Osgood.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

I've acknowledged those things every time... I simply don't find them sufficient, and use stats to show that I thought he played pretty poorly up until his final playoff run with us.

He also led the Flames to the Cup in '89, lightning doesn't usually strike twice. Vernon was a good goalie. He played in a different era, so his stats aren't the greatest, but he got the job done.

[Outsider 42]

Ok, i see a lot of guys doing the ol' revisionist trick to Osgood's non-Wing days... and let's just say he did not do very well in St. Louis or NY.... and Snow, despite sucking Osgood's first year in NY, actually wound up taking his job the second year.

Snow didin't wind up "taking" Osgood's job.

Osgood suffered a high ankle sprain when he was freight trained by Bobby Holik in a game against the NYR on January 20th, 2003. He was out of the line-up completely for 2+ months, and didn't recover fully from the injury until the following July. That was the ONLY reason Garth Snow saw that kinda ice time that year.

Period.

With all due respect, if you're gonna make a statement, at least know what the Hell you're talking about.

Talk about revisionist history....

[eva unit zero 271]

Snow didin't wind up "taking" Osgood's job.

Osgood suffered a high ankle sprain when he was freight trained by Bobby Holik in a game against the NYR on January 20th, 2003. He was out of the line-up completely for 2+ months, and didn't recover fully from the injury until the following July. That was the ONLY reason Garth Snow saw that kinda ice time that year.

Period.

With all due respect, if you're gonna make a statement, at least know what the Hell you're talking about.

Talk about revisionist history....

But then he would have to acknowledge Osgood carrying the Isles and the fact that Snow did NOT take his job but rather, the team stepped up when he went down because they had been relying on him so much.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

But then he would have to acknowledge Osgood carrying the Isles and the fact that Snow did NOT take his job but rather, the team stepped up when he went down because they had been relying on him so much.

"With Osgood sidelined with an ankle injury from Jan. 21 until last weekend, the Isles thrived in front of a tandem of DiPietro, the No. 1 overall pick in 2000, and veteran backup Garth Snow."...

Which is why he was traded... because he was deemed expendable.. It's not like they broke the bank in the trade either, all they landed was the great Justin Papineau... Point is, either way you look at it, he wasn't shutting the door before he went down with that injury, and when he went down DiPietro played well enough for the team to go in that direction earlier than planned... just trying to get past this myth that Osgood was leading teams full of AHLers to the playoffs every year he was gone.

He also led the Flames to the Cup in '89, lightning doesn't usually strike twice. Vernon was a good goalie. He played in a different era, so his stats aren't the greatest, but he got the job done.

The original conversation that it all stemmed from (on a different thread) was who was the best goalie in Wings history.. so we were excluding accolades accumulated earlier in their careers and focusing on their Wing days.. and Vernon played in a "different era" earlier in his career, but not in his Wings days.. and his stats were still piss-poor. And again, not denying he had value, just saying I don't consider him top goalie in Wings history... not sure why that is so mind-boggling.

Edited August 31, 2009 by RedWings Gone Wild

[Broken 16 381]

The original conversation that it all stemmed from (on a different thread) was who was the best goalie in Wings history.. so we were excluding accolades accumulated earlier in their careers and focusing on their Wing days.. and Vernon played in a "different era" earlier in his career, but not in his Wings days.. and his stats were still piss-poor. And again, not denying he had value, just saying I don't consider him top goalie in Wings history... not sure why that is so mind-boggling.

Wrong. It was a thread about the Best Red Wing Line. Not the best goalie. Don't twist the past to suit you now. You said that Vernon was a below average goalie and you rated Cujo above Vernon in terms of "RED WINGS HISTOREEEEEEEEEEEE!"... Which is ludicrous at best.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Broken 16

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Wrong. It was a thread about the Best Red Wing Line. Not the best goalie. Don't twist the past to suit you now. You said that Vernon was a below average goalie and you rated Cujo above Vernon in terms of "RED WINGS HISTOREEEEEEEEEEEE!"... Which is ludicrous at best.

It was wings all-time squad... which would include their top goalie ever...

and since you can't read i'll insert exactly what I said in the original debate:

If one single decent playoff is good enough to make Vernon one of our best ever, then I hardly see how Cujo shouldn't be inserted into the debate.... but if you were to ask me, neither of them would be in the discussion. Only Sawchuk, Osgood, and Hasek.

[Broken 16 381]

It was wings all-time squad... which would include their top goalie ever...

and since you can't read i'll insert exactly what I said in the original debate:

Two can play that game:

and Vernon? On the Wings all time squad?... uh no.... Osgood, Hasek, Cujo, Sawchuk... all better choices.... not to mention the 3 other half of fame goalies that have played for this team.... and BTW, Vernon IS NOT a hall of famer.

You clearly place Cujo above Vernon in terms of Red Wings lore based solely on stats. This is where we will continue to clash. Cujo was basically a bust for the Wings. An instance where stats DO NOT tell the story. <gasp!>

Stat wise, Cujo was a very good goalie over the course of his career. On the Wings, for whatever reason, there was a lack of cohesiveness with the rest of the squad that was painfully obvious to even the untrained eye. The Wings need a certain type of goalie with a certain type of mindset. Vernon was that kind of guy. Osgood is that type of guy. Even Hasek was able to pull it off. Ranford? No. Cujo? No.

So, in terms of Red Wings lore and legend.... Cujo sucked. Sorry.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Broken 16

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

You clearly place Cujo above Vernon in terms of Red Wings lore based solely on stats. This is where we will continue to clash.

Cujo played very well for us, I think he got a bum rap for the team unfolding in front of him. I was focusing on skill, but in the context of wings history, yes Vernon is obviously more significant. I just don't consider him the better goaltender. The way I read the discussion, and continue to, is on the basis of on-ice production (not historical importance, since we are removing these guys from their context in time/place and placing them in an ambiguous all-time setting).

Not Hasek, nor Osgood or Vernon could have saved the team Cujo was in net for.. so labeling him a "bust" is a bit much.

Edited August 31, 2009 by RedWings Gone Wild

[Broken 16 381]

Cujo played very well for us, I think he got a bum rap for the team unfolding in front of him. I was focusing on skill, but in the context of wings history, yes Vernon is obviously more significant. I just don't consider him the better goaltender. The way I read the discussion, and continue to, is on the basis of on-ice production (not historical importance, since we are removing these guys from their context in time/place and placing them in an ambiguous all-time setting).

Not Hasek, nor Osgood or Vernon could have saved the team Cujo was in net for.. so labeling him a "bust" is a bit much.

You don't know that. Yes, Cujo made the saves he was supposed to make for the most part, but having Hasek, Vernon or Osgood would have dramatically changed things. For whatever reason, it was pretty obvious that the rest of the team wasn't 100% comfortable with Cujo in net. Despite what they may have said in post-games. Something made Cujo a bad fit for the Wings. We may never know what that 'something' was... but you can't just glaze it over with stats and say that Cujo was awesome and deserves a spot ahead of Vernon in Red Wings history. It's not that easy. You of all people should know that.

Edited August 31, 2009 by Broken 16

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

You don't know that. Yes, Cujo made the saves he was supposed to make for the most part, but having Hasek, Vernon or Osgood would have dramatically changed things. For whatever reason, it was pretty obvious that the rest of the team wasn't 100% comfortable with Cujo in net. Despite what they may have said in post-games. Something made Cujo a bad fit for the Wings. We may never know what that 'something' was... but you can't just glaze it over with stats and say that Cujo was fine. It's not that easy. You of all people should know that.

Well, I think the drama of bringing Hasek out of retirement, and putting Cujo down in the minors, only to bring him back up when Hasek went down injured... put a damper on the whole thing, and probably made a few guys a little less than comfortable.. But Cujo was a class act through it all, and I don't think he was necessarily a bad fit for the team... It was one of many seasons where the Wings forwards were just not getting it done on the score sheet (which I think is what gave Legacy such a bad image too... tho he choked on more than one occasion). It was 03-04 after all when we lost games 6 and 7 against Calgary 1-0 (the last one in OT), something that is inexcusable from an offensive standpoint.

[Broken 16 381]

Well, I think the drama of bringing Hasek out of retirement, and putting Cujo down in the minors, only to bring him back up when Hasek went down injured... put a damper on the whole thing, and probably made a few guys a little less than comfortable.. But Cujo was a class act through it all, and I don't think he was necessarily a bad fit for the team... It was one of many seasons where the Wings forwards were just not getting it done on the score sheet (which I think is what gave Legacy such a bad image too... tho he choked on more than one occasion). It was 03-04 after all when we lost games 6 and 7 against Calgary 1-0 (the last one in OT), something that is inexcusable from an offensive standpoint.

Ya... I always felt the Wings handled that thing with Cujo and Hasek very badly. And Cujo was a class act through it all, no doubt. One thing I never fully understood... why the Wings, who some might say are loyal to a flaw, would treat Cujo that way. The only thing I can think is that they saw or heard something about Cujo that they didn't like and never went public with it. I always found that whole thing pretty mind boggling. I know the lure of having Hasek on your team can be pretty strong, but...

Edited August 31, 2009 by Broken 16

[Slave 31]

Hated the way We treated Cujo, I was stoked we got him on our team. And yeah Not sure how our losses those seasons could be blamed on him, here are his stats for the 2 payoffs with us :

SEASON GP MIN W L GA SO GAA SA Sv% G A PIM

2003-04 9 518 4 4 12 1 1,39 197 .939 0 0 2

2002-03 4 289 0 4 10 5 2,08 120 .917 0 0 0

TOTAL 13 807 4 8 22 6 1,64 317 .931 0 0 2

pretty damn impressive..except for the total games played

[Broken 16 381]

Hated the way We treated Cujo, I was stoked we got him on our team. And yeah Not sure how our losses those seasons could be blamed on him, here are his stats for the 2 payoffs with us :

SEASON GP MIN W L GA SO GAA SA Sv% G A PIM

2003-04 9 518 4 4 12 1 1,39 197 .939 0 0 2

2002-03 4 289 0 4 10 5 2,08 120 .917 0 0 0

TOTAL 13 807 4 8 22 6 1,64 317 .931 0 0 2

pretty damn impressive..except for the total games played

I never said that Cujo was to blame for anything. Quite the opposite, in fact. I blame the Wings for the way they handled the situation. Actually, I'm hesitant to place 'blame' on anyone without all the subtle details but I was happier than s*** when we got Cujo. Overall, I agree that Cujo was more solid a goaltender than Vernon. Just not what the Wings were looking for, I guess.

Still hate that he got sent down to make room for Hasek. Still pisses me off to this day for some reason.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

If I remember correctly, the reason we resigned Hasek was because the Avs were pushing hard to sign him and we panicked. Could you imagine how the Avs would have been with an actual replacement for Roy?

[Outsider 42]

"With Osgood sidelined with an ankle injury from Jan. 21 until last weekend, the Isles thrived in front of a tandem of DiPietro, the No. 1 overall pick in 2000, and veteran backup Garth Snow."...

Which is why he was traded... because he was deemed expendable.. It's not like they broke the bank in the trade either, all they landed was the great Justin Papineau... Point is, either way you look at it, he wasn't shutting the door before he went down with that injury, and when he went down DiPietro played well enough for the team to go in that direction earlier than planned... just trying to get past this myth that Osgood was leading teams full of AHLers to the playoffs every year he was gone.

Fortunately, (for me), I don't have to rely on blurbs written by those who, (undoubtedly like yourself), didn't watch a damned one of those games. I've got every one of them on tape.

Osgood sucked for the entire first month of the Season. He tried to transition into a butterfly goaltender, and it was NOT working for him. Once he got back to his old tried and true style, right around mid-November, he was fantastic and on many nights was the sole reason the Isles were winning.

DiPietro played barely at all that Season, and when he did, he was nothing to write home about. BUT.....he was the First Overall, AND the guy MM traded Luongo in order to make room for, so he was gonna get his shot. He was SUPPOSED to get it in 2001-2002, until the Isles picked Oz off the waiver wire.

Mike Milbury offered Osgood a 4 year extension at $4M per year in the summer of 2002. Oz turned it down. At that point, his fate was sealed. He wasn't gonna re-sign - Management and Ownership both knew it. Might as well get whatever they could for him before he walked in FA, and bring the kid up.

On the night Osgood went down with that ankle injury, he had just won NHL Player of the Month honors for December, and from December to January 20 was posting a 1.87 GAA and .946 SVP. He had the Isles in 6th place in the Conference on January 20th, and firmly positioned for a stretch run. He was playing fantastic hockey.

After the March 9th trade, the Isles were LUCKY to back into 8th by the end of the Season, through no great effort of their own.

Chris Osgood won as many Play Off Games in his ONE appearance in the Post Season on Long Island, as all other Islanders goaltenders have combined to win since he left.

The Islanders were made exponentially weaker by the Trade they made to St. Louis.

[Pavel Hossyukstrom 2]

you mean Brodeur that other goalie.