Jonathan Ericsson not afraid to fight

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Wow, Shoreline and GMR, you guys need some boxing gloves !

Anyways, I agree with both of you in different aspects.

Shoreline- you're right the term enforcer has changed greatly since the 1980s. It was a passion driven sport that caused spontaneous anger filled fights. The days of our heavyweight saying 'good luck' before a fight and having dinner after together are very new. I do miss the days when 5'10" Tie Domi would fight Probert out of true team rivalry, rather than the match-up on Hockeyfights.

I also though agree with GMR in the sense that the enforcer type has its role. Do Helm and Leino have more talent than Downey when it comes to scoring? Absolutely... they're very gifted. Does that mean in a team with several players over 30 goals that 1 player that could provide that is worth more than another for two minutes of ice time? Not necessarily... give me a guy that wears down the opponent with checking, tenacity, and grit over another 20 goal scorer.

In a perfect world we'd trade Franzen/ draft pick for Milan Lucic. He's the Brendan Shanahan of 2009.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

A real fan is what I call a tolerable and reasonable one, i.e. one that isn't so full of negativity they actually look like they enjoy watching games on occasion. At least, I thought that was the point of spending time watching hockey. Like a specific few here, all you do is piss and moan, and you specifically target negative occurrences in the game to criticize the team, which is more than obviously coming from someone who tries to come off as reasonable, yet isn't in the slightest bit.

Look, the argument 'I'm a fan, you're not' is childish and miniscule. We are all fans here or we wouldn't type in arguments; period. I do know one thing though; yes, I am a fan of the Red Wings and hope they repeat. There was a day that I couldn't change the channel for a second when the Wings were on. Now, Tiger's baseball or other sports get more attention from me. In a recent conversation at a local pub here I was chatting with some folks during the Final 4. I said, "damn, the Wings aren't even on one tv!?" The guy replied, "The Wings provide the most boring EXHIBITION season of the year. We'll turn them on in the playoffs'.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Wow, Shoreline and GMR, you guys need some boxing gloves !

Anyways, I agree with both of you in different aspects.

Shoreline- you're right the term enforcer has changed greatly since the 1980s. It was a passion driven sport that caused spontaneous anger filled fights. The days of our heavyweight saying 'good luck' before a fight and having dinner after together are very new. I do miss the days when 5'10" Tie Domi would fight Probert out of true team rivalry, rather than the match-up on Hockeyfights.

I also though agree with GMR in the sense that the enforcer type has its role. Do Helm and Leino have more talent than Downey when it comes to scoring? Absolutely... they're very gifted. Does that mean in a team with several players over 30 goals that 1 player that could provide that is worth more than another for two minutes of ice time? Not necessarily... give me a guy that wears down the opponent with checking, tenacity, and grit over another 20 goal scorer.

In a perfect world we'd trade Franzen/ draft pick for Milan Lucic. He's the Brendan Shanahan of 2009.

Lucic is a spotpicker who hardly ever fights heavies. He's earning a pretty bad reputation around fight circles for that. Shanny fought against some heavies early on in his career. Please don't compare those 2 players, although I realize you were referring to more than just their fighting ability.

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Lucic is a spotpicker who hardly ever fights heavies. He's earning a pretty bad reputation around fight circles for that. Shanny fought against some heavies early on in his career. Please don't compare those 2 players, although I realize you were referring to more than just their fighting ability.

Lol. Their fighting ability had nothing to do with it. It was the well roundedness of the player.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Lol. Their fighting ability had nothing to do with it. It was the well roundedness of the player.

Even then I don't see Lucic developing the kind of rocket shot that Shanny had. Lucic is more of a guy that will play in front of the net and get garbage goals. However, he's still young so it's hard to envision how good he'll be.

I just cringed when I saw those 2 players compared, since I love Shanny and am beginning to despise Lucic.

[Hockeymom1960 5,107]

None of your post made any sense.

First off, enforcers fight less now than they did in the 80's. Check the stats if you don't believe me.

I didn't dismiss anything. I explained that the stats you showed were true, and then dissected them for their irrelevance. You're just crying like a baby because I explained to you why your earlier post wasn't as significant as you thought it was.

You also didn't address anything that I said about enforcers setting a tempo for the rest of their team to feed off of.

Basically, you posted an incoherent paragraph, made yourself sound silly yet again, and finished by calling me a whiner who can't appreciate his team, even though that had nothing to do with my post at all. I was just pointing out my outlook on enforcers and their usefulness as it pertains to this team.

You need to stop acting like a baby and stop accusing everyone of not being real fans. That's why nobody here really likes you. You have some sense of superiority, even though there's no real foundation for it in any of your posts.

YES YES YES!!!! Finally someone saying what's been on my mind everytime Shoreline opens his mouth!!

[Guest Shoreline]

You need to come off your position on this.

No.

Did you ever stop to think that people come to this site to talk about the Wings and some of the problems they may be having? This is an internet forum where people argue with each other, right?

Did you ever stop to think that people come to this site to actually have a good time with the team they enjoy? Usually bitchfests are for politics. It's hard to see how you can possibly enjoy watching the Red Wings with how much complaining about specific things so often and fruitlessly. And logically a reasonable fan tends to focus on good things, no less, when their team is winning far more than other teams, for f***'s sake.

And I don't always complain. There's a handful of players on this team I've always said good things about as players. I just feel no need to constantly post about how great Lidstrom is or how good Datsyuk's dekes are. Those things are just a given. I appreciate them, but in doing so I don't feel the need to constantly post about them like some infant.

You just don't like my posts because you don't like anyone criticizing Ozzie's overall performance this season, because you're an Ozzie homer, and you don't see the value of having an enforcer on this team because, you don't like enforcers.

All that's fine, but to accuse people of not being real fans just because we post in goalie and enforcer threads (2 topics you don't like), makes you come off pretty badly around here.

BTW, I guess all Red Sox fans aren't real fans based on your definition of what a fan is. Like I said earlier, just about anyone who comes to this site is a real fan.

For you it looks like two extremes. Either be a complete homer and never say anything bad, or constantly take a dump all over it. Ignoring the fact that if people come to a forum to enjoy posting about their favorite team, in all likelihood most people will get tired of hearing nothing but negativity and bitching from specific individuals. If this team was sucking complete ass, you'd actually have a point that fans should be complaining as often as you (and some others, who are thankfully on ignore) do. But given it's not, there's no reason to be focused so extensively on being critical, and funniest of all, actually trying to make it sound like people SHOULD be bitching as often as you are.

The rest of your post though (Ozzie, Red Sox fans, blabla) is filled with more typical extreme garbage and not even to be taken with a grain of merit.

As for hockeymom, you're obviously far too emotional about games, so are not to be taken seriously. I've seen your "bash the f*** out of opponents" posts during GDTs, and you can join one of the few irrationals along with GMR.

ESAD, we will ultimately disagree, but your reply is more reasonable. Indeed the roles of enforcers has changed, and people like GMR get posters' ire because he can't stop whining about the same things over and over, and skimming some of his posts since when he joined, he's always whined about enforcers. You and I were in agreement, quite earlier in the season, that this team might need an enforcer given the way the Wings were being tossed about after the whistles. Now, something GMR seems not to grasp at all is that those dirty scrums mostly disappeared, without an enforcer, and the Wings kept on winning, so since my position goes with the team when they're winning, there's no reason to keep harping on s*** that makes no sense. I don't mind watching other teams with enforcers, and some of them do well with them. Wings management has done fine without this mentality, and the Wings have been the most resistant to fighting for some time now and have 4 championships to show for it. Kind of like the Ozzie debate, when it comes to enforcers and GMR, it's either he has his cake and eats it too or he persistently whines and calls people who actually enjoy watching the Wings and defend them, homers . A serious malcontent and it's hard to even believe he enjoys watching the Red Wings, which is exactly why he looks like a far bigger fan of fighting than he is of the Red Wings.

Edited April 10, 2009 by Shoreline

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

No.

Did you ever stop to think that people come to this site to actually have a good time with the team they enjoy? Usually bitchfests are for politics. It's hard to see how you can possibly enjoy watching the Red Wings with how much complaining about specific things so often and fruitlessly. And logically a reasonable fan tends to focus on good things, no less, when their team is winning far more than other teams, for f***'s sake.

For you it looks like two extremes. Either be a complete homer and never say anything bad, or constantly take a dump all over it. Ignoring the fact that if people come to a forum to enjoy posting about their favorite team, in all likelihood most people will get tired of hearing nothing but negativity and bitching from specific individuals. If this team was sucking complete ass, you'd actually have a point that fans should be complaining as often as you (and some others, who are thankfully on ignore) do. But given it's not, there's no reason to be focused so extensively on being critical, and funniest of all, actually trying to make it sound like people SHOULD be bitching as often as you are.

The rest of your post though (Ozzie, Red Sox fans, blabla) is filled with more typical extreme garbage and not even to be taken with a grain of merit.

As for hockeymom, you're obviously far too emotional about games, so are not to be taken seriously. I've seen your "bash the f*** out of opponents" posts during GDTs, and you can join one of the few irrationals along with GMR.

ESAD, we will ultimately disagree, but your reply is more reasonable. Indeed the roles of enforcers has changed, and people like GMR get posters' ire because he can't stop whining about the same things over and over, and skimming some of his posts since when he joined, he's always whined about enforcers. You and I were in agreement, quite earlier in the season, that this team might need an enforcer given the way the Wings were being tossed about after the whistles. Now, something GMR seems not to grasp at all is that those dirty scrums mostly disappeared, without an enforcer, and the Wings kept on winning, so since my position goes with the team when they're winning, there's no reason to keep harping on s*** that makes no sense. I don't mind watching other teams with enforcers, and some of them do well with them. Wings management has done fine without this mentality, and the Wings have been the most resistant to fighting for some time now and have 4 championships to show for it. Kind of like the Ozzie debate, when it comes to enforcers and GMR, it's either he has his cake and eats it too or he persistently whines and calls people who actually enjoy watching the Wings and defend them, homers . A serious malcontent and it's hard to even believe he enjoys watching the Red Wings, which is exactly why he looks like a far bigger fan of fighting than he is of the Red Wings.

You obviously have some kind of obsession with me, which is why my name was mentioned over and over in your post, so this will be my last post in response to you in this particular thread.

The fact that you can't envision how I enjoy the Wings and complain about enforcers at the same time is not my problem. I don't care what you can or can't envision. That's your problem not mine. Fact is that I can enjoy and complain about the lack of fighting at the same time, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who can do that. If I liked fighting more than the Wings, I'd never be on this forum.

Also, I don't call everyone who enjoys the Wings a homer, because then I'd be a homer. I just call out people like you who accuse others of not being real fans and crap like that.

And once again I don't care about winning in the regular season. I never said that enforcers allow a team to win more in the regular season. It feels like you keep misquoting me on that purposely, just to try to piss me off. I believe that the lack of toughness on a team over 82 games eventually catches up in the playoffs. Until I'm proven wrong on that, I'm going to keep this mindset, no matter how good we are in the regular seasons. So keep talking about winning and success in the regular season, because no one disagrees with you on that.

If we win the Cup this year, then I'll state that we don't need enfocers or toughness throughout a season to win in the playoffs. Until then, I'm right and you're wrong.

I think this pretty much sums up my whole view on this enforcer and "real fan" business that we've been going back on. As far as I know, I didn't leave anything off, as far as my belief on the issue. I'm sure that you'll respond now by misquoting me and using that to accuse me of not being a real fan, and basically the same stuff that you keep on doing.

BTW, if you're a "real" fan, how come you've spent so much time responding to a not "real" fan? Shouldn't you only be talking with "real" fans who are the "rational" posters around here?

Edited April 10, 2009 by GMRwings1983

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Last nights Habs/Bruins game was fantastic; didn't once ponder the thought of watching the game against the Preds

This years Bruins reminds me of our beloved Red Wings circa '97/'98; I am so gonna tune into the Bruins/Habs series (taking into account that the Habs will end up as the 8th seed)...It oughta be good

If Laraque would play, that means that Lucic will be dodging him for 7 games, just so he can fight with Koivu or somebody like that instead.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

If Laraque would play, that means that Lucic will be dodging him for 7 games, just so he can fight with Koivu or somebody like that instead.

GMR, come on. Koivu would just stick him in the groin and skate away like nothing happened, you know that .

As for last night, Lucic was going at anyone he thought would fight him on MTL (Kostp, Komisarek, O'Byrne, etc.) No one did, but he got awfully pissed at Komisarek and attacked him getting a 3rd man in misconduct, was a great game

[Guest Shoreline]

The fact that you can't envision how I enjoy the Wings and complain about enforcers at the same time is not my problem. I don't care what you can or can't envision. That's your problem not mine. Fact is that I can enjoy and complain about the lack of fighting at the same time, and I'm sure I'm not the only one who can do that. If I liked fighting more than the Wings, I'd never be on this forum.

Also, I don't call everyone who enjoys the Wings a homer, because then I'd be a homer. I just call out people like you who accuse others of not being real fans and crap like that.

And once again I don't care about winning in the regular season. I never said that enforcers allow a team to win more in the regular season. It feels like you keep misquoting me on that purposely, just to try to piss me off. I believe that the lack of toughness on a team over 82 games eventually catches up in the playoffs. Until I'm proven wrong on that, I'm going to keep this mindset, no matter how good we are in the regular seasons. So keep talking about winning and success in the regular season, because no one disagrees with you on that.

If we win the Cup this year, then I'll state that we don't need enfocers or toughness throughout a season to win in the playoffs. Until then, I'm right and you're wrong.

I think this pretty much sums up my whole view on this enforcer and "real fan" business that we've been going back on. As far as I know, I didn't leave anything off, as far as my belief on the issue. I'm sure that you'll respond now by misquoting me and using that to accuse me of not being a real fan, and basically the same stuff that you keep on doing.

BTW, if you're a "real" fan, how come you've spent so much time responding to a not "real" fan? Shouldn't you only be talking with "real" fans who are the "rational" posters around here?

You wouldn't ever state enforcers in any circumstance anyways. You're as hard headed as most of the people who crap all over the Wings are, and sing the same tune. The Wings won the cup last year and the only person who even played any notable minutes in the playoffs, without even "enforcing" anything, was Drake, and that's if you even call him an enforcer. But how quickly we forget, and we're right, everyone else is wrong, I'll eat crow if I can remember I already did last year.. keep complaining, blah blah. You find the most humorous reasons to *****. Good luck with that problem. Maybe you'll accept the Wings for who they are and actually enjoy watching them more than you do bitching about them.

Last nights Habs/Bruins game was fantastic; didn't once ponder the thought of watching the game against the Preds

This years Bruins reminds me of our beloved Red Wings circa '97/'98; I am so gonna tune into the Bruins/Habs series (taking into account that the Habs will end up as the 8th seed)...It oughta be good

I'm sure the B's are tired of the Habs ruining their cup dreams for the last handful of years.

[Guest Shoreline]

That could be - however I for one will enjoy watching these 2 going at each other!

You bet. I'm just going to be happy to see the intensity all around. The way the matchups are, right this minute, there are three series' in each conference I'd be watching, the exceptions being the Sharks/Blues and Caps/Rangers (though I might catch a game or two of the Caps series' to watch Ovechkin, Semin, and Green tear it up).

I really wanna see the Devils/Pens series if they play each other. That would be pretty good too.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

GMR, come on. Koivu would just stick him in the groin and skate away like nothing happened, you know that .

As for last night, Lucic was going at anyone he thought would fight him on MTL (Kostp, Komisarek, O'Byrne, etc.) No one did, but he got awfully pissed at Komisarek and attacked him getting a 3rd man in misconduct, was a great game

It'd be nice to see Lucic going after some enforcers for a change. The way he ducked Laraque earlier in the season was embarrassing.

Right now, he'd be one of the candidates for the player I most want to see KO'd in a fight. No ofense to Pronger, Iginla and Tootoo.

I'm tired of hearing about what a great fighter this guy is beating up on great scrappers like Josef Melichar.

[Guest micah]

If Laraque would play, that means that Lucic will be dodging him for 7 games, just so he can fight with Koivu or somebody like that instead.

We disagree here. Unless Laraque does something to hurt a Bruin (or the Bs are down 4-0 in the 2nd and really desperate for some jump), I don't think Looch should be fighting him. He would likely lose. Yes, standing up to Laraque would say something for him, but that's not a beatdown I'd like to see him take. He's been compared a lot to cam Neely. Neely also fought alot, but he didn't fill his card every year with top heavies. He would fight tough guys if he had to, but he didn't without reason. I'm sure you remember Neely and Kocur almost fighting, Neely wanted no part of him. Neely was a much better player than Kocur (just as Lucic is better than Laraque - though Laraque is still 10 times the hockey player that Kocur ever was, so maybe the skill desparity chasm isn't quite so wide for L and L)

Thornrton should fight Laraque again, Chara should go with him too. Not so much Lucic. I like the kid, but he isn't as good a fighter as Thornton or Chara, and those two aren't near the fighter Laraque is.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

We disagree here. Unless Laraque does something to hurt a Bruin (or the Bs are down 4-0 in the 2nd and really desperate for some jump), I don't think Looch should be fighting him. He would likely lose. Yes, standing up to Laraque would say something for him, but that's not a beatdown I'd like to see him take. He's been compared a lot to cam Neely. Neely also fought alot, but he didn't fill his card every year with top heavies. He would fight tough guys if he had to, but he didn't without reason. I'm sure you remember Neely and Kocur almost fighting, Neely wanted no part of him. Neely was a much better player than Kocur (just as Lucic is better than Laraque - though Laraque is still 10 times the hockey player that Kocur ever was, so maybe the skill desparity chasm isn't quite so wide for L and L)

Thornrton should fight Laraque again, Chara should go with him too. Not so much Lucic. I like the kid, but he isn't as good a fighter as Thornton or Chara, and those two aren't near the fighter Laraque is.

Chara is even more valuable to his team than Lucic is, so I doubt the Bruins coaches want to see Chara go with Laraque.

You're right in saying that Laraque would destroy Lucic, because Lucic pissed Laraque off more than I've ever seen him get pissed before. Lucic is smart to avoid Laraque, although he wound up looking like a wuss in the process. The bottom line is that Lucic should stop acting like tough s*** and stop being such a damn spotpicker.

[Guest micah]

Chara is even more valuable to his team than Lucic is, so I doubt the Bruins coaches want to see Chara go with Laraque.

You're right in saying that Laraque would destroy Lucic, because Lucic pissed Laraque off more than I've ever seen him get pissed before. Lucic is smart to avoid Laraque, although he wound up looking like a wuss in the process. The bottom line is that Lucic should stop acting like tough s*** and stop being such a damn spotpicker.

I can agree with all of that....but I still like Lucic! Also, the reason I mentioned Chara was not that I think he's less valuable than Lucic, it's that I think he's less klikely to get his ass beat than Lucic.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I can agree with all of that....but I still like Lucic! Also, the reason I mentioned Chara was not that I think he's less valuable than Lucic, it's that I think he's less klikely to get his ass beat than Lucic.

No, I think Chara is better. He has a better history of fighting against enforcers, although he does seem to bail out whenever it looks like he could get into trouble.

He also has a reach advantage. No point talking about it, though, unless those 2 players fight in practice and the fight is taped.