Where does Mike Bossy rate all time?

[eva unit zero 271]

I wasn't comparing Neely to Bossy, sheesh -- just that guys with shortened careers tend to get overrated, while guys with long careers sometimes gets underrated -- hell, look at Chris Chelios -- I get laughed at sometimes when I talk about how good he is (was).

Uhhh, Bossy was playing with a much better team than Jagr ever was. He easily tops Bossy offensively, it just matters how great you think Bossy was defensively.

Team, yes. Linemates, no. Bossy was never playing with linemates who were offensively as good as Lemieux and Francis. Yes, Bossy had Potvin on defense. Jagr had in his time in Pittsburgh Larry Murphy, and later guys like Kevin Hatcher and Jason Woolley. No, they aren't Potvin offensively...but Gillies and Trottier are not Francis and Lemieux offensively.

Offensively, it's close and Jagr could be argued as better. But Jagr was one of the worst defensive forwards in the league, especially among top-six forwards, and had no physical game whatsoever, despite his size. Bossy was very good defensively and played well physically. Even if you rate Jagr ahead of Bossy offensively, he wasn't so much better there that Bossy's advantages in other areas are snuffed out.

[egroen 384]

Team, yes. Linemates, no. Bossy was never playing with linemates who were offensively as good as Lemieux and Francis. Yes, Bossy had Potvin on defense. Jagr had in his time in Pittsburgh Larry Murphy, and later guys like Kevin Hatcher and Jason Woolley. No, they aren't Potvin offensively...but Gillies and Trottier are not Francis and Lemieux offensively.

Offensively, it's close and Jagr could be argued as better. But Jagr was one of the worst defensive forwards in the league, especially among top-six forwards, and had no physical game whatsoever, despite his size. Bossy was very good defensively and played well physically. Even if you rate Jagr ahead of Bossy offensively, he wasn't so much better there that Bossy's advantages in other areas are snuffed out.

You are seriously overrating Francis if you think he was boosting Jagr's points and not the other way around. Lemieux of course, but except for the one season they played on separate lines (played less than 50 games together). Jagr's other 4 scoring titles had little to do with his linemates:

Look at his top two teammates from the other years he won the scoring title. These Pens weren't the stacked offensive teams from earlier in the decade.

94-95 Francis and Sandstrom

97-98 Francis and Stu Barnes

98-99 Straka and German Titov

99-00 Kovalev and Lang, but they only had 65/66 points in full seasons. Jagr played 63 games and still won the title with 96 points.

I could definitely put Bossy ahead of Jagr, and I by default usually do (Jagr is just not that likable and essentially a cherry-picker) but it's tough looking at numbers and the fact Jagr has played at a higher level (offensively) and for much longer. Bossy was better all-around -- but looking at stats here, Jagr beats him hands-down offensively when comparing same years and then has almost ten more years of great play on top of it (also led Omsk to a championship in the lockout year). Bossy played a decent two-way game, but surely not at the level of Trottier, and I'm not sure that really can narrow that gap. Jagr's longevity is impressive, in his mid-30s, he was a hair away from winning the Art Ross and Hart. Won a Hart and was probably robbed of two more (by Pronger and Thornton), had an additional two more runner-ups and had two more top 4 finishes -- Bossy only finished with a 3rd and 4th for the Hart, with Potvin and Trottier usually considered more valuable.

Jagr may not have played "physical" (and neither did Bossy) but was next to impossible to knock off the puck, dominating during the clutch & grab years when he would have 1-2 guys draped over him.

I guess it just comes down to: Was Bossy's two way play strong enough to over-come not only a higher offensive peak, but 8 more good years on top of it?

Edited June 21, 2009 by egroen

[eva unit zero 271]

You are seriously overrating Francis if you think he was boosting Jagr's points and not the other way around. Lemieux of course, but except for the one season they played on separate lines (played less than 50 games together). Jagr's other 4 scoring titles had little to do with his linemates:

Look at his top two teammates from the other years he won the scoring title. These Pens weren't the stacked offensive teams from earlier in the decade.

94-95 Francis and Sandstrom

97-98 Francis and Stu Barnes

98-99 Straka and German Titov

99-00 Kovalev and Lang, but they only had 65/66 points in full seasons. Jagr played 63 games and still won the title with 96 points.

I could definitely put Bossy ahead of Jagr, and I by default usually do (Jagr is just not that likable and essentially a cherry-picker) but it's tough looking at numbers and the fact Jagr has played at a higher level (offensively) and for much longer. Bossy was better all-around -- but looking at stats here, Jagr beats him hands-down offensively when comparing same years and then has almost ten more years of great play on top of it (also led Omsk to a championship in the lockout year). Bossy played a decent two-way game, but surely not at the level of Trottier, and I'm not sure that really can narrow that gap. Jagr's longevity is impressive, in his mid-30s, he was a hair away from winning the Art Ross and Hart. Won a Hart and was probably robbed of two more (by Pronger and Thornton), had an additional two more runner-ups and had two more top 4 finishes -- Bossy only finished with a 3rd and 4th for the Hart, with Potvin and Trottier usually considered more valuable.

Jagr may not have played "physical" (and neither did Bossy) but was next to impossible to knock off the puck, dominating during the clutch & grab years when he would have 1-2 guys draped over him.

I guess it just comes down to: Was Bossy's two way play strong enough to over-come not only a higher offensive peak, but 8 more good years on top of it?

Ron Francis is a point-per-game player for his career. There are some GREAT offensive players who played in the same era who can't claim the same. Francis also put up great offensive numbers before he was a Penguin, and solid numbers after he left the Burgh even though he was declining and playing with second-line wingers. You make it out like Francis was some second liner who Jagr pushed to 120 points, when Francis was a genuine top-notch playmaker. It's like saying Brett Hull was a phenomenal goal scorer because he scored so many goals in the early 90s. What happened to him when the team traded Adam Oates? His goal scoring dropped considerably. Does that mean he wasn't a great player? No. Does it mean Oates played a big part in his goal scoring numbers? The evidence certainly says so. Francis played less of a part in Jagr's offense, but Jagr still played many of his best seasons with a great playmaking center who was also Selke-caliber. Bossy didn't have that, and he was better defensively than Jagr from start to finish. Jagr never learned defense. Bossy was better defensively in his rookie year (and got better over time) than Jagr was in any single season of his career.

[Coolio Mendez 7]

The most dominant goal scorer in NHL history IMO.

Highest goals/game in NHL history...and the best shooting percentage of all players with 500 or more goals.

9 straight 50 goal seasons

The man who broke Rocket Richard's playoff goal record (before he was eventually passed by Gretzky)

[Nev 1,085]

Great thread - one of the best in a while. I never saw the Islanders play, so I can't comment on Bossy, but I have to agree that people under-rate Jagr. Hull for example, he was just a great goalscorer and not the kind of player to dominate a game. Jagr on the other hand, when he had a fire lit under his ass, he was just unstoppable. 4 x 100 point seasons in the dead-puck era? Thats phenomonal. Thornton doesn't get traded to SJ, and he wins another (highly deserved) MVP with the Rags.

Since it was brought up, I'm interested in seeing your LW top 5 lists.

[egroen 384]

Great thread - one of the best in a while. I never saw the Islanders play, so I can't comment on Bossy, but I have to agree that people under-rate Jagr. Hull for example, he was just a great goalscorer and not the kind of player to dominate a game. Jagr on the other hand, when he had a fire lit under his ass, he was just unstoppable. 4 x 100 point seasons in the dead-puck era? Thats phenomonal. Thornton doesn't get traded to SJ, and he wins another (highly deserved) MVP with the Rags.

Since it was brought up, I'm interested in seeing your LW top 5 lists.

1) Bobby Hull

2) Ted Lindsay

That's easy, and then it gets tough.

Do they have to be NHLers? Because Kharlamov is viewed by many as the greatest russian player ever. Firsov is another russian left winger that should be in the discussion.

Delvecchio and Abel sometimes played left wing - but I'll keep them out.

3) Frank Mahovlich

4-8) Aurel Joliat; Dickie Moore; Cy Denneny; Toe Blake; John Bucyk

Ovechkin has a good shot of being at the top of the list by the time he is through.

Eva Unit Zero:

Ron Francis is a point-per-game player for his career. There are some GREAT offensive players who played in the same era who can't claim the same. Francis also put up great offensive numbers before he was a Penguin, and solid numbers after he left the Burgh even though he was declining and playing with second-line wingers. You make it out like Francis was some second liner who Jagr pushed to 120 points, when Francis was a genuine top-notch playmaker. It's like saying Brett Hull was a phenomenal goal scorer because he scored so many goals in the early 90s. What happened to him when the team traded Adam Oates? His goal scoring dropped considerably. Does that mean he wasn't a great player? No. Does it mean Oates played a big part in his goal scoring numbers? The evidence certainly says so. Francis played less of a part in Jagr's offense, but Jagr still played many of his best seasons with a great playmaking center who was also Selke-caliber. Bossy didn't have that, and he was better defensively than Jagr from start to finish. Jagr never learned defense. Bossy was better defensively in his rookie year (and got better over time) than Jagr was in any single season of his career.

Jagr produced at that level with or without Francis -- just like Oates racked up the assists with or without Hull.

Trottier (a lot stronger defensively and finished in the top 5 in assists more times than Francis) was twice the player that Francis was, so was Potvin.

Edited June 22, 2009 by egroen