The Wings need to get tougher, seriously

[Dr. Sapirstein 0]

We all saw what happened in the playoffs last spring with Niedermayer and Talbot taking some physical abuse on our key players (Datsyuk especially).

Now when it gets to the point where we are getting bumped around by one of the softest teams in the NHL (the Montreal Canadiens), I say we have a major problem!

Edited November 23, 2009 by Dr. Sapirstein

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Well, if we dress May regularly, bring up Janik to replace Kronwall, and put Lilja in for Lebda, we'll have the toughest lineup in years. We're already tougher than we were last year.

Ericsson and Bertuzzi were supposed to bring more toughness, but those guys haven't done anything remotely tough this season. Unless turning pucks over and hitting posts is considered tough.

[Guest micah]

Well, if we dress May regularly, bring up Janik to replace Kronwall, and put Lilja in for Lebda, we'll have the toughest lineup in years. We're already tougher than we were last year.

Ericsson and Bertuzzi were supposed to bring more toughness, but those guys haven't done anything remotely tough this season. Unless turning pucks over and hitting posts is considered tough.

All of this.

May should be in every night. He isn't a world-class hockey fighter but he's game as hell and not afraid to tangle with anyone. It took Babs a while to figure out that the wings get bullied and cheapshotted more when they don't have anyone on the ice who is willing to risk their good looks for the good of the team. the league knows about Detroit - people hae been saying for years that if you abuse them they'll disappear, and now we see teams employing that strategy.

Hockey is about matchups - if dats is on the ice, the opposing coach knows he better have someone out there who can contain him. If the Wings opponent has a tough guy on the ice, the wings should have someone on the ice who can contain him, or at least draw his attention from our more fragile or skilled players. We didn't have that last night and you see what happened.

[uk_redwing 495]

Well, if we dress May regularly, bring up Janik to replace Kronwall, and put Lilja in for Lebda, we'll have the toughest lineup in years. We're already tougher than we were last year.

Ericsson and Bertuzzi were supposed to bring more toughness, but those guys haven't done anything remotely tough this season. Unless turning pucks over and hitting posts is considered tough.

It wouldnt be hard to be tougher than last years line up. Last years line up was cringeworthingly soft.

I agree with bringing Janik up. He's a far better defenseman than Meech or Lebda and brings that extra element of toughness/fighting. Lilja said in an interview hes done fighting.

May definately needs to be in the line up regulary. We've all just seen why, shouldnt need to go into it more than that. Im already fed up with Bertuzzi. He brings absolutely nothing. And as for Ericsson, hes squared off unsuccesfully twice this season against Rosehill and Perry, so has seemed fiesty on plenty of occasion so Im not too worried about him yet. Abdelkader will have his first fight within the next 10 games easy the way hes been playing.

Having May, Abdelkader, Ericsson and Janik in the line up will make us easily tough enough both to play good balanced hockey and also have that extra entertainment value...obviously what do we know, eh? Derek Meech is obviously awesome and a much better option if Holland thinks so.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

I fail to see how being "tougher" could have prevented Kronner's injury.

[VM1138 1,921]

I fail to see how being "tougher" could have prevented Kronner's injury.

Its a delusion many fans fall under.

Look, I don't see toughness as this teams problem. Stuart and Kronwall are two of the best hitters in the league. Helm hits everything that moves, even Eaves is getting there. May fights. Ericcson hits and swings people like Perry around like rag dolls.

Our problem is scoring, goaltending and defense.

[Echolalia 2,961]

I fail to see how being tougher would prevent any of our injuries. In fact, Lilja was a bit too tough last year and we're still waiting to see if he'll ever lace his skates up again.

[uk_redwing 495]

I fail to see how being tougher would prevent any of our injuries. In fact, Lilja was a bit too tough last year and we're still waiting to see if he'll ever lace his skates up again.

A hockey check/high stick could have given him the exact same injury. Dont be stupid. As our own Micky Redmond says: "No one gets hurt in a good fair fight."

[Guest micah]

I fail to see how being "tougher" could have prevented Kronner's injury.

Laraque would have had a hard time kneeing Kronner if he were trading punches with someone who called him out for his blatant and reckless high stick. If one of our guys had instigated a fight with Laraque right then and there, Kronner would havve been fine and we would have still had a 2 miute PP.

Edited November 23, 2009 by micah

[Carman 387]

I fail to see how fighting=team toughness. Obvisiously it doesn't hurt, but I don't think it is mutually dependent on each other.

Niedermayer and Talbot definitely would not have have done anything differently in the OP's situation, they wouldn't even have fought our "fighter".

And us being "bumped around" by the Hab's got us the PP opportunities that won us the game. If we would have "fought back" we would of lost the game as well as Kronwall. By the way I don't think anyone in the NHL could discourage Laraque from cheapshotting Kronwall, the guy can take just about everyone, and has to practically kill a man just to get attention from the other team.

That said, I do want more fighting on the Red Wing's because it's damn entertaining, not because I think it will help win hockey games and is a major factor on team "toughness". I think forechecking, and hitting has a hell of a lot more due to team toughness than fighting because most hockey players won't even answer the bell in today's game.

Just my 2 cents.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I think we all need to get tougher.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Laraque would have had a hard time kneeing Kronner if he were trading punches with someone who called him out for his blatant and reckless high stick. If one of our guys had instigated a fight with Laraque right then and there, Kronner would havve been fine and we would have still had a 2 miute PP.

What? The knee happened on the same shift as the high stick. Helm, Eaves and Draper were on the ice. Which one of them is going to fight Laraque over a high stick? Teams don't start fights because of a high stick in that situation, which was blatant but hardly intentional on Laraque's half.

Nice attempt at saying the injury was somehow preventable with more toughness. Kronner was going to get hurt regardless of who the Red Wings had dressed last night. Enforcers don't prevent injuries.

[RedArmy 4]

What? The knee happened on the same shift as the high stick. Helm, Eaves and Draper were on the ice. Which one of them is going to fight Laraque over a high stick? Teams don't start fights because of a high stick in that situation, which was blatant but hardly intentional on Laraque's half.

Nice attempt at saying the injury was somehow preventable with more toughness. Kronner was going to get hurt regardless of who the Red Wings had dressed last night. Enforcers don't prevent injuries.

totally agree.... hows starting a fight over high sticking make any sense? Toughness isn't going to prevent a goon doing goonish things... league needs to strike down on goons... toughness has nothing to do with being a goon...

[Echolalia 2,961]

A hockey check/high stick could have given him the exact same injury. Dont be stupid. As our own Micky Redmond says: "No one gets hurt in a good fair fight."

The more fights you engage in, fair or not, the greater probability of enduring a career ending concussion or even dying as we have seen in minor leagues. Don't be stupid. I would rather take my chances playing the game and getting a high stick to the face than go balls to the wall in fight with someone. Especially because when the 5 minutes are over, the fight means little to nothing in terms of the actual game.

[Guest micah]

What? The knee happened on the same shift as the high stick. Helm, Eaves and Draper were on the ice. Which one of them is going to fight Laraque over a high stick? Teams don't start fights because of a high stick in that situation, which was blatant but hardly intentional on Laraque's half.

Nice attempt at saying the injury was somehow preventable with more toughness. Kronner was going to get hurt regardless of who the Red Wings had dressed last night. Enforcers don't prevent injuries.

If we hd been plying smart, there would not be a sitution where a Georges Laraque is on the ice with nobody capable of stnding up to him, drawing his fire. Had May (or Downey, or evver Brad f'n Norton) been on the ice talking s*** after that high stick, Kronner would have a helthy knee tody. On every shift, the right matchups need to be on the ice. Last night, they weren't

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Babcock himself has pretty much stated that he believes enforcers have a deterrent effect.

You guys can make fun of us for believing that, but how do you explain the head coach saying virtually the same thing? Are you going to say that Babcock is wrong too?

[Jake Ryan 1]

Its a delusion many fans fall under.

Look, I don't see toughness as this teams problem. Stuart and Kronwall are two of the best hitters in the league. Helm hits everything that moves, even Eaves is getting there. May fights. Ericcson hits and swings people like Perry around like rag dolls.

Our problem is scoring, goaltending and defense.

!!! That's kind of like saying, we could make pizzas, but we don't have any dough, sauce, or cheese, isn't it? !! Scoring isn't our problem. Goaltending isn't our problem. And the defense has been ok. As soon as Babcock get Holmstrom off Datsyuk's line and puts Helm up there, you'll see a lot of problems go away.

Helm-Datsyuk-Bertuzzi

Cleary-Zetterberg-Leino

That should be how are top 2 lines look.

[Guest micah]

totally agree.... hows starting a fight over high sticking make any sense?

How does not responding to another player recklessly sticking your teammate near his eye mke any sence? That wasn't shot follow-through, that was a case of Laraque being stupid and he should have been called out for it immediately.

[Carman 387]

Babcock himself has pretty much stated that he believes enforcers have a deterrent effect.

You guys can make fun of us for believing that, but how do you explain the head coach saying virtually the same thing? Are you going to say that Babcock is wrong too?

Well you think he was wrong for not having May in the line up. Where do we all draw the line? Could he be wrong about everything?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Well you think he was wrong for not having May in the line up. Where do we all draw the line? Could he be wrong about everything?

He was trying to see what we have in Drew Miller by giving him consecutive games in the lineup. He made a mistake, though, since Montreal has Laraque, Moen and Lapierre. They're hardly a team of saints like the Panthers are.

I'm just countering the posters who are against the philosophy of enforcers deterring things. Enforcers do deter somewhat, which is why Babcock and other coaches bother dressing tough guys in the first place.

[Guest micah]

Laraque was clearly agitaated and looking to make an impact last night. He does not have a history of cheapshotting weaklings, he has a history of fighting other team's tough guys (including Brad May). Had we had someone in the lineup to entertain Mr Laraque, I suspect our team would be a bit healthier today.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Once again, had Brad May even been dressed last night, it wouldn't have mattered. First, he would have had to been on the ice when the incidents happened. As I stated, he wouldn't have been because the Helm/Draper/Eaves line was out there. Second, we have people that assume May would have went after Laraque for a routine high stick and therefore Kronner never gets injured.

It's not a matter of liking/dislking enforcers. I love Brad May on this team. To say he could have prevented Kronwall's injury though is a complete stretch to further trigger the "Wings aren't tough enough" BS.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Laraque was clearly agitaated and looking to make an impact last night. He does not have a history of cheapshotting weaklings, he has a history of fighting other team's tough guys (including Brad May). Had we had someone in the lineup to entertain Mr Laraque, I suspect our team would be a bit healthier today.

Good psychological analysis of tough-guy Laraque. You do know that he has been suspended/fined for his history of cheapshotting 3 times already, right?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Once again, had Brad May even been dressed last night, it wouldn't have mattered. First, he would have had to been on the ice when the incidents happened. As I stated, he wouldn't have been because the Helm/Draper/Eaves line was out there. Second, we have people that assume May would have went after Laraque for a routine high stick and therefore Kronner never gets injured.

It's not a matter of liking/dislking enforcers. I love Brad May on this team. To say he could have prevented Kronwall's injury though is a complete stretch to further trigger the "Wings aren't tough enough" BS.

You do agree, though, that with Lilja in the lineup this wouldn't have happened?

[hokike 1]

When somebody wants to injure somebdy he does it and fight does not prevent anything.

Fight has pure enterntainment value and zero influence on final score, because of game clock is not ticking.

What OP totally ignores, is the fact that some teams are hurting even more and nobody says "they have so many injuries because of they are even softer than Red Wings."

Claiming that "fight could have prevented Kronwall's injury is as good as saying that Homer (you know, that guy from Greece, not Holmström) wrote "Odysseia": you neither can prove or disprove that.

Edited November 23, 2009 by hokike