The Bertuzzi & Moore incident

[Holmstrom96 347]

So essentially, if i'm walking down the street and you are walking in the opposite direction and right as we get close enough to each other I lay you the f*** out, you're saying that isn't as bad simply because you saw me coming....or that I hit you from the front?

People need to gain some clarity here.

The fact that McCarty was facing Lemieux does not mean beyond a shadow of a doubt that Lemieux knew there was a haymaking right hand about to land on his face.

Both players got sucker punched. The angle of attack doesn't change that fact.

You do understand the difference between NHL HOCKEY and walking northbound on the west side of Woodward, right? Let me explain it:

- Hockey has fighting, and it's allowed (although penalized), if you see Darren McCarty skating at you with hellfire in his eyes you better drop the gloves or turtle, your choice

- When you're walking up Woodward fighting is not allowed (although muggings are, although they are discouraged)

You see the difference, hockey is a sport with fighting, walking is not.

Now, do you see the difference between a quick sucker punch from the front where you fall down and a sucker punch from behind where you're Stone Cold Steve Austin-ed into the ice head first?

When you start to understand the difference from these things you will see clarity in your world.

A sucker punch is not a sucker punch, you have to take more into account.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Holmstrom96

[esteef 2,679]

Esteef: Glad to see your true colors, and it's too bad that you think it is okay to have someone's career ended for a borderline body check. ******* despicable.

He should've just ripped his head clean off!

esteef

[Doc Holiday 0]

He should've just ripped his head clean off!

esteef

Hmmmm.

I think I've been had.

[esteef 2,679]

Hmmmm.

I think I've been had.

[newfy 695]

Hmmmm.

I think I've been had.

Obviously you're not going to see this incident the way some of us do here. I mean it did have physical contact and some violence, of course you're not going to like it.

[cjm502 165]

A brawl didn't break out befor ethe Lemieux McCarty incident. Two players (Forsberg and Larionov iirc) had eachother in headlocks. That's it. Then McCarty popped the unsuspecting Lemieux. Should Lemieux have expected it? Probably. Should Mac, the one of the two with a rep as a fighter have given Lemieux a chance to square up and prepare for the fight? Definately.

What brawl are you watching? They were the second to last ones to fight, with Vernon and Roy being last.

[Doc Holiday 0]

What brawl are you watching? They were the second to last ones to fight, with Vernon and Roy being last.

Shanahan and Foote?

Obviously you're not going to see this incident the way some of us do here. I mean it did have physical contact and some violence, of course you're not going to like it.

I don't like it because no one currently in the NHL deserves what Moore got, and despite Bertuzzi not meaning to break his neck he put Moore in a position where it was VERY LIKELY he would suffer a serious injury.

The sucker punch by itself would have been out of line, but at least Moore would have been able to play again, and it would just be seen as Bert throwing a sucker punch and that's it. Bertuzzi ended a career, and no matter what you do you cannot gloss over that fact. It was not a "Freak injury" because Bertuzzi did not do something "normal" by hockey standards.

Lilja's injury was a "freak injury" because fights are standard in hockey (NOT ON THE WINGS LOLOL). A body slam from behind with the victim's head pushed straight into the ice is not standard. It hasn't even happened before.

Also, you don't even undestand the context in which I said "I've been had". Otherwise you wouldn't have bothered to respond to that post.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Doc Holiday

[cjm502 165]

Shanahan and Foote?

Eh, not really. Shanny and Foote were "fighting" with other people, but they were the last pair.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Aaron Ward seems to be a magnet for cheapshots.

No doubt. There was actually a brawl once when Probie was going after Ward (who obviously wanted no part of that) and Jamie Pushor ended up taking on Ciccone and getting TKO'd. Not a pretty site for Wings fans.

here it is:

[Holmstrom96 347]

No doubt. There was actually a brawl once when Probie was going after Ward (who obviously wanted no part of that) and Jamie Pushor ended up taking on Ciccone and getting TKO'd. Not a pretty site for Wings fans.

here it is:

We don't agree on a couple points, but these video's you're coming up with are awesome.

[Doc Holiday 0]

I miss Pushor.

[Electrophile 3,554]

It's like headhunting Zetterberg out of the game and then thinking you've "manned up" by fighting Maltby. Moore's ***** ass got what he deserved.

Oh yes, he absolutely deserved a broken neck. That is absolutely the only thing that could have happened to him to somehow make up for the borderline body check he leveled on Naslund. Not a broken nose or a busted lip or a few missing teeth. Nope. Broken vertebrae was the only possible outcome that worked.

Absolutely. Broken neck. Way to go, dude!

Are you fraking kidding me?! People can die or become paralyzed from broken necks - if either of those scenarios happened as a result of this would you still say he deserved it? Or are you only saying he deserved it because he didn't die and can still walk? I don't care what the hell he did to Naslund, no one deserves a broken ******* neck.

Edit: You better be joking.

Edited August 18, 2009 by Electrophile

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

You do understand the difference between NHL HOCKEY and walking northbound on the west side of Woodward, right? Let me explain it:

- Hockey has fighting, and it's allowed (although penalized), if you see Darren McCarty skating at you with hellfire in his eyes you better drop the gloves or turtle, your choice

- When you're walking up Woodward fighting is not allowed (although muggings are, although they are discouraged)

You see the difference, hockey is a sport with fighting, walking is not.

Now, do you see the difference between a quick sucker punch from the front where you fall down and a sucker punch from behind where you're Stone Cold Steve Austin-ed into the ice head first?

When you start to understand the difference from these things you will see clarity in your world.

A sucker punch is not a sucker punch, you have to take more into account.

HAHAHA! Okay junior. Whatever you say.

So in the Lemieux case he should've either dropped his gloves or hit the deck before anything even happened?

You see, you're legitimizing one sucker punch for 2 reasons. 1, Mac is a Wing so you don't find as much fault with it. 2, that your argument is so weak its embarrassing and predicated upon only the direction of which the attack occurred. And for that matter, whatever else was going on is besides the point. The only issue, the only relevant facts are McCarty threw a punch that hit Lemieux in the face when he wasn't ready. There was no invitation to fight in the seconds before that punch. It is a ******* sucker punch any way you color it.

By your backwards ass, hilljack line of thinking, you don't find very much fault with Brad May KO'in Kim Johnsson.

Here you have 2 players facing each other and one throwing a haymaker into the other's face.

Hell, I would argue May gave Johnsson even more time to defend himself than McCarty did to Lemieux.

Your argument is weak. You are weak. And my guess is you're a s***ty hockey player who can't take a punch. Mind you I am only guessing but I am a pretty good judge of these things Dorothy. Cheers!

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Ummm.... What the hell?

McCarty sucker-punched Claudia during a 12 man brawl. Claudia knew what McCarty was coming over there for.

Hint: If you see Igor Larionov fighting Peter Forsberg you know hell has frozen over and you better run, especially if you see Darren McCarty foaming at the mouth and skating at you.

More guesswork from our esteemed colleague.

Common sense might dictate you protect yourself.

It doesn't change the fact that he WAS ******* SUCKER PUNCHED YOU TWIT!!!!!!

Do you even know what a sucker punch is? Where I come from, any punch that's thrown when the other guy isn't prepared to defend themselves is a sucker punch. Just because you don't protect yourself (for whatever reason) it doesn't give the other guy carte blanche to just haul off on you. Should you "know" or "think" that its coming. Probably if you've got any common sense. But that doesn't mean its okay to tee off on somebody before they are ready to dance.

[Doc Holiday 0]

HAHAHA! Okay junior. Whatever you say.

So in the Lemieux case he should've either dropped his gloves or hit the deck before anything even happened?

You see, you're legitimizing one sucker punch for 2 reasons. 1, Mac is a Wing so you don't find as much fault with it. 2, that your argument is so weak its embarrassing and predicated upon only the direction of which the attack occurred. And for that matter, whatever else was going on is besides the point. The only issue, the only relevant facts are McCarty threw a punch that hit Lemieux in the face when he wasn't ready. There was no invitation to fight in the seconds before that punch. It is a ******* sucker punch any way you color it.

Yes, it is a sucker punch. And an ass kicking. Something Moore did not get. Moore was attacked from behind with no opportunity to defend himself and then driven to the ice with Bertuzzi right on top of him.

You cannot possibly attempt to relate the two.

[Holmstrom96 347]

HAHAHA! Okay junior. Whatever you say.

So in the Lemieux case he should've either dropped his gloves or hit the deck before anything even happened?

You see, you're legitimizing one sucker punch for 2 reasons. 1, Mac is a Wing so you don't find as much fault with it. 2, that your argument is so weak its embarrassing and predicated upon only the direction of which the attack occurred. And for that matter, whatever else was going on is besides the point. The only issue, the only relevant facts are McCarty threw a punch that hit Lemieux in the face when he wasn't ready. There was no invitation to fight in the seconds before that punch. It is a ******* sucker punch any way you color it.

By your backwards ass, hilljack line of thinking, you don't find very much fault with Brad May KO'in Kim Johnsson.

Here you have 2 players facing each other and one throwing a haymaker into the other's face.

Hell, I would argue May gave Johnsson even more time to defend himself than McCarty did to Lemieux.

Your argument is weak. You are weak. And my guess is you're a s***ty hockey player who can't take a punch. Mind you I am only guessing but I am a pretty good judge of these things Dorothy. Cheers!

No your argument is weak. You're comparing a from behind head first pile drive to a PUNCH. Do you see the difference between PUNCHING someone and using your 235 pound frame to slam their head into solid ice?

There's a difference between a fist and 235 pounds of gorilla head slamming you AFTER a sucker punch from BEHIND.

McCarty - Sucker punch from the front

Bertuzzi - Sucker punch from behind, then taking your stunned victim and head slamming him using your 235 pound body into solid ice

You can't say the two are the same. I'm not saying that what McCarty did was squeaky-clean, but it was as dirty as what Bertuzzi did. Also, you can't argue with the results, would you rather have 12 stiches or a broken neck?

Yes, Bertuzzi did not mean to break Moore's neck, but it's like what others said about drunk driving, they didn't mean to kill someone with their car, but when you do STUPID and DANGEROUS stuff like Bertuzzi did you going to wind up breaking someone's neck.

[Holmstrom96 347]

More guesswork from our esteemed colleague.

Common sense might dictate you protect yourself.

It doesn't change the fact that he WAS ******* SUCKER PUNCHED YOU TWIT!!!!!!

Do you even know what a sucker punch is? Where I come from, any punch that's thrown when the other guy isn't prepared to defend themselves is a sucker punch. Just because you don't protect yourself (for whatever reason) it doesn't give the other guy carte blanche to just haul off on you. Should you "know" or "think" that its coming. Probably if you've got any common sense. But that doesn't mean its okay to tee off on somebody before they are ready to dance.

You're the twit that thinks a punch broke Steve Moore's neck, it was the force of Bertuzzi's 235 pound body slamming Moore's head onto solid ice.

You do understand that McCarty didn't body slam Claudia head first into the ice, right? You do understand that what Bertuzzi broke Moore's neck, right? And you do understand that Claudia only had to get stiches, right?

Once again, I'm not calling the McCarty smashing of Claudia clean, but it sure wasn't as dirty as what Bertuzzi did.

I can respect McCarty for standing up for Draper and putting some stiches in Lemeuix's face, I cannot respect Bertuzzi for breaking someone's neck for a borderline check by pile-driving them into the ice head first after a sucker punch from behind.

[Electrophile 3,554]

I'd really like GordieSid&Ted to insinuate more people are ***, like he did when he called Homstrom96 "Dorothy" (Dorothy being Judy Garland, huge *** icon and slur against gays). That always adds a level of sophistication to the argument.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Yes, it is a sucker punch. And an ass kicking. Something Moore did not get. Moore was attacked from behind with no opportunity to defend himself and then driven to the ice with Bertuzzi right on top of him.

You cannot possibly attempt to relate the two.

No I am not trying to do that Doc.

I'm just saying that both McCarty and Bertuzzi threw sucker punches. That is an undebatable fact (although some are trying to debate whether Mac's was a sucker punch so now I must ruthlessly bust their balls about it ).

Absolutely there is no argument from me that Moore did not have a chance to defend himself. But what can you do. You've seen the footage over the years. McCarty very well could have KO'd Lemieux with that punch, and he could've fallen back and cracked his head on the ice or whatever. And Moore very well could not have gotten knocked the f*** out if that punch hadn't just landed perfectly and he had a better freaking jaw.

Look, i'm not defending Bert in the slightest as I view all sucker punches equally. I don't nor have I ever believed in punishment based upon the injury to the victim. I hate that line of thinking.

So for me, I don't view the incident as "worse" than other sucker punches because I don't believe the outcome should determine the punishment. That's a personal belief. Like I don't believe putting a gun to somebody's head, pulling the trigger and having the gun jam should be any less of a punishment than actually killing somebody.

I view all sucker punches as cheap. I don't hold Bertuzzi any more accountable than Mac or Odjick of Domi because the injury to Moore was worse than that of the other victims.

And you know what, Bert served a far greater punishment than any other player has for such an offense. He has set the gold standard for punishment for a hockey related offense.

How much more punishment do we want? How high do we want to set the bar? Lifetime banishment?

He served his time. More time than any player in history I believe. Moore can't play again. Ulf Samuelsson did play again. Aaron Ward still plays. s*** happens. Sometimes sucker punches lead to serious injury. Sometimes they don't. They're always cheap though and IMO, if you nail somebody with a punch like that, deemed to be a cheap shot, sucker punch, you get a mandatory suspension of "x" number of games just as one would for a performance enhancing drug in MLB.

[Doc Holiday 0]

No I am not trying to do that Doc.

I'm just saying that both McCarty and Bertuzzi threw sucker punches. That is an undebatable fact (although some are trying to debate whether Mac's was a sucker punch so now I must ruthlessly bust their balls about it ).

Absolutely there is no argument from me that Moore did not have a chance to defend himself. But what can you do. You've seen the footage over the years. McCarty very well could have KO'd Lemieux with that punch, and he could've fallen back and cracked his head on the ice or whatever. And Moore very well could not have gotten knocked the f*** out if that punch hadn't just landed perfectly and he had a better freaking jaw.

Look, i'm not defending Bert in the slightest as I view all sucker punches equally. I don't nor have I ever believed in punishment based upon the injury to the victim. I hate that line of thinking.

So for me, I don't view the incident as "worse" than other sucker punches because I don't believe the outcome should determine the punishment. That's a personal belief. Like I don't believe putting a gun to somebody's head, pulling the trigger and having the gun jam should be any less of a punishment than actually killing somebody.

I view all sucker punches as cheap. I don't hold Bertuzzi any more accountable than Mac or Odjick of Domi because the injury to Moore was worse than that of the other victims.

And you know what, Bert served a far greater punishment than any other player has for such an offense. He has set the gold standard for punishment for a hockey related offense.

How much more punishment do we want? How high do we want to set the bar? Lifetime banishment?

He served his time. More time than any player in history I believe. Moore can't play again. Ulf Samuelsson did play again. Aaron Ward still plays. s*** happens. Sometimes sucker punches lead to serious injury. Sometimes they don't. They're always cheap though and IMO, if you nail somebody with a punch like that, deemed to be a cheap shot, sucker punch, you get a mandatory suspension of "x" number of games just as one would for a performance enhancing drug in MLB.

I would be fine with your argument, however you seem to think that his neck was broken from the sucker punch. Bertuzzi did something that would have a VERY HIGH chance of injury, while a normal sucker punch has a relatively small chance. The result was very likely in Bertuzzi's case, and he made a very very stupid mistake. If Moore or Claude had both had minor injuries, or a slightly cracked skull, then that's not a huge deal. But a career was ended by Bertuzzi's hit, and very few sucker punches have ended careers, if any.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

No your argument is weak. You're comparing a from behind head first pile drive to a PUNCH. Do you see the difference between PUNCHING someone and using your 235 pound frame to slam their head into solid ice?

There's a difference between a fist and 235 pounds of gorilla head slamming you AFTER a sucker punch from BEHIND.

McCarty - Sucker punch from the front

Bertuzzi - Sucker punch from behind, then taking your stunned victim and head slamming him using your 235 pound body into solid ice

You can't say the two are the same. I'm not saying that what McCarty did was squeaky-clean, but it was as dirty as what Bertuzzi did. Also, you can't argue with the results, would you rather have 12 stiches or a broken neck?

Yes, Bertuzzi did not mean to break Moore's neck, but it's like what others said about drunk driving, they didn't mean to kill someone with their car, but when you do STUPID and DANGEROUS stuff like Bertuzzi did you going to wind up breaking someone's neck.

I'm just busting your nuts friend.

But for the sake of argument, now you are adding to the equation.

Now you're talking about Bert driving Moore's face into the ice.

This has always been a tricky one for me. Seems 1/2 of the people think he deliberately pile drived him into the ice.

I think others, and maybe I am in a minority here, can't conclusively tell if he was driving him into the ice on purpose. Anyone can tune into WWF wrestling to see an intentional pile drive.

Watching the clip a bazillion times, here's what makes me uncertain.

1. More is unconscious so he is falling forward anyway, no way to stop that.

2. Does Bert, in that moment of mayhem know that Moore is unconscious and will not be able to break his own fall with his arms? I don't know?

3. Is Bert able to stay on his feet either way? As a defenseman this has happened to me before, where I come up on a guy from behind and say he goes down, sometimes you go down right on top of that guy. It's just momentum, the direction you're going and having a body fall in front of you. Sometimes it can't be helped.

The whole falling on top of him and pile driver thing. yes, it looks horrible on replay and in slo mo. I just don't think that Bert, in that split second realized "he's out, I am going to drive his face into the ice". Frankly, I doubt Bert even realized he KO'd him with that punch.

Anyway, the debate about pile driving him intentionally or him simply falling ontop of him, I don't think you can prove that one way or the other. Clearly, Bert did not pull a WWF move so to say it's a clear cut pile driver I think is a bit much.

My only argument here is that Mac and Bert both sucker punched their victims. And I take issue with anyone who says Mac didn't sucker punch Claude. He did. It's undeniable.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I'd really like GordieSid&Ted to insinuate more people are ***, like he did when he called Homstrom96 "Dorothy" (Dorothy being Judy Garland, huge *** icon and slur against gays). That always adds a level of sophistication to the argument.

Oh brother. Not that I have to defend myself to you (who is nobody to me...yes, you are nobody) but I will have you know that my calling him or whomever that has everything to do with me thinking they are a puss and nothing to do with sexual orientation.

I don't think that way. I see white as white, black as black, punks as punks and wimps ie "Dorothys" as wimps. What folks sexual predilections are are of no interest to me nor am I commenting on them or insinuating anything regarding ones sexuality.

So take your assumptions and shove them wherever you like.

ps: I forgot to add this but had you been here for longer than 12 minutes you'd know me better than that. I am not racist nor sexist. I am an equal opportunity hater. And for the record, I did not know what you're referencing about Judy Garland. I happen to also like calling people Susan. Is there a reference to gays regarding that name as well?

Edited August 18, 2009 by GordieSid&Ted

[Doc Holiday 0]

I think more evidence is favored to the "intentionally took him to the ice" argument considering Bertuzzi lost momentum after punching Moore, then regained it shortly after when they both began to fall forward.

If Bertuzzi had simply lost his balance going forward, he wouldn't have slowed down then gone forward again.

I really doubt he accidentally fell on Moore, simply due to the body language Bertuzzi displayed.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I would be fine with your argument, however you seem to think that his neck was broken from the sucker punch. Bertuzzi did something that would have a VERY HIGH chance of injury, while a normal sucker punch has a relatively small chance. The result was very likely in Bertuzzi's case, and he made a very very stupid mistake. If Moore or Claude had both had minor injuries, or a slightly cracked skull, then that's not a huge deal. But a career was ended by Bertuzzi's hit, and very few sucker punches have ended careers, if any.

Matt Johnson ended Jeff Beukeboom's career with a sucker punch. I was watching that game and remember when it happened. And Boomer was 6-5 and 235 pounds of tough. He never really recovered from this punch and I think Johnson got a slap on the wrist suspension. This is relative to some modern day suspensions is what I'm saying. Why? because it happened many years ago when s*** like that happened alot and they didn't take care of players as much as they do now (which they still don't do a great job of Mr. Campbell )

[Electrophile 3,554]

As a woman, I find it offensive that you would insinuate a man is not a man (a wimp, a *****, etc.) by giving them a woman's name. Doesn't matter what name you choose to use; Dorothy, Susan, Michelle, Amanda....whatever. And frankly, I don't give a rat's ass what you think I am to you. You're basically equating wimpiness or lack of strength with femininity which really.....is quite insulting.