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08-09 is done, and here we are, still...


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#1 skacore

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 12:51 AM

...cupless without an enforcer in the line up! OK that was partially a joke but not entirely. In the offseason we added a world class player in Marian Hossa and lost Dallas Drake.

Our biggest hurdle this year in the finals was fatigue and just being beaten up and not having the energy to go 7 games against a young Pittsburgh squad, can we agree on that?

Last year we had guys like Dallas Drake, Darren McCarty, and Andreas Lilja on our squad, physical guys who can take the body and stick up for their teammates. This year we didn't have any of those 3, we had Ericsson who was a nice addition I can admit that much.

Could the fact that our players were beaten up and exhausted have anything to do with the fact that our star players were all literally beaten up? I'd imagine playing every other night for a month+ is hard enough on the body, I don't think another man pounding away at your body would help the cause.

What kind of incidents were there in last year's playoff run? McCarty answered the bell to McCormick when the Avs tried to get something going, that's as far as that went. There was that nice scrum in the finals where we had Lilja go after Sykora(?) for knocking over Ozzy, we stood our ground there.

This year? From the top of my head:

-Beachaumin wrecking Kopecky's face (big body outta playoffs...not complaining, just saying)
-Niedermayer 360 elbow to Datsyuk's head then feeding him uppercuts
-Perry filling in Rafalski and leaving plenty of visible damage to our 6 million dollar D man
-Malkin throwing a couple of punches at Z, but admittidly that wasn't all that much except a message
-Kunitz teeing off on Helm with a few uppercuts in a blow out game (may have gone unnoticed to some)

this isf****** HOCKEY show some backbone, well, first we have to acquire some backbone which I'm hoping can be done in the offseason this year, there are certainly enough tough quality players available

there was a big change in our team from last year to this year, maybe not skillwise but the attitude and how the team carried themselves, at least that's how I saw it, I'd have said the same thing if we won too (believe it or not)

Chris Neil... Ian Laperriere... '09


#2 skacore

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 12:53 AM

not to mention "tough guy" Maxime Talbot who did whatever he wanted to this series (slash Dat's ankle, spear Osgood, mock entire Red Wings' bench... score Stanley Cup GWG goal...) scores the only 2 goals in the final game... it's funny how these kind of guys shine when they feel like they are the biggest, baddest guy out on the ice? sadly..... he probably was

#3 Herr Hockey

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 12:59 AM

Adding toughness wouldn't hurt, and I'm a huge advocate of signing Laperriere. That being said, the team doesn't need to add toughness to win the cup next year. I think this years team proved that. Someone had to win last night, and it happened to be the penguins.
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#4 Detroit # 1 Fan

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:00 AM

I totally agree with Lappy and Neil. Lose Sammy and Hossa, gain them. Give Leino, Abby and Helm full time spots. Ericsson and a healthy Lilja on the back end is strong to go along with Kronner and Stuart (when they decide to turn it on)

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#5 Hiei

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:01 AM

It's not enough to have Kronner, stuart, and co out there hitting.

WE NEED REAL TRUE GRIT. Lilja is injured with post-concussion syndrome, Kopecky sucks-let him walk, and McCarty wasn't called up, as was Downey.


WE NEED REAL AND TRUE GRIT!!!!!!!! Gill doesn't get away with elbows, and Crosby would have had to answer for his hit on Z, as would have Malkin and ****-itz for their crap.




WE NEED REAL AND TRUE GRIT!!!!!!!!

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#6 Herr Hockey

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:02 AM

QUOTE (Detroit # 1 Fan @ June 14, 2009 - 02:00AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I totally agree with Lappy and Neil. Lose Sammy and Hossa, gain them. Give Leino, Abby and Helm full time spots. Ericsson and a healthy Lilja on the back end is strong to go along with Kronner and Stuart (when they decide to turn it on)


Pretty much this. I don't think we need both of Lappy and Neil though. I prefer Lappy. I've always had this sort of irrational disliking for Neil, and as much as I try, I can't lose it. I might also suggest losing Hudler and Hossa instead of Sammy and Hossa. At least with Hudler going we'd probably get a 1st round pick. Sammy and a 1st is better than Hudler IMO.
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#7 Doc Holiday

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:04 AM

Fact: Talbot's goals had nothing to do with his toughness.
Fact: Helm was our biggest energy guy. And he showed why.
Fact: The Anaheim series was tough not only because they have physical forwards, but because every game was difficult to win, which gave our players serious fatigue.
Fact: Talbot's "mocking" was petty, and it did nothing. Who cares?


-Beachaumin wrecking Kopecky's face (big body outta playoffs...not complaining, just saying)
A guy like Drake would have been nice here.
-Niedermayer 360 elbow to Datsyuk's head then feeding him uppercuts
A guy like Drake wouldn't have been on the ice at that stage.
-Perry filling in Rafalski and leaving plenty of visible damage to our 6 million dollar D man
See above.
-Malkin throwing a couple of punches at Z, but admittidly that wasn't all that much except a message
That had nothing to do with enforcers.
-Kunitz teeing off on Helm with a few uppercuts in a blow out game (may have gone unnoticed to some)
It was 3-0 in the second at that stage. The game wasn't exactly over, and Helm made the right move in letting their team shoot themselves in the foot. Helm was fine and Detroit won 5-0.

Any argument involving Lilja and what he could have done should be discarded. The guy is on the roster.

If Hossa had enough heart out there we would have won in five or six games. Once again not because of enforcers.

Sure, we can cherrypick and make assertions based on certain things we saw, but the enforcer mantra is crap. Rafalski's, Lidstrom's, Datsyuk's, Ericsson's, anyone's injury had nothing to do with the "toughness" of the opposition.

I'd like to acquire a guy with heart this offseason. But him being "tough" has s*** to do with it.

#8 IceMunkee

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:11 AM

I have not thought about it at all until I read the OP's post. This is what today has been, differant prospectives are brought to light for me.

I agree. I have been kinda on the fence saying we don't really need an enforcer, but I would enjoy one. So now that I am off that fence and in your yard playing bocce ball, who?

I would like someone tough with an offensive side. Let's face a straight up enforcer like the days of old are gone. We need to make it worth it and get someone that has an offensive upside. Not a dirty goon type either, a loyal energy filled ball buster...

Am I asking to much?
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#9 IceMunkee

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:15 AM

QUOTE (Doc Holiday @ June 14, 2009 - 02:04AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fact: Talbot's goals had nothing to do with his toughness.
Fact: Helm was our biggest energy guy. And he showed why.
Fact: The Anaheim series was tough not only because they have physical forwards, but because every game was difficult to win, which gave our players serious fatigue.
Fact: Talbot's "mocking" was petty, and it did nothing. Who cares?


-Beachaumin wrecking Kopecky's face (big body outta playoffs...not complaining, just saying)
A guy like Drake would have been nice here.
-Niedermayer 360 elbow to Datsyuk's head then feeding him uppercuts
A guy like Drake wouldn't have been on the ice at that stage.
-Perry filling in Rafalski and leaving plenty of visible damage to our 6 million dollar D man
See above.
-Malkin throwing a couple of punches at Z, but admittidly that wasn't all that much except a message
That had nothing to do with enforcers.
-Kunitz teeing off on Helm with a few uppercuts in a blow out game (may have gone unnoticed to some)
It was 3-0 in the second at that stage. The game wasn't exactly over, and Helm made the right move in letting their team shoot themselves in the foot. Helm was fine and Detroit won 5-0.

Any argument involving Lilja and what he could have done should be discarded. The guy is on the roster.

If Hossa had enough heart out there we would have won in five or six games. Once again not because of enforcers.

Sure, we can cherrypick and make assertions based on certain things we saw, but the enforcer mantra is crap. Rafalski's, Lidstrom's, Datsyuk's, Ericsson's, anyone's injury had nothing to do with the "toughness" of the opposition.

I'd like to acquire a guy with heart this offseason. But him being "tough" has s*** to do with it.

I like that you think an enforcer is "crap". Yet you stand by your opinion of one single player having "heart" as winning 5-6 more games. That is jaded. Not that the two opinions relate really but to me it shows the wieght of your opinion...

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#10 ashenhigh

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:15 AM

Ian Laperriere.

Dump Sammy for him.

#11 Doc Holiday

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:18 AM

QUOTE (IceMunkee @ June 14, 2009 - 02:15AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I like that you think an enforcer is "crap". Yet you stand by your opinion of one single player having "heart" as winning 5-6 more games. That is jaded. Not that the two opinions relate really but to me it shows the wieght of your opinion...


Did I say that?

QUOTE
but the enforcer mantra is crap


Do you know what I mean when I say that? I mean that the idea that this team will go nowhere without an enforcer is crap.

Thanks for picking that from my entire post, though.

#12 skacore

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:30 AM

QUOTE (Doc Holiday @ June 14, 2009 - 02:04AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Fact: Talbot's goals had nothing to do with his toughness.
Fact: Helm was our biggest energy guy. And he showed why.
Fact: The Anaheim series was tough not only because they have physical forwards, but because every game was difficult to win, which gave our players serious fatigue.
Fact: Talbot's "mocking" was petty, and it did nothing. Who cares?


-Beachaumin wrecking Kopecky's face (big body outta playoffs...not complaining, just saying)
A guy like Drake would have been nice here.
-Niedermayer 360 elbow to Datsyuk's head then feeding him uppercuts
A guy like Drake wouldn't have been on the ice at that stage.
-Perry filling in Rafalski and leaving plenty of visible damage to our 6 million dollar D man
See above.
-Malkin throwing a couple of punches at Z, but admittidly that wasn't all that much except a message
That had nothing to do with enforcers.
-Kunitz teeing off on Helm with a few uppercuts in a blow out game (may have gone unnoticed to some)
It was 3-0 in the second at that stage. The game wasn't exactly over, and Helm made the right move in letting their team shoot themselves in the foot. Helm was fine and Detroit won 5-0.

Any argument involving Lilja and what he could have done should be discarded. The guy is on the roster.

If Hossa had enough heart out there we would have won in five or six games. Once again not because of enforcers.

Sure, we can cherrypick and make assertions based on certain things we saw, but the enforcer mantra is crap. Rafalski's, Lidstrom's, Datsyuk's, Ericsson's, anyone's injury had nothing to do with the "toughness" of the opposition.

I'd like to acquire a guy with heart this offseason. But him being "tough" has s*** to do with it.

I'm not going to pick apart your individual points but basically what I want to change is the team's attitude, not specifically just picking up 1 individual tough player. I truly feel like a group of guys like Downey, McCarty, and Drake influenced last year's team, we played tougher and showed no signs of intimidation, don't get me wrong we played tough at times this postseason as well but (to me), it wasn't the same. The fact that we came up just short may or may not have been a coincidence but the fact of the matter is that we did come up short, and it's not crazy to say we were outplayed and were pretty fortunate in a couple of our wins.

I want to change the attitude of the team so that Rafalski doesn't get tuned up by Corey Perry, how? I don't give a F but somehow other teams manage to keep their star players from getting their face's filled, we can't really say that this year.

Talbot, a grinder type of guy, an agitator you could say, managed to score 2 goals in the Stanley Cup final game and win the Pens the cup. You can't say his toughness wasn't a factor because you could tell the way he presented himself on the ice that he felt like he ran the show, and he did! Nobody put him in his place when he slashed Datsyuk's injured ankle, or speared our (at the time) Conn Smythe calibre goaltender, the guy felt like a GOD out there. I have no proof to this and you have no proof against it, that's just my theory, and hey, he did score the 2 big goals so something gave him that little boost.

There's always the debate toughness vs. skill and I don't want to start that, I don't want to sacrifice skill, I just want to add an element of REAL toughness. Players are available this offseason, I always hear that they aren't... they are...

Hopefully we get it done

#13 Shoreline

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:34 AM

Ironically, 2 Wings goals and this enforcer debate doesn't exist. Gee, you think an enforcer would have scored those two goals? No. They'd not even be playing. There goes that. Perhaps Hossa might have scored those two? Even though it didn't happen, I like my chances better with that one by far.

#14 IceMunkee

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:35 AM

QUOTE (Doc Holiday @ June 14, 2009 - 02:18AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Did I say that?



Do you know what I mean when I say that? I mean that the idea that this team will go nowhere without an enforcer is crap.

Thanks for picking that from my entire post, though.

I read your entire post. I know what you meant. Not that I need to validate what I do or do not say. Your an intelligent poster with whom I have a disagreeing opinion. I agree that an enforcer or the lack of would destroy this team, we are still the best team in the NHL. I just think the OP makes a good point that it may have helped. When you may say an enforcer will not make this team win but you say one player having "heart" could result in 5-6 wins I just have a hard time with understand the thought process.
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#15 skacore

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:41 AM

QUOTE (Shoreline @ June 14, 2009 - 02:34AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ironically, 2 Wings goals and this enforcer debate doesn't exist. Gee, you think an enforcer would have scored those two goals? No. They'd not even be playing. There goes that. Perhaps Hossa might have scored those two? Even though it didn't happen, I like my chances better with that one by far.

This thread just went right over your head, you obviously didn't get the jist of what I'm saying. I was going to make this thread regardless if we won or not but I would of had to change the title smile.gif

You didn't think the team showed less bite this year than last year in the playoffs? The finals specifically...?

#16 IceMunkee

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:42 AM

QUOTE (Shoreline @ June 14, 2009 - 02:34AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Ironically, 2 Wings goals and this enforcer debate doesn't exist. Gee, you think an enforcer would have scored those two goals? No. They'd not even be playing. There goes that. Perhaps Hossa might have scored those two? Even though it didn't happen, I like my chances better with that one by far.

This is why I think we need to change our vocabulary on the word "enforcer". They barely exist anymore and the will be nonexistant soon enough. I don't want a guy that slashes an injured star player's foot. I want a player who will have a "talk" with the player who will. Maybe we could change the word enforcer to "High Energy, Fearless, Loyal, Team Loving, Hard Hitting, s*** Talking, Place Putting, Goal Scoring Ability Having, Forward. Wow that is a mouthful. The point I am trying to make in my current state of sleep deprivation is that enforcer is not what we need to BMF forward...
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#17 Doc Holiday

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:43 AM

QUOTE (IceMunkee @ June 14, 2009 - 02:35AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I read your entire post. I know what you meant. Not that I need to validate what I do or do not say. Your an intelligent poster with whom I have a disagreeing opinion. I agree that an enforcer or the lack of would destroy this team, we are still the best team in the NHL. I just think the OP makes a good point that it may have helped. When you may say an enforcer will not make this team win but you say one player having "heart" could result in 5-6 wins I just have a hard time with understand the thought process.


My point was the player being an "enforcer" doesn't make him a benefit to the team.

Heart is what I'm after, and Hossa didn't have it. That's what grinds my gears about his play in the post-season.

If an enforcer has heart, sign him up and lets start another deep cup run. If he doesn't, I don't care if he can put his fist through Pronger's gap. I don't want him on this team.

QUOTE (skacore)
I'm not going to pick apart your individual points but basically what I want to change is the team's attitude, not specifically just picking up 1 individual tough player. I truly feel like a group of guys like Downey, McCarty, and Drake influenced last year's team, we played tougher and showed no signs of intimidation, don't get me wrong we played tough at times this postseason as well but (to me), it wasn't the same. The fact that we came up just short may or may not have been a coincidence but the fact of the matter is that we did come up short, and it's not crazy to say we were outplayed and were pretty fortunate in a couple of our wins.


You are not wrong in saying we were forunate in a lot of our wins in the season. They were outplayed, which wasn't the case last post-season, but I do think there are other factors instead of the "tough" element missing.

QUOTE (skacore)
I want to change the attitude of the team so that Rafalski doesn't get tuned up by Corey Perry, how? I don't give a F but somehow other teams manage to keep their star players from getting their face's filled, we can't really say that this year.


How many teams' star players are their tougher players? The Ducks had the toughest first line of the NHL, and no matter how many enforcers Detroit has the outcome is the same for that game six loss.

QUOTE (skacore)
Talbot, a grinder type of guy, an agitator you could say, managed to score 2 goals in the Stanley Cup final game and win the Pens the cup. You can't say his toughness wasn't a factor because you could tell the way he presented himself on the ice that he felt like he ran the show, and he did! Nobody put him in his place when he slashed Datsyuk's injured ankle, or speared our (at the time) Conn Smythe calibre goaltender, the guy felt like a GOD out there. I have no proof to this and you have no proof against it, that's just my theory, and hey, he did score the 2 big goals so something gave him that little boost.


Want to know what gave him a boost?

First: free puck in front of the goaltender and a stick-waving Kronwall.
Second: Free path to the net and a burst of speed.

How did he "impose himself" on the Wings in either of those plays?

QUOTE (skacore)
There's always the debate toughness vs. skill and I don't want to start that, I don't want to sacrifice skill, I just want to add an element of REAL toughness. Players are available this offseason, I always hear that they aren't... they are...

Hopefully we get it done


It would be nice, but not vital. Like I said before heart comes before toughness and skill.

#18 skacore

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:45 AM

Please forget I ever mentioned the term "enforcer", I said that as a joke because that statement that we've never won the Cup without one has gone around and around on the boards for a while. I'm talking about a legit tough, gritty hockey player who can take a regular shift, no questions asked. A guy who will shut Talbot's yap in a blowout game yet still be a part of our PK, not a friggen' goon. Ian Laperriere, for example.

#19 Shoreline

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:56 AM

QUOTE (IceMunkee @ June 13, 2009 - 11:35PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I read your entire post. I know what you meant. Not that I need to validate what I do or do not say. Your an intelligent poster with whom I have a disagreeing opinion. I agree that an enforcer or the lack of would destroy this team, we are still the best team in the NHL. I just think the OP makes a good point that it may have helped. When you may say an enforcer will not make this team win but you say one player having "heart" could result in 5-6 wins I just have a hard time with understand the thought process.

Well, Hossa having heart likely means he scores goals, since that's what he does best. An enforcer having heart likely means he fights, since that's what he does best. I kinda think a goal scorer might have a better chance at scoring than an enforcer.

Really the enforcer thing can only legitimately be argued entertainment-wise. Is scoring goals more entertaining or enforcing/fighting? This team has proven that they can play "tough" without having to fight.

The last real bang-around + scoring-type guy the Wings had in the forward position was Bertuzzi and that experiment didn't go very well, simply because his type of play is not what the Wings style caters to. The only thing left is to completely change the Wings style of play. Blowing up a team that just made it to Game 7 of the finals and won the cup the previous year isn't going to sound very smart.

QUOTE (skacore @ June 13, 2009 - 11:41PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
This thread just went right over your head, you obviously didn't get the jist of what I'm saying. I was going to make this thread regardless if we won or not but I would of had to change the title smile.gif

You didn't think the team showed less bite this year than last year in the playoffs? The finals specifically...?

Well, I found your post in the middle of my reply to the last one, but I'll point out, again, that the only legitimate argument for the enforcer type is related to entertainment. Usually when people get pissed and want an enforcer type is following an overreaction to an after-the-whistle scrum. No logical coach is going to react to knee-jerk s*** like that. Especially with the Wings system.

The Wings don't need to get tougher to battle cheap shots or after-the-whistle scrums. There's no way in hell that determines the outcome of a game enough to put a gameplan around, at least, not for the playoffs. Who was the Penguins enforcer exactly? Crosby? Malkin? Kunitz? Orpik? Looks like they didn't need one either. They just played with an edge and had the energy/health to complete 7 games with a win. And of course, last playoffs the Wings weren't worn down battling injuries and slumps with their top scorers and defenders. It's only because I don't give two craps about "speculation" related topics surrounding who the Wings are going to sign that's why I have not went into the thread to completely assail those who think Laperriere is going to do two s***s for this team. <- lol @ that.

Lastly, our players were not beaten up. Groin injuries are the result of wear and tear and lots of games in a short span. Or a spear in the nuts, which, having an enforcer wouldn't have solved or prevented anyways. (*enforcer shakes their fist from the press box*) These players mentioned like Niedermayer, Perry, Kunitz, Malkin, etc., are not enforcers. They are goal scorers who play with that bit of edge. We have those too. Stuart, Kronwall, Ericsson, Datsyuk, Helm, Abdelkader (asterisk for the kader), and hell, even Hossa could hit and play with that edge and just didn't.

#20 skacore

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Posted 14 June 2009 - 01:57 AM

QUOTE (Doc Holiday @ June 14, 2009 - 02:43AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You are not wrong in saying we were forunate in a lot of our wins in the season. They were outplayed, which wasn't the case last post-season, but I do think there are other factors instead of the "tough" element missing.

The point I was making is that the difference between the '08 team and '09 team wasn't just 2 Red Wing goals, it was beyond that.

QUOTE (Doc Holiday @ June 14, 2009 - 02:43AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
How many teams' star players are their tougher players? The Ducks had the toughest first line of the NHL, and no matter how many enforcers Detroit has the outcome is the same for that game six loss.

Nature vs. nurture, you hang out and practice with tougher players who know how to stand up for themselves and it rubs off on you. We did OK in the big scrum last year in the finals when the Pens had some big boys out there like Roberts and Orpik. Corey... Perry... beat the s*** out of Rafalski... I could write a book on the many different ways to prevent that from happening.

QUOTE (Doc Holiday @ June 14, 2009 - 02:43AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
It would be nice, but not vital. Like I said before heart comes before toughness and skill.

Is it crazy to think a tougher team might give our players a bit of a mental boost? You can show all the heart you want, but if you're body is not capable of doing something it's not going to happen regardless.





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