Hudler, Hossa and Sammy. So in place of keeping Z, we'll instead lose our starting goalie(debatable), 30 goals from Hudler, 30 goals from Franzen and a solid role player in Sammy. Hossa doesn't matter, he was a one time deal. The only way it makes sense to keep Z would be to trade Flip and hope that Zetterberg can score 50 goals, while centering his own line. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjlegend 155 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Nogood's right. Trade Zetterberg for a bag of pucks while he still has value and before he signs for $9 million... whereever someone has cap room. Wait, who has cap room in the league again? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lets go pavel 2 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Half the season is over and the only reason for Zetterberg's current play is a "Slump". You know those darn 40 game slumps, they happen to the best of them. Go to site with a little less bias for one team, like hfboards, see what other fans think. Most think the top three for the Selke thus far are Richards, Datsyuk and Kesler. This is a site where Zetterberg, two months ago was considered the best player on the planet... I go with what I see. Datsyuk is playing better than last season and barring injury is going to win another Selke. Richards is on pace to have a better season than Z did last season and obviously this season. This is a simple discussion and you're not adding too it. We can't make predictions for awards this soon? What about the 3/4 mark? Do I have to wait till game 82 to bring it up? You can make all the predictions you want, but you're not going to win a lot of arguments pretending your personal predictions are a factual basis for your arguments. No one on here said he WOULD win the Selke, but I think you are quick to discount him from consideration based solely on a slight drop in offensive production. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nogood 0 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Nogood's right. Trade Zetterberg for a bag of pucks while he still has value and before he signs for $9 million... whereever someone has cap room. Wait, who has cap room in the league again? Half of you still haven't figured out the cap yet. You don't lose players for "Nothing", you gain capspace with their loss. And for Zetterberg it would mean at least seven million in space to help retain our roster. There are too many NMCs and NTCs on this team to make any other moves. Draper, Maltby, Cleary all have to stay. Flip is the only guy that COULD be moved but he played great as our second line center in the playoffs and hes signed relatively cheap for five seasons. Zetterberg and Hossa are nice to have around but aren't necessary. The ball really is in Zetterberg's park, this team could stay together fairly well if he took a sizeable discount. Seven million isn't it. The only way to maintain depth on this team is if everyone takes short, discount deals. Whcih means, we run into the same problems in a couple seasons. You can't have this much money tied into so few players. And really, Lidstrom doesn't need to retire at all and any of you expecting him to take $4-$5 million per season is delusional. Hes noting to take four million less than hes worth while winning the Norris. You guys claim hes the best in the league, claim hes the best in the world and say hes the second best D-man of all time, yet want him to take a massive discount? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GoWings1905 2,694 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Half of you still haven't figured out the cap yet. You don't lose players for "Nothing", you gain capspace with their loss. And for Zetterberg it would mean at least seven million in space to help retain our roster. There are too many NMCs and NTCs on this team to make any other moves. Draper, Maltby, Cleary all have to stay. Flip is the only guy that COULD be moved but he played great as our second line center in the playoffs and hes signed relatively cheap for five seasons. Zetterberg and Hossa are nice to have around but aren't necessary. The ball really is in Zetterberg's park, this team could stay together fairly well if he took a sizeable discount. Seven million isn't it. The only way to maintain depth on this team is if everyone takes short, discount deals. Whcih means, we run into the same problems in a couple seasons. You can't have this much money tied into so few players. And really, Lidstrom doesn't need to retire at all and any of you expecting him to take $4-$5 million per season is delusional. Hes noting to take four million less than hes worth while winning the Norris. You guys claim hes the best in the league, claim hes the best in the world and say hes the second best D-man of all time, yet want him to take a massive discount? Wait a second ... Z isn't necessary but Filppula, Samuelsson and even Franzen or Hudler are? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Half of you still haven't figured out the cap yet. You don't lose players for "Nothing", you gain capspace with their loss. And for Zetterberg it would mean at least seven million in space to help retain our roster. There are too many NMCs and NTCs on this team to make any other moves. Draper, Maltby, Cleary all have to stay. Flip is the only guy that COULD be moved but he played great as our second line center in the playoffs and hes signed relatively cheap for five seasons. Zetterberg and Hossa are nice to have around but aren't necessary. The ball really is in Zetterberg's park, this team could stay together fairly well if he took a sizeable discount. Seven million isn't it. The only way to maintain depth on this team is if everyone takes short, discount deals. Whcih means, we run into the same problems in a couple seasons. You can't have this much money tied into so few players. And really, Lidstrom doesn't need to retire at all and any of you expecting him to take $4-$5 million per season is delusional. Hes noting to take four million less than hes worth while winning the Norris. You guys claim hes the best in the league, claim hes the best in the world and say hes the second best D-man of all time, yet want him to take a massive discount? I'm 100% all-for maintaining depth on this team, but you're talking about an offense full of scrubs. What happens when the playoffs roll around and the bottom 3 lines can't put the puck in the net? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nogood 0 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Wait a second ... Z isn't necessary but Filppula, Samuelsson and even Franzen or Hudler are? Can Z score 90+ goals and score 200 points? If the answer is no, than yes. The most conservative estimates still mean that keeping Z and Hudler means losing Franzen, Sammy and trading Flip. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjlegend 155 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Half of you still haven't figured out the cap yet. You don't lose players for "Nothing", you gain capspace with their loss. And for Zetterberg it would mean at least seven million in space to help retain our roster. There are too many NMCs and NTCs on this team to make any other moves. Draper, Maltby, Cleary all have to stay. Flip is the only guy that COULD be moved but he played great as our second line center in the playoffs and hes signed relatively cheap for five seasons. Zetterberg and Hossa are nice to have around but aren't necessary. The ball really is in Zetterberg's park, this team could stay together fairly well if he took a sizeable discount. Seven million isn't it. The only way to maintain depth on this team is if everyone takes short, discount deals. Whcih means, we run into the same problems in a couple seasons. You can't have this much money tied into so few players. And really, Lidstrom doesn't need to retire at all and any of you expecting him to take $4-$5 million per season is delusional. Hes noting to take four million less than hes worth while winning the Norris. You guys claim hes the best in the league, claim hes the best in the world and say hes the second best D-man of all time, yet want him to take a massive discount? It would go completely against the character of Z AND Lids to NOT take the hometown discount, given how the leaders before them were faced with the exact same situation and chose to play in Detroit and take a half-mil less rather than make stupid-high money in a hockey s***hole like Nashville, Carolina or Tampa. Ultimately, I appreciate Z for taking his time on the length and figures on the contract. He wants to make sure he's happy and comfortable wearing red and white - and then he can start playing his ass off again just like he did when the negotiations weren't weighing him down. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 308 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 I am tired of seeing this point. To Datsyuk, much love, but tough nuggets. You signed before your breakout season, you don't get paid the extra $400-500,000 that Hank might get for signing after his Conn Smythe season. Thems the breaks. Very true, the cap was lower, he hadn't broken out yet, no awards on his mantel. All of these things make signing a long term contract tricky for both sides. If Dats signs and then s***s the bed the team is screwed. IF Dats signs and goes on to be one of the best in the league, he is under paid (still very well paid though) and the team has cap room. Lets say Z signs for 7.5 for 10, then turns around and next year absolutely s***s the bed, I mean fourth liner, scratched, 20 points s***s the bed, the team is screwed. On the other hand if Z signs for 7.5 10 years and goes on to win 2 MVPs another cup and another Conn Smyth, picks up a Selke or two, maybe a ross, then this deal is sweeter than candy apples!! It is a guessing game, one that the Wings seem to have perfected. For the most part. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nogood 0 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 I'm 100% all-for maintaining depth on this team, but you're talking about an offense full of scrubs. What happens when the playoffs roll around and the bottom 3 lines can't put the puck in the net? Holmstrom-Datsyuk-Franzen Leino-Flip-Hudler Cleary-Helm-Sammy ?-Draper-Maltby Lidstrom-Rafalski Kronwall-Stuart Lilja-Meech Osgood Conklin The loss of Hossa is impossible to avoid, the cap is going down and it was a one time only deal that such a perfect storm of players over performing their contracts would happen. Do you guys realize that Z only makes $2.95 mill? That four or five million increase means we lose Franzen or Hossa. The lineup I posted is hardly full of "Scrubs". And after next season the deadweight will completely be gone, with another likely decrease in the cap. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nogood 0 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 It would go completely against the character of Z AND Lids to NOT take the hometown discount, given how the leaders before them were faced with the exact same situation and chose to play in Detroit and take a half-mil less rather than make stupid-high money in a hockey s***hole like Nashville, Carolina or Tampa. Ultimately, I appreciate Z for taking his time on the length and figures on the contract. He wants to make sure he's happy and comfortable wearing red and white - and then he can start playing his ass off again just like he did when the negotiations weren't weighing him down. Yzerman never faced this situation in the cap world. Lidstrom was the second highest paid player in the world for the 2000s and Yzerman was earning eight million to play a Draper role. Fedorov was making $10 million and Shanahan on his final contract with the wings was making $6.5 under a very low cap. The only reason Lidstrom's cap number is in the sevens is because of the 24% roll back post cap. Yes hes taken less but not dramatically less. Before Crosby's new contract, he was still top five in terms of contract, in the league. What I am saying is that Z would have to take a MASSIVE discount to make the loss of Hudler and Franzen to be worth it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Holmstrom-Datsyuk-Franzen Leino-Flip-Hudler Cleary-Helm-Sammy ?-Draper-Maltby Lidstrom-Rafalski Kronwall-Stuart Lilja-Meech Osgood Conklin The loss of Hossa is impossible to avoid, the cap is going down and it was a one time only deal that such a perfect storm of players over performing their contracts would happen. Who are you referring to here? If you're talking about Wings such as Hudler, Franzen and Sammy, then by that logic they should be let go for more reasonably priced talent. Not that I agree with that though, because I don't. Do you guys realize that Z only makes $2.95 mill? Don't patronize the majority of this board, plenty here have more hockey knowledge than you realize. The lineup I posted is hardly full of "Scrubs". And after next season the deadweight will completely be gone, with another likely decrease in the cap. Not scrubs, but not enough game-changers either. You need balance, but you also need enough top-end talent to put the puck in the net when it counts. Dats and Franzen alone are not enough on their own to propel the Wings through postseason, just like Z and Franzen alone wouldn't be enough. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ms_Hockey 0 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Ken Holland made perfectly clear that Zetterberg isn't going anywhere. He was plucked, primed, and polished by the Red Wings. The hope is that he'll be the next Red Wings bred captain. I don't know why the contract talks are taking so long - but Zetterberg himself has also expressed wishes to remain in Detroit. I'm pretty sure Holland & Hank have had talks about his career stay with the Wings. I don't see him leaving anytime soon. In short, we should all calm down. He'll be back again. And again. And again. And... well, you get the picture. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frozen-Man 144 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Z last season: 75 games, 43 goals, 93 points, +30 Z this season(Projected): 80 games, 30 goals, 75 points He was third place last season in Selke voting, behind Madden and Datsyuk. Datsyuk won by a large margain. This season, Mike Richards is having a Datsyuk like season. So its safe to assume, with a twenty point drop in production that Z won't be considered. That's silly, Madden who was runner up last year played 80 games had 20 goals and 43 points. How can you argue that Z won't be considered because of this offensive drop (even though it is a defensive award) when he would still end up with 50% more goals and almost twice as many points as the runner up. If Madden could be considered last year Z certainly can even with his lower numbers. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frozen-Man 144 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 No, instead it should be looked at in terms of value to the team... Its basically: Franzen, Hudler, Sammy vs Z We won the cup with all four of them, I prefer having three cup winners in the lineup over one. So you would prefer having Franzen, Huds, and Sammy over Lidstrom? I mean if it's just 3 over 1 and what about 2 over 1? Lebda and Maltby over Lids? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frozen-Man 144 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 I didn't say anything about a "write in", who has reading problems? The only person that can win is the TOP VOTE GETTER. Obviously the winner has to be in the top 3 because he's the top 1, but they haven't started voting yet, noone is ahead of anybody. Just because you think those 4 are having more Selke-worthy seasons doesn't mean the writers who do vote will agree with you. That seems to be the problem with most of what you're saying ... you state your thoughts as indisputable facts. And you do realize the season is only half over? Not to mention when he started the argument all he said was that Z wouldn't be considered - that really doesn't even imply being a finalist - several guys are considered that aren't finalists. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thedisappearer 291 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
egroen 384 Report post Posted January 22, 2009 What I am saying is that Z would have to take a MASSIVE discount to make the loss of Hudler and Franzen to be worth it. Signing Zetterberg does not mean Hudler and Franzen are lost... where do you get that? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
