08-09 is done, and here we are, still...

[IceMunkee 15]

My point was the player being an "enforcer" doesn't make him a benefit to the team.

Heart is what I'm after, and Hossa didn't have it. That's what grinds my gears about his play in the post-season.

If an enforcer has heart, sign him up and lets start another deep cup run. If he doesn't, I don't care if he can put his fist through Pronger's gap. I don't want him on this team.

I agree on the bold. I think if I were making more sense we would have realized that awhile ago. The second statement I think You know I don't agree with. I think Hossa wanted the cup as much as anyone. I will not make excuses for his s***ty performance. Just that I am not ready to cash in on him yet.

Again the Enforcer word needs to be discarded. I defined the type we need. A cheap, young, tough, and loyal physical guy with a bite and touch of offense ability. I have two on my mind but I cannot currently remember thier names....

Well, Hossa having heart likely means he scores goals, since that's what he does best. An enforcer having heart likely means he fights, since that's what he does best. I kinda think a goal scorer might have a better chance at scoring than an enforcer.

Really the enforcer thing can only legitimately be argued entertainment-wise. Is scoring goals more entertaining or enforcing/fighting? This team has proven that they can play "tough" without having to fight.

I think I am not making much sense this late. I think we agree completely but because my wording it does not seem so. To me there is no such thing in the NHL as an enforcer. If your team has one it is like playing an atari but having the ability to get an XBox. Let's fave it atari was fun but it had to go... We had to quit living in the past. A gritty (not goony) hard-nosed take no s*** type with some offensive upside would not hurt. Absolutely not an "enforcer", that is almost as nutty as saying we should pay Cheli for another season...

[Guest Shoreline]

wrong, well, what's an enforcer to you? goon like Mitch Fritz? that I can agree with until he proves otherwise, or can Ryan Getzlaf he referred to as an enforcer at times? he has the ability to enforce behavior on the ice, see Hossa s*** his pants at the end of game 6? lol

pitts has team toughness that gets them by, yeah they are hardly a "tough team" but they got it done this year, which makes it even worse that guys like Cooke and Kunitz are able to abuse a youngster like Helm with no response whatsoever, need I remind you this is hockey? hey, how many times has Crosby been in a fight he didn't want to be in? Malkin? it's team's attitude

What do you mean abuse Helm? Last I checked, Helm led BOTH teams in hits. How the f*** is that abuse?

Secondly, an enforcer is a person who merely keeps the peace with their presence on the ice. The game is not won between the scrums. If it were, the scary Ducks that you suggest Hossa was s***ting his pants at would have made it past the 2nd round.

uhh yeah, they were, lol

No, they were not.

ATTITUDE..... TEAM TOUGHNESS... MENTALITY.... HOW CAN I STRESS THIS TO YOU?

why did Holland pick up Drake, Downey, and McCarty last year? now what good are those players to a STANLEY CUP CHAMPION TEAM?

Drake is the only of those three to play any sort of significant minutes in the playoffs. Mac played roughly 10 mins the entire finals. Average of 1 minute per game. Downey didn't play the entire playoffs. I won't deny Drake was useful for that run but Mac and Downey were not needed and suggesting they were was a major overstatement. Drake was just about entirely used for the energy he brought as a forechecker, which, at very least, keeps the puck in the opposing team's offensive zone to allow for scoring chances, or to negate the opposing team an opportunity to score -- using offense as a defense, so to speak. It had nothing to do with the fact that he'll drop the gloves or do anything in between-the-whistle skirmishes. Dunno why these specific people love to focus on those trivial aspects of the game and make them more important than they really are, but any reason to make the case for a goon on the team.. goooo Laperriere!

Edited June 14, 2009 by Shoreline

[skacore 2]

That said it'll be interesting to see what Leafs GM Burke does these next few years.

off topic from the thread but no doubt about that, I live in T.O. and the Leafs are always my "other" team, it's been tough to watch them for a while now but I can't wait for next year to start... Burke is capable of putting a team together that will make the playoffs and be incredibly exciting throughout the entire year... he sure loves his team toughness can't wait to see who the Leafs pick up

[crotty99 302]

Yea we did get roughed up by the duckies at some stage.

But who won the series?

The ducks are considered to be one of the more grittier teams in the leauge yet they didnt get past the 1st round last year or the 2nd round this year. I wonder if their boards want more Europeans.

I do agree that this team lacked the hunger this year (very obvious during the regular season). However whilst bringing in some "grit" might give us a bit more drive and hunger i don't think it would be anymore so than brining in a few more skill based players. Except you would have less skill. I think in most situations replacing Drake with Hossa would produce better results than the other way around. Hossa didn't have a great PO's though hence the words most situations

[Mike 0]

Lappy would be a nice addition and a big upgrade over Sammy. Plus, Lappy is also a right handed shot. Although I never liked that PP unit with Sammy out on the point. I really think that Stuart needs to be used on the PP more.

[Guest Shoreline]

I think I am not making much sense this late. I think we agree completely but because my wording it does not seem so. To me there is no such thing in the NHL as an enforcer. If your team has one it is like playing an atari but having the ability to get an XBox. Let's fave it atari was fun but it had to go... We had to quit living in the past. A gritty (not goony) hard-nosed take no s*** type with some offensive upside would not hurt. Absolutely not an "enforcer", that is almost as nutty as saying we should pay Cheli for another season...

I agree we need to stop living in the past but what is the use of guys like Boogaard and Barch? It's to run around and hit people just the same way McSorley did when he was with Gretzky. They don't score for s*** and they aren't even an offensive threat whatsoever. They are utilized by coaches with a penchant for using hurt/pain as an ineffective gameplan, one that need not be emulated by coaches who are focused on winning. Look at where it got them. All the way to the golf course, where all that goonish strength doesn't even help playing golf, no less hockey. Laperriere isn't aged wine that tastes good while kept cool. He's wine that's been stored in the sun for years and tastes like s***. Too much a liability, too little benefit. This team is way too good for a guy like him. He's mostly a goon who would provide entertainment for those who like retribution for the after-the-whistle stuff and like winning the petty battles that don't show up on the scoreboard.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Shoreline

[skacore 2]

What do you mean abuse Helm? Last I checked, Helm led BOTH teams in hits. How the f*** is that abuse?

Cooke was all over Helm in the 2nd half of the series and with Kunitz there was just the one incident when he landed a couple uppercuts on Helm's face

Secondly, an enforcer is a person who merely keeps the peace with their presence on the ice. The game is not won between the scrums. If it were, the scary Ducks that you suggest Hossa was s***ting his pants at would have made it past the 2nd round.

ok then yeah you were wrong before, a player can keep peace with their presence on the ice and contribute more than a sideshow for the fans

No, they were not.

clearly you're still in denial, but don't worry I bring video proof, close your eyes hunny!

Drake is the only of those three to play any sort of significant minutes in the playoffs. Mac played roughly 10 mins the entire finals. Average of 1 minute per game. Downey didn't play the entire playoffs. I won't deny Drake was useful for that run but Mac and Downey were not needed and suggesting they were was a major overstatement. Drake was just about entirely used for the energy he brought as a forechecker, which, at very least, keeps the puck in the opposing team's offensive zone to allow for scoring chances, or to negate the opposing team an opportunity to score -- using offense as a defense, so to speak. It had nothing to do with the fact that he'll drop the gloves or do anything in between-the-whistle skirmishes. Dunno why these specific people love to focus on those trivial aspects of the game and make them more important than they really are, but any reason to make the case for a goon on the team.. goooo Laperriere!

why did Holland acquire Downey and McCarty on a Cup winning team? why did Downey play all year? why did McCarty play in the playoffs? were there no better options?

Drake was effective yet he also brought an element of toughness, i'm glad we can agree on that

Drake 477 career pts in 1009 games

Lappy 316 career pts in 1001 games..... Lappy is 5 years younger and a little bigger

both can hit, both can fight, Drake's a bit better hitter, Lappy's a bit better fighter

yet Drake's effective and Lappy's a goon?

you're such a red wings homer that it's impossible to have a meaningful discussion with you.... lol... makes the boards dull

but anyways i'm done explaining this to you, you have your opinions i have mine, i prefer our '08 make up a bit more than our '09 one, hey, it won us a cup, you prefer the '09 make up..... it's all good man

[Guest Shoreline]

Cooke was all over Helm in the 2nd half of the series and with Kunitz there was just the one incident when he landed a couple uppercuts on Helm's face

Which did what exactly in terms of Helm in the playoffs. Jack. s***.

ok then yeah you were wrong before, a player can keep peace with their presence on the ice and contribute more than a sideshow for the fans

That's all Laperriere would provide. Hate to break it to you.

clearly you're still in denial, but don't worry I bring video proof, close your eyes hunny!

Ironically, people were thanking Kopecky for that. Why? Here comes Helm and Leino, and here comes the Wings wins. Hossa was non-existent for the playoffs, so that scrum didn't affect him either way. Datsyuk for the most part played fine too, despite the injury against the Hawks, which had nothing to do with the Ducks. Honestly, you really think showing a fight and scrum would signify anything more than the Wings getting into it with the Ducks which we knew would happen? You're not much into thinking critically.

why did Holland acquire Downey and McCarty on a Cup winning team? why did Downey play all year? why did McCarty play in the playoffs? were there no better options?

In Downey and Mac's case it was more a matter of what to do with them after the regular season, and in Mac's case, the finals. It's silly to me to play a player solely in the regular season and dump them off come playoff time.

Drake was effective yet he also brought an element of toughness, i'm glad we can agree on that

No more an element than Abdelkader and Helm brought. And they didn't even need to fight!

Drake 477 career pts in 1009 games

Lappy 316 career pts in 1001 games..... Lappy is 5 years younger and a little bigger

both can hit, both can fight, Drake's a bit better hitter, Lappy's a bit better fighter

yet Drake's effective and Lappy's a goon?

Drake was good at using this element of "toughness" with the Red Wings to also stay the hell out of the penalty box, something your boy Laperriere isn't so good at. Again, which is why Laperriere is a goon, because his style of play makes him a liability, versus his production, which does not fit the Wings system. They don't play that kind of high risk game for cheap thrills. This isn't the Red Wings of the 80s and early 90s anymore. Some people haven't got the memo yet.

you're such a red wings homer that it's impossible to have a meaningful discussion with you.... lol... makes the boards dull

but anyways i'm done explaining this to you, you have your opinions i have mine, i prefer our '08 make up a bit more than our '09 one, hey, it won us a cup, you prefer the '09 make up..... it's all good man

Fancy that, you think outside the collective hard-headed enforcer discussion and you're a Red Wings homer, and dull. The last sentence is so asinine I have to laugh. You prefer this makeup of a team who won the cup being physical without the "enforcer" attitude your boy Lappy would bring (I can see where we're going with Laperriere and Neil, and I bet I can find a lot more goons on your lists too) and you act like it's somehow substantially different than the 09 season. The difference between two goals does not relate to anything Laperriere or Drake would have helped achieve. All this is, is an enforcer fetish. Have a good fap.

Edit: And given how much the Wings came out flying against the Hawks after that long, grueling series against the Ducks, I'd love to see in which way the Ducks tired the Wings out. Hopefully you can provide more than a video of a scrum. It looks to me like that Ducks series not only energized the Wings, but the fans as well.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Shoreline

[Firehawk 305]

What I'd be more pissed about in regard to series wearing teams down is Betman moving the start of the SCF up. You might as well assume we played 3 7-game series in a row. Beating Chicago in 5 shoulda gotten us 1 1/2 weeks off. Instead it gets us 2 days off. That's retarded.

[elriqo28 2]

Ian Laperriere.

Dump Sammy for him.

never pick up AV's....EVER!

[IceMunkee 15]

Here are the two names I was thinking last night.

Carcillo - He had almost zero offense last season but 07-08 he was a decent scorer and a good hitter. Not to mention if he does fight, he wins. So he might bring an element of weariness to the opposing team before the hack, slash, or abuse the guys.

In 07-08 he registered 324 PIM and 24 points in 57 games. Obviously he is not available unless through trade and he would have less PIM with the Wings because of the coaching style, but he could also benefit offensively playing even with the quality of the 4th line.

Burrows- Definitly has a bigger offensive advantage. He has consistently improved offensively every year and has keep around the same PIM. 08-09 Burrows had 150 PIM and 51 pts. He also had oan average 16 minutes of ice time per game. Not bad.

Or even Backes would be a tempting offer. An offensive upside like Burrows. He sports a scary 165 PIM, 54 points, an average f 17 minutes per game.

This is the type of guy I would like to have, I am unsure if any are even available. Maybe we can find a little morsel of piss and vinegar for ourselves. If Carcillo is available, which he could be cause he went to Philly at the deadline. Not sure if the resigned him or not. He has more risk, but the reward could be worth it...

This is my type of "BMF Player" (new word for enforcer). I don't want 150 PIM's and 2 pts for the year kind of guy. We have Cheli to do all that, maybe not. I don't want someone that cannot be caged by Babs. All three of these guys are young and can learn and benefit from our system. Our systems stars maybe won't take as many slashes and chops and hacks.

edit: PS... I would like to go on record that I do not support Lappy. Not even a little. I would rather punch myself in the nuts repeatidly....

Edited June 14, 2009 by IceMunkee

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

I wouldn't mind having a guy like Colton Orr on this team. He's not a great fighter, but he hasn't been injured as much as some of the other enforcers, and he does stick up for his teammates. Neil would also be ideal and is way more talented than Orr, although harder to acquire.

I don't like Lapperierre personally, so I'm not sure how to feel if he signed here.

Boogaard would be perfect, but he's always injured and really no one ever wants to fight him, which may or may not be a good thing.

Bottom line is that some more grit and effort is definitely needed on the 3rd and 4th lines. Other than Helm, our bottom 6 forwards played hard whenever they felt like it.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Maybe not? To me... '09 team and '08 team had many differences in the way they presented themselves.. if you think maybe not... ehh.... I guess we just saw different things out there this year

Yeah, there were a few big differences.

Puck possesion

Defense

Passing

Those were horrible this year compared to last.

It's Corey Perry, you almost have to go out of your way to lose a fight to him, and I'm not even asking Rafalski to go toe to toe here, just defend yourself, tackle him or something, mind you we had 6 players on the ice to Anaheim's 5 and we were still out of our league.

Wasn't he jumped from behind? And like I said, Rafalski has played with tough guys before (Stevens, Drake last year) so how a "gritty fighting type" would have helped him is beyond me. I think he would know how to stand up for himself by now.

I don't think it's too outrageous to compare Niedermayer, Pronger, Getzlaf, and Perry to Gonchar, Orpik, Roberts, and Sykora in terms of toughness, especially when we had a 6th skater on against Anaheim. Pronger wasn't even involved so I'm not sure why he is being mentioned, it was Niedermayer, Getzlaf (hardly) and friggen Corey Perry... Pronger and Franzen just stood with each other, 5 professional athletes couldn't handle 4 professional athletes, that's what it comes down to, they weren't willing to

And that wouldn't have changed if Drake was still on the team. Hossa isn't a fighter, Rafalski isn't a fighter, and Datsyuk isn't a fighter (though he defended himself against Neids).

Last year it was Zetterberg, Lilja, and Franzen who were decking it out against Malkin, Sykora, and Roberts. Malkin isn't a fighter, and Sykora isn't a fighter. Perry is tough enough when he gets into scraps (he challenged Dallas Drake last year for f***s sake), Getzlaf is a badass, and Neids is a big guy. Once again, you are grasping at straws here.

Helm was AMAZING all playoffs, Abdelkader was really good when he played, 2 goals in 3 games in the finals and he gets benched from their on out... I actually think that's a pretty good case for gritty, tough role players contributing to the team, no?

The thing is, we have these guys on the team already.

Wasn't your point that we need more? How many more? Six? Seven? Two?

[skacore 2]

Yeah, there were a few big differences.

Puck possesion

Defense

Passing

Those were horrible this year compared to last.

Wasn't he jumped from behind? And like I said, Rafalski has played with tough guys before (Stevens, Drake last year) so how a "gritty fighting type" would have helped him is beyond me. I think he would know how to stand up for himself by now.

And that wouldn't have changed if Drake was still on the team. Hossa isn't a fighter, Rafalski isn't a fighter, and Datsyuk isn't a fighter (though he defended himself against Neids).

Last year it was Zetterberg, Lilja, and Franzen who were decking it out against Malkin, Sykora, and Roberts. Malkin isn't a fighter, and Sykora isn't a fighter. Perry is tough enough when he gets into scraps (he challenged Dallas Drake last year for f***s sake), Getzlaf is a badass, and Neids is a big guy. Once again, you are grasping at straws here.

The thing is, we have these guys on the team already.

Wasn't your point that we need more? How many more? Six? Seven? Two?

It's about attitude and how you present yourself on the ice... you need a tough mentality... having a tough player currently in your line up effects the team... No point really going on and on about it, you either get it or you don't... I am able to see the difference, some aren't... it's all opinions and what people want to believe but let me just say there is a reason that tough guys have been around and valued sooooooo long in this league

[10 Minute Misconduct 104]

its all about travis moen baby

laperiere wont come to the wings i doubt it. chris neil might but i like moen.

[skacore 2]

its all about travis moen baby

laperiere wont come to the wings i doubt it. chris neil might but i like moen.

Moen would be a good addition and maybe the best for long term since he's still young, the only thing I'm skeptical about is that he has a Cup with the Ducks, not a bad things by any means but we need guys who are going to remain hungry

[StaticWithABeat 0]

I am not an overly pro-enforcer guy but I would definitely like to see the team get bigger & stronger in general....seems like every time I turned around in the Penguins series it was Hudler/Filppula/Zetterberg/Datsyuk getting bowled over by Gill or Orpik in the offensive zone or Rafalski/Lebda getting outmuscled by an aggressive forward on a dump-&-chase.

I will be watching Boston this offseason because they are going to have a nightmare of a time signing all of their RFA's, and I would not mind poaching Byron Bitz off them.

[Doc Holiday 0]

The league is full of hypocrits; wanting to showcase skill/speed of the players, but yet once the playoffs start it's the refs putting their whistles away, and/or calling the game in a different fashion.

That's why there's a need for guys bigger than 5'10" 180 lbs with heart/determination, and a mean streak on this team...With the exception from a few players - most of our guys were getting pushed around (especially our forwards like you had already mentioned).

Who was getting pushed around?

[Wingfan24 0]

I think a guy like clarkson would be nice we would have to trade for him but he had 17 goals and put up 164 pim this season not the best fighter but i think he would be a good canadian boy to add

[Doc Holiday 0]

Pushed around/muscled off the puck/not getting pressure via physical play on the Pens Dmen/not getting to the front of the net/(more or less all the above).....Hudler, Sammy, Filppula, and Maltby in no particular order.

As you can see I've got a whole list of gripes

I don't see how adding a "Downey" type player to the roster will help get Detroit's forwards in front of the net.

The main things I saw did not have to do with physical play. It had to do with stupid mental errors and lack of any type of puck posession.

[mjlegend 155]

How many goons did Pittsburgh have this year? Just Godard, right? And how many shifts did he get to have in the playoffs?

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

How many goons did Pittsburgh have this year? Just Godard, right? And how many shifts did he get to have in the playoffs?

That's not the point. They had more grit than us throughout their roster all and that resulted in more 60 minute efforts, because that was something they were used to.

The Wings had a powder puff team all year, and in the playoffs we had a hard time playing determined over an entire game.

More toughness means more guys willing to play hard right from the word GO.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

How many goons did Pittsburgh have this year? Just Godard, right? And how many shifts did he get to have in the playoffs?

Anyone still advocating for a goon is foolish. We'll have Downey and McCarty in the minors next year for that. What people are talking about are Neil, Lappy, Moen type players. And Pittsburgh had quite a bit of them, Cooke, Staal, Talbot, Kennedy. Those are the kinda guys you win with. Add one of those guys I mentioned to Helm, Abdelkader, Cleary, a healthy Draper, and your looking pretty good.

[skacore 2]

How many goons did Pittsburgh have this year? Just Godard, right? And how many shifts did he get to have in the playoffs?

Ask yourself this:

Why was Godard even part of a Stanley Cup champion team? He's a pure goon, a throwback enforcer. Why would Pittsburgh acquire a player like this to play the entire regular season with their team? Why did he hoist the cup before core players like Letang (one of the few I remember)?

No coincidence at all I'm sure, but has Crosby not played much tougher recently than he used to? Their entire team was tougher.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

Ask yourself this:

Why was Godard even part of a Stanley Cup champion team? He's a pure goon, a throwback enforcer. Why would Pittsburgh acquire a player like this to play the entire regular season with their team? Why did he hoist the cup before core players like Letang (one of the few I remember)?

No coincidence at all I'm sure, but has Crosby not played much tougher recently than he used to? Their entire team was tougher.

Because the Pens are stupid.

They're like the only team in the league that would dress a guy like that.

Every other team is smart enough to know that a guy like Kopecky is about as much toughness as you need on a 4th line.