The misconception that Datsyuk and Zetterberg are equal

[Xitium 272]

Ok, I'll play nice.

Dats is better, only because I sit in my chair flabbergasted SO MANY TIMES during a game at what Dats just did. Even when he doesn't score, you are just astounded that he got into the position he did.

[RedStormRising 7]

Is Babcock a shmuck or what?

No, but Jeff Bridges might be because it is obviously not as clear cut as he is making it out to be. What's the name of Pavel's agent? I wouldn't be surprised if it was Jeff Bridges; whom I believe needs to get off his knees as Datsyuk has a wife for that...

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Zetterbergs most prolific season was cut short by an injury. When he was injured, he had something like 40 points in his last 24 games. Playing with who? Samuelsson and Holmstrom. So no. Zetterberg doesnt need Datsyuk.

Zetterbergs having an off year by all accounts. Datsyuk is having the best of his career. Its unfair to use this season as some sort of all-time breaking point. We'll call this after next season, if it appears nothings changed.

[Namingway 146]

No, but Jeff Bridges might be because it is obviously not as clear cut as he is making it out to be. What's the name of Pavel's agent? I wouldn't be surprised if it was Jeff Bridges; whom I believe needs to get off his knees as Datsyuk has a wife for that...

[titanium2 867]

Please give me one example of Zetterberg's "leadership" that somehow puts him over the top?

And really, removing the homer glasses, if you're taking a player you're taking Gretzky 100% of the time over Yzerman.

This is example #2

The "leadership" excuse.

#3 is the language barrier

and the fourth and final reason is Hank's beard, its the ultimate trump card in this discussion.

I think Pav is the best overall forward in the game, but to be fair, it was Z's leadership, intensity and determination that probably pushed not only Datsyuk to improve his defensive game, but set the example for Filppula, Franzen, etc.

[JeffBridges 0]

Datsyuk 1050 faceoffs 57% won

Zetterberg 1054 faceoffs 53.4% won

Datsyuk takes the PP faceoffs and PK faceoffs when hes on the ice. Z takes PK faceoffs and faceoffs in his own zone because much like Draper, you can win faceoffs with your hand in your own end.

Datsyuk is superior on faceoffs.

Oh and:

The experts discussed it and determined that Datsyuk was the better two way player. We're not comparing Pahlsson and Datsyuk here, we're comparing two super star forwards who play a two-way game.

Leadership and defensive prowess, not backed by the Selke itself is what gives Z the edge?

[Namingway 146]

Datsyuk 1050 faceoffs 57% won

Zetterberg 1054 faceoffs 53.4% won

Datsyuk takes the PP faceoffs and PK faceoffs when hes on the ice. Z takes PK faceoffs and faceoffs in his own zone because much like Draper, you can win faceoffs with your hand in your own end.

Datsyuk is superior on faceoffs.

Oh and:

The experts discussed it and determined that Datsyuk was the better two way player. We're not comparing Pahlsson and Datsyuk here, we're comparing two super star forwards who play a two-way game.

Leadership and defensive prowess, not backed by the Selke itself is what gives Z the edge?

Nobody is saying Z is better. I still say they're more or less on the same page. If you think Dats is better then that's your opinion. 'nuff said.

[JeffBridges 0]

Zetterbergs most prolific season was cut short by an injury. When he was injured, he had something like 40 points in his last 24 games. Playing with who? Samuelsson and Holmstrom. So no. Zetterberg doesnt need Datsyuk.

Zetterbergs having an off year by all accounts. Datsyuk is having the best of his career. Its unfair to use this season as some sort of all-time breaking point. We'll call this after next season, if it appears nothings changed.

Zetterberg's most prolific season was 06-07...and it continued into 07-08 which resulted in a 94 point campaign. The majority of that time was spent with Datsyuk. Its no coincidence that they both had "Career years' last season while playing together. The difference is, Datsyuk has continued that playing without Zetterberg. While at the same time, Zetterberg is playing with another all star and on pace for 80 points.

Datsyuk's defense hasn't taken a hit with his increased offensive production, so this is just an "off year" for Z? Even though everytime the "Twins" are separated Zetterberg's production suffers?

Its Fedorov/Yzerman all over again.

[Namingway 146]

Zetterberg's most prolific season was 06-07...and it continued into 07-08 which resulted in a 94 point campaign. The majority of that time was spent with Datsyuk. Its no coincidence that they both had "Career years' last season while playing together. The difference is, Datsyuk has continued that playing without Zetterberg. While at the same time, Zetterberg is playing with another all star and on pace for 80 points.

Datsyuk's defense hasn't taken a hit with his increased offensive production, so this is just an "off year" for Z? Even though everytime the "Twins" are separated Zetterberg's production suffers?

Its Fedorov/Yzerman all over again.

Ok, so tell me. When Feds was at his best, was he a better leader than Yzerman because he had more goals, assists and overall better stats and was able to play D just like any other Defenceman? What was it that made Yzerman the better leader?

Edit: let me rephrase that, was Feds a better hockey player than Yzerman because his stats were better at a point?

Edited March 25, 2009 by Namingway

[Husker BigGuy 0]

Datsyuk is superior on faceoffs.

Maybe we should look at the faceoff percentage a little more closely, especially when it's as close. Is lifetime faceoff percentage the best measure?

I believe it was Z who scored something like 19 of 21 in a single game this year.

I guess whatever your opinion is makes it right.

You've been on my can't stand list ever since you nabbed Sandra Bullock in that gas station and buried her alive.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Zetterberg's most prolific season was 06-07...and it continued into 07-08 which resulted in a 94 point campaign. The majority of that time was spent with Datsyuk. Its no coincidence that they both had "Career years' last season while playing together. The difference is, Datsyuk has continued that playing without Zetterberg. While at the same time, Zetterberg is playing with another all star and on pace for 80 points.

Datsyuk's defense hasn't taken a hit with his increased offensive production, so this is just an "off year" for Z? Even though everytime the "Twins" are separated Zetterberg's production suffers?

Its Fedorov/Yzerman all over again.

Are you new to the Red Wings? When Zetterberg's 06-07 year was cut short, he spent THE ENTIRE season with Holmstom and Samuelsson. Everyone knows that. That line was crazy good, and it was the talk of the town because Zetterberg turned Homer and Sammy into legit 2nd liners.

And yeah. When Zetterberg and Hank played together last year, Datsyuk had a career year too. Fancy that.

[JeffBridges 0]

Nobody is saying Z is better. I still say they're more or less on the same page. If you think Dats is better then that's your opinion. 'nuff said.

Again, we've had since 2003 to figure this out. We've seen the twins separated, we've seen how they play together, you have the personal stats and awards, this isn't "opinion" any longer, its fact.

Bringing up leadership and baseless defense proficiencies is an attempt to close the gap between both players.

Crosby vs Malkin, Datsyuk vs Zetterberg are the easiest comparisons in the world.

[eva unit zero 271]

Datsyuk is better offensively. Zetterberg is better defensively. Overall, they are virtually even; I would probably take Zetterberg if I could only have one of them.

One thing you forget Jeff is that Dats has played most of this season with Hossa in Z's place, while Z has played as a second line shutdown center for most of this season. Think about that for a second; it means that where Dats would have benefitted from Z, he is instead benefitting from Hossa, a player of equal offensive skill. Z, OTOH, is not playing with anyone of Dats' caliber and therefore his linemates are considerably worse offensively. Plus his role shifted to that of a shutdown center, so his primary purpose is to stop the opponent from scoring. These changes in circumstance are what has led to Z's significant drop in points per game from last season. He is playing far less of an offensive role and when he plays his linemates are usually much less offensively skilled than Dats/Homer. Talking about Datsyuk for the Selke this season is just silly. For one, he shouldn't have won it last year; he will even tell you that being placed on a line with Zetterberg allowed him more offensive freedom due to Z's defense. Z should have won last year; granted, Dats was a deserving nominee last season. This season I don't think Dats has been as good defensively, however I think Z has actually been better. Either Z or Ryan Kesler should take the Selke home this season. Dats is a very good defensive forward...but he's not the best.

[JeffBridges 0]

Are you new to the Red Wings? When Zetterberg's 06-07 year was cut short, he spent THE ENTIRE season with Holmstom and Samuelsson. Everyone knows that. That line was crazy good, and it was the talk of the town because Zetterberg turned Homer and Sammy into legit 2nd liners.

And yeah. When Zetterberg and Hank played together last year, Datsyuk had a career year too. Fancy that.

Are you new to the Wings? The year Z played with Homer and Samuelsson full time was the year after the lockout, 05-06.Datsyuk played with Shanny and Draper.

In the middle of the 06-07 season, Datsyuk, Homer and Zetterberg were put together and Zetterberg was scoring at a HUGE pace. This continued into 07-08 where he scored 94 points playing full time with Datsyuk and Homer.

Anyone that can actually recall three years ago, the Datsyuk-Shanny-Draper line was terrible, had zero chemistry and Datsyuk still outscored Z.

Edited March 25, 2009 by JeffBridges

[Cern 0]

I'd put Datsyuk over Zetterberg purely on account of injury history. Dats can churn out ironman game attendance, but Zatta's always been plagued by his back.

[JeffBridges 0]

Datsyuk is better offensively. Zetterberg is better defensively. Overall, they are virtually even; I would probably take Zetterberg if I could only have one of them.

One thing you forget Jeff is that Dats has played most of this season with Hossa in Z's place, while Z has played as a second line shutdown center for most of this season. Think about that for a second; it means that where Dats would have benefitted from Z, he is instead benefitting from Hossa, a player of equal offensive skill. Z, OTOH, is not playing with anyone of Dats' caliber and therefore his linemates are considerably worse offensively. Plus his role shifted to that of a shutdown center, so his primary purpose is to stop the opponent from scoring. These changes in circumstance are what has led to Z's significant drop in points per game from last season. He is playing far less of an offensive role and when he plays his linemates are usually much less offensively skilled than Dats/Homer. Talking about Datsyuk for the Selke this season is just silly. For one, he shouldn't have won it last year; he will even tell you that being placed on a line with Zetterberg allowed him more offensive freedom due to Z's defense. Z should have won last year; granted, Dats was a deserving nominee last season. This season I don't think Dats has been as good defensively, however I think Z has actually been better. Either Z or Ryan Kesler should take the Selke home this season. Dats is a very good defensive forward...but he's not the best.

Zetterberg's linemates this season have been Sammy and Hossa for the bulk of the season. When he wasn't with Hossa, he had Franzen. If Sammy was moved down, he had Hossa and Cleary.

Datsyuk's offense improved playing with Cleary and Franzen. He was still on pace for 100 points playing with Homer and Hossa.

The point is, line mates don't matter with Datsyuk, he performs either way. And on the road, Datsyuk is effectively the "Shutdown center" you constantly refer to. I use the last San Jose blow out for example. Datsyuk nullified Thornton-Marleau, Settigutchi while Zetterberg's line finished the night a -4 against San Jose's SECOND line.

[titanium2 867]

Datsyuk's defense hasn't taken a hit with his increased offensive production, so this is just an "off year" for Z? Even though everytime the "Twins" are separated Zetterberg's production suffers?

Its Fedorov/Yzerman all over again.

Actually, this year, Z's line has drawn the Thorntons and Iginlas and what have you among the top scoring lines of the opposing teams more often than Pav's line. So yeah, Pav's defense hasn't suffered, but maybe that's because much of the time he's first line material against a team's second scoring line. Maybe that can account for some of the 22 difference in points.

[eva unit zero 271]

Zetterberg's most prolific season was 06-07...and it continued into 07-08 which resulted in a 94 point campaign. The majority of that time was spent with Datsyuk. Its no coincidence that they both had "Career years' last season while playing together. The difference is, Datsyuk has continued that playing without Zetterberg. While at the same time, Zetterberg is playing with another all star and on pace for 80 points.

You do realize Datsyuk and Hossa were together for the first four months of the season before Babcock started really experimenting with lines, right? Zetterberg spent most of that time with guys like Cleary, Samuelsson, Franzen, and Filppula while Dats was consistently between Homer and Hossa. Is that why you are so screwed up? You think Z has been with Hossa all year?

[Namingway 146]

You do realize Datsyuk and Hossa were together for the first four months of the season before Babcock started really experimenting with lines, right? Zetterberg spent most of that time with guys like Cleary, Samuelsson, Franzen, and Filppula while Dats was consistently between Homer and Hossa. Is that why you are so screwed up? You think Z has been with Hossa all year?

Haha, beat me to it

[JeffBridges 0]

You do realize Datsyuk and Hossa were together for the first four months of the season before Babcock started really experimenting with lines, right? Zetterberg spent most of that time with guys like Cleary, Samuelsson, Franzen, and Filppula while Dats was consistently between Homer and Hossa. Is that why you are so screwed up? You think Z has been with Hossa all year?

All year? Hossa and Datsyuk played together for about 30 games, 10 of those games Hossa went scoreless. Datsyuk then played with Cleary and Homer for a handful of games, Zetterberg signed his deal, the ZDH line was reunited for a few games, that didn't work, Homer got hurt, Datsyuk was paired with Franzen and Hudler/Kopecky and as of late Franzen and Samuelsson.

Datsyuk didn't play with Hossa for the majority of the season.... as a matter of fact, Datsyuk played more time with the "scrubs" Zetterberg is "Forced" to play with, as if Z playing with Franzen is so bad.

The fact remains, during the circus that is Babcock line changes, Datsyuk continued to produce, Zetterberg didn't start producing at a higher pace until signing his deal and being reunited with Pavel.

Its simple really, put Datsyuk on a line with Hudler and Cleary and he'll still outscore Zetterberg on a line with anyone else.

[titanium2 867]

And on the road, Datsyuk is effectively the "Shutdown center" you constantly refer to. I use the last San Jose blow out for example. Datsyuk nullified Thornton-Marleau, Settigutchi while Zetterberg's line finished the night a -4 against San Jose's SECOND line.

Where are you getting that info?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2008020147

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2008020672

Because I don't see that. Unless Z's linemates were Lebda and McCarty back in October or Hudler and Stuart in January.

[titanium2 867]

Datsyuk then played with Cleary and Homer for a handful of games.

Now you really lost me. When did that happen? Datsyuk with Cleary AND Homer? Cleary and Homer are rarely together on the same line for a reason, which is because they are primarily best used as a net front presence. Homer's a better passer while Cleary is a better shooter but neither are the primary option for either on any line.

[eva unit zero 271]

All year? Hossa and Datsyuk played together for about 30 games, 10 of those games Hossa went scoreless. Datsyuk then played with Cleary and Homer for a handful of games, Zetterberg signed his deal, the ZDH line was reunited for a few games, that didn't work, Homer got hurt, Datsyuk was paired with Franzen and Hudler/Kopecky and as of late Franzen and Samuelsson.

Datsyuk didn't play with Hossa for the majority of the season.... as a matter of fact, Datsyuk played more time with the "scrubs" Zetterberg is "Forced" to play with, as if Z playing with Franzen is so bad.

The fact remains, during the circus that is Babcock line changes, Datsyuk continued to produce, Zetterberg didn't start producing at a higher pace until signing his deal and being reunited with Pavel.

Its simple really, put Datsyuk on a line with Hudler and Cleary and he'll still outscore Zetterberg on a line with anyone else.

30 games of an 82 game season. That's not a huge chunk at all. And as I said....Z didn't produce as much because he was on defensive duty for more of his ice time. Z has been matched up against the opposing team's top line most games and has been in a defensive role most games. Datsyuk's job has been to score and to set up scoring plays. This has been muddied slightly since Hossa was put on Z's line, mostly to try and take advantage of defensive deficiency of top lines I would suppose.

And I agreed with the fact that Datsyuk is the better offensive player. But Zetterberg is still a better player overall.

[JeffBridges 0]

Where are you getting that info?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2008020147

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=2008020672

Because I don't see that. Unless Z's linemates were Lebda and McCarty back in October or Hudler and Stuart in January.

http://www.nhl.com/ice/boxscore.htm?id=200...bx-skater-stats

Zetterberg's "Shutdown" line let in four goals while on the ice during that game. He didn't finish a minus because he took place in much of the scoring but the point remains. Datsyuk was matched against the first line, primarily Thornton and that line was silent all night. While Z's line was walked all over by Michalek and Clowe.

[JeffBridges 0]

30 games of an 82 game season. That's not a huge chunk at all. And as I said....Z didn't produce as much because he was on defensive duty for more of his ice time. Z has been matched up against the opposing team's top line most games and has been in a defensive role most games. Datsyuk's job has been to score and to set up scoring plays. This has been muddied slightly since Hossa was put on Z's line, mostly to try and take advantage of defensive deficiency of top lines I would suppose.

And I agreed with the fact that Datsyuk is the better offensive player. But Zetterberg is still a better player overall.

You have no basis for your claims. If Hossa playing with Datsyuk was an advantage, Hank playing with Hossa should spark his stats, which it has not. You're deliberately avoiding my point that linemates do not matter with Datsyuk. Hes played with EVERYONE and never missed a step, Zetterberg has only showed glimpses of last year while playing with Datsyuk and Homer.

Apparently the reigning Selke winner no longer plays defense.. he stands at the blue line waiting for passes so he can set up his all star wingers.

This is the most asinine discussion of all time. Z and Datsyuk get the same amount of PK time, the same PP time and the same 5 on 5 time. Zetterberg is matched against the top lines on the road by choice, opposing coaches CHOOSE to have their top lines face the Z line and use their "Shutdown lines' against Datsyuk. There are very few teams in the league that use their top line to go one on one with the other teams top line, its simply not the case.

The shutdown center theory is just an excuse.