The Wings need to get tougher, seriously

[Guest Shoreline]

Nobody ever claimed that enforcers will prevent 100% of cheapshots. That doesn't mean they can't or don't prevent some. Had May been in the game, I don't think that it's so unthinkable that Lraque would have gone after him instead of Kronner. It's not magic and it's not certain, but it's my hunch based on what I've seen of Laraque in the past.

Why would you want an enforcer who could score goals? I don't want one of my goal-scoreres making a habit of taking 5 minute penalties and busting up his hands on people's grapes. By all means, goal-scorers should be willing to fight when the game calls for it, but I want dedicated goal-scorers concentrating on scoring goals and dedicated face-breakers concentrating on breaking faces.

Well, the goal of a game, I thought, was to win. If you're not scoring goals or helping defend against a goal, then whatever other role that is played on the ice is obviously not as necessary, and is a sideshow, entertaining or not. There's more closer to a 0% chance that May being on the ice would have prevented that cheap shot, just like a 0% chance Lappy would have done anything different w/Lids with Downey being there. Despite this obvious and consistent pattern, it hasn't changed the incorrect assertions of prevention. It's evident the "prevention" thing is way of trying to legitimize enforcers in a shady fashion as being necessary. Much like the "Enforcer X was on the roster therefore he [and enforcers] was part of the reason the team won a cup" gospel. No logical person falls for that. There have been some better arguments made but not by those so heavily obsessed with enforcers.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Shoreline

[esteef 2,679]

Currently, every team in the league has at least one fighter/enforcer player, some multiple. Please explain.

esteef

[Carman 387]

Currently, every team in the league has at least one fighter/enforcer player, some multiple. Please explain.

esteef

It helps sell tickets and increases the crowd's morale.

[Doc Holiday 0]

My avatar gunfighter would totally gun yours down in a duel.

You're a daisy if you doooo.

Oh and Babcock said those things in the past because Holland didn't want to sign tough guys. While he was in Anaheim, Babcock would often dress tough guys. He does believe in "team toughness", but I don't think he was against enforcers while he was preaching that whole saying.

I don't believe he is against enforcers either, and I think it is silly to be against someone who dishes it out every shift and fights guys on the other team. He is a fourth liner, so the more s***h e disturbs the better. However we are talking about using Babcock as an expert when discussing the legitimacy of the "Enforcers deter" argument. Babcock is going to tow the company line because he is a crucial part of the company. If there are enforcers in the lineup, he will preach that enforcers cure cancer. When not, he will talk about the power play being a super duper deterrent to keep players from running our guys. Both are ridiculous statements.

Enforcers are tough guys who drop the gloves (normally against other tough guys) and attempt to f*** s*** up on the ice. Does it work to keep guys like Perry or Laraque from starting trouble? Not in my opinion, though it is a possibility. Do they cause more harm than good? Nope.

[esteef 2,679]

It helps sell tickets and increases the crowd's morale.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Please answer this time, okay? Is your proposal that the Wings do nothing different to keep people like Laraque from hurting guys like Kronwall?

Ok I'll answer again since you can't comprehend. The question is stupid, you made up the question to elicit a particular response. Of course it is not my proposal that the Wings do nothing different to keep people like Laraque from hurting guys like Kronwall. It is my contention that not much will change the fact that players on every team, whether they have enforcers or not, will receive cheap shots and that some times those cheap shots result in injury. The fact that you don't like the result (Kronner getting hurt) doesn't mean that different actions (other than obvious ones like not playing him) would have changed the fact that the cheap shot happened and Kronner was hurt. Laraque is not the slightest bit intimidated by May and I don't think would have changed his behavior in the slightest because May was dressed (he might have fought and then the cheap shot or maybe the cheap shot then fought). You always deal in abstracts that mean nothing because they cannot be proven one way or the other. I do think having a guy like May helps when there is a scrum, provides great entertainment, and is an overall plus for the team BUT I also think your obsession that if we would have just had an enforcer dressed we would have drastically different results to an intentional injury caused by Laraque is silly.

Our opponents are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our team and its players, and neither do we.

Plus I think the Nashville Predators are the main source of heroin in the NHL.

Currently, every team in the league has at least one fighter/enforcer player, some multiple. Please explain.

esteef

I like the fact that we have May on the team, I think he is good for morale, good for energy, excitement, and entertainment. I was thrilled when we signed him and glad that he has been played so often. I think if you can find one that fits your team every team benefits from and should have a fighter. My contention is just that it doesn't change whether or not guys like Laraque will cheap shot whenever they get the whim.

[Doc Holiday 0]

Exactly.

This is the great unknown; had May been out there stirring the pot - maybe - just maybe he would've drawn the attention of Laraque.

And that proves nothing.

It is not some magical indicator that the Wings should get tougher, or that the Wings need someone for Laraque to completely f*** up on. And that is the exact point of this thread. That Detroit NEEDS an enforcer.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Sorry, but I don't feel like getting up to speed on every post in this discussion... but my two cents follow:

Look, I agree that sticking up for your teammates is important (and if you recall last year's playoffs... guys were sticking up for one another, even on this "Oh So Soft" squad)... However, something important to note that seems lost on many people; Laraque's cheap shots and the parade of Canadiens penalties was the ONLY reason we won that game. Period.

We stunk 5 on 5, and only got the goals because of the penalties. If you factor in the retaliation penalties that would have occurred from seeking insta-payback it would have meant we wouldn't have had an extended 5-on-3 and probably wouldn't have gotten the goal. Laraque was also played what, 1 or 2 minutes in total after the knee on knee hit? It's not like there was ample ice time for payback, the guy's useless and his coach knows it.

The guys showed discipline in holding back, took the penalty minutes, and got the best kind of revenge: a goal. I'll take that over a May fight any day.

[Guest micah]

Ok I'll answer again since you can't comprehend. The question is stupid, you made up the question to elicit a particular response. Of course it is not my proposal that the Wings do nothing different to keep people like Laraque from hurting guys like Kronwall. It is my contention that not much will change the fact that players on every team, whether they have enforcers or not, will receive cheap shots and that some times those cheap shots result in injury. The fact that you don't like the result (Kronner getting hurt) doesn't mean that different actions (other than obvious ones like not playing him) would have changed the fact that the cheap shot happened and Kronner was hurt. Laraque is not the slightest bit intimidated by May and I don't think would have changed his behavior in the slightest because May was dressed (he might have fought and then the cheap shot or maybe the cheap shot then fought). You always deal in abstracts that mean nothing because they cannot be proven one way or the other. I do think having a guy like May helps when there is a scrum, provides great entertainment, and is an overall plus for the team BUT I also think your obsession that if we would have just had an enforcer dressed we would have drastically different results to an intentional injury caused by Laraque is silly.

Hmm. I'm still rather perplexed as to what you think the Wings should do differently from now on. "Not nothing" is all I get out of your response. Please be more specific. Thanks.

[Guest Shoreline]

Currently, every team in the league has at least one fighter/enforcer player, some multiple. Please explain.

esteef

Currently, every team in the league has at least one color commentary announcer that broadcasts that season, sometimes two or three. Please explain.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Exactly.

This is the great unknown; had May been out there stirring the pot - maybe - just maybe he would've drawn the attention of Laraque.

a similar retort of ambiguously supported hypothetical unknowns could be made for every single player on that night's active roster... If Laraque had taken a left turn instead of a right one when heading out of his driveway in the morning he may have never even made it to the game alive!!!!!

If you look at May's TOI, how early in the game the hit came, how little icetime Laraque got after the hit, who was on the ice at the time of the hit, and really, just about anything else... and you'd realize that the probability that May makes a shred of difference is nonexistent... furthermore, to justify giving a roster spot to someone on the basis of a minuscule possibility that he may need to be johnny on the spot for some frontier justice is insanely shortsighted, and really goes against everything that has made this team, or any other recent team, successful. I don't think May is a liability or anything, but it is far easier and more effective for us to be rolling 4 lines without him. Dressing guys like Laraque in the lineup is one of many reasons for why the Canadien's are such a blissfully (IMO) bad team, following their lead isn't exactly sound logic.

Edited November 23, 2009 by RedWings Gone Wild

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

Most of us pro-enforcer types aren't claiming a fighter on the team will cure cancer, nor prevent any cheap-shots from the likes of Laraque, but then again there isn't any concrete evidence to suggest otherwise either.

Yes there is. It's called the 80s... back when every team was two lines of stars, and two lines of thugs. The number of cheap shots is considerably down from then.... There were daily cheapshots in the Probert/Kocur days, people just slept a little better because the two of them would return the favor. There's hardly the same number of cheap shots now that the enforcers are less prevalent. The spike in injuries is a result of the fastness of the "new" NHL and the goalie trapezoid making headshots and checks from behind considerably easier to come by.... we've lost one guy from a cheapshot in how long? If there truly was an unwritten rule that the thugs have free-reign against Detroit because of our lack of enforcers, then we'd probably actually see it happen regularly instead of once in a blue moon (and against certain teams that always play that way... *cough* Anaheim *cough*).... Be a Ducks fan for a month, just one month, and you'd realize how much dirtier teams play against the Ducks because of their style of play, and then compare it to how teams play against Detroit... the logic that enforcers make the game safer for the skill players vanishes pretty quickly.... teams tend to play to your level if you play with fighters.

Edited November 23, 2009 by RedWings Gone Wild

[Electrophile 3,554]

I'd like someone to explain how just the mere presence of more enforcers on the team will somehow prevent injuries from occurring. I'm all for whatever will help the team score more goals and provide better defense, but short of leaving these guys on the ice all game acting as bouncers or patrolmen, what exactly will it solve? Say Pavs is rushing down the ice and he's got a clear breakaway, and someone trips him. As a result, his ACL is torn. How would an enforcer keep that from happening? Beating the piss out of the guy the next time he's on the ice? Okay.....now that everyone got to beat off to a fight, how does that alter what happened to Pavs?

Oh right it doesn't.

The Wings don't need to get "tougher". They need to score goals, they need to shore up their defense, they need to shore up their goaltending. Our players will get injured whether we have a bunch of goons on the ice or not. I frankly don't give a rat's ass if Kenny signs every MMA fighter he can name off the top of his head. I'll root for the Wings anyway, but I'd bet it would be a real s***ty product.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Exactly.

This is the great unknown; had May been out there stirring the pot - maybe - just maybe he would've drawn the attention of Laraque.

It is also unknown if we would have had a sniper out there maybe just maybe we would have scored before anything happened. It's all conjecture and doesn't add anything because no one knows what would have happened if things were other than what they actually were.

Hmm. I'm still rather perplexed as to what you think the Wings should do differently from now on. "Not nothing" is all I get out of your response. Please be more specific. Thanks.

My you are dense. Not only can you, once again not refute anything I say so you fail to even defend anything but you also completely miss my entire point. My point is that there is nothing different to do, you create a question that if answered has to be answered in your favor. It would be stupid and irrational to say "yeah what I want is for our guys to take a cheap shot and get injured." The easy and pathetic answer that you spew is "oh if only May had suited up all the world would have been right, there would be no hunger and everyone would be ok." Most likely every single team in this league will have a cheap shot taken against one of their players whether they have an enforcer or not. Teams with enforcers will get cheap shots on their players and so will teams without enforcers. So my answer is YOU ASK STUPID QUESTIONS. I hope you got it that time.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I'd like someone to explain how just the mere presence of more enforcers on the team will somehow prevent injuries from occurring. I'm all for whatever will help the team score more goals and provide better defense, but short of leaving these guys on the ice all game acting as bouncers or patrolmen, what exactly will it solve? Say Pavs is rushing down the ice and he's got a clear breakaway, and someone trips him. As a result, his ACL is torn. How would an enforcer keep that from happening? Beating the piss out of the guy the next time he's on the ice? Okay.....now that everyone got to beat off to a fight, how does that alter what happened to Pavs?

Oh right it doesn't.

The Wings don't need to get "tougher". They need to score goals, they need to shore up their defense, they need to shore up their goaltending. Our players will get injured whether we have a bunch of goons on the ice or not. I frankly don't give a rat's ass if Kenny signs every MMA fighter he can name off the top of his head. I'll root for the Wings anyway, but I'd bet it would be a real s***ty product.

YOU need to get tougher, Electrophile.

Join our pro-enforcer thing for a month, and who knows, maybe you'll like it. It could change your life.

Oh and enforcers do deter somewhat. Babcock and all the other coaches seem to think that it helps prevent cheapshots. That's why they dress them. The example you gave was more of a game injury as opposed to a blatant cheapshot.

[Electrophile 3,554]

YOU need to get tougher, Electrophile.

Join our pro-enforcer thing for a month, and who knows, maybe you'll like it. It could change your life.

I'm tough enough. I'm not anti-enforcer and I'm not pro-enforcer. I'm pro-whatever will fix what is broken on this team.

As for changing my life? Hyperbole much?

[jollymania 162]

we need to get tougher but how were we tosse around by montreal? there were 4 big his that game 2, form each team.

[Guest micah]

My you are dense. Not only can you, once again not refute anything I say so you fail to even defend anything but you also completely miss my entire point. My point is that there is nothing different to do, you create a question that if answered has to be answered in your favor. It would be stupid and irrational to say "yeah what I want is for our guys to take a cheap shot and get injured." The easy and pathetic answer that you spew is "oh if only May had suited up all the world would have been right, there would be no hunger and everyone would be ok." Most likely every single team in this league will have a cheap shot taken against one of their players whether they have an enforcer or not. Teams with enforcers will get cheap shots on their players and so will teams without enforcers. So my answer is YOU ASK STUPID QUESTIONS. I hope you got it that time.

How does that jive with this?

Of course it is not my proposal that the Wings do nothing different to keep people like Laraque from hurting guys like Kronwall."

You do or do not think that the Wings should do something different in order to keep actions like the one taken against Kronner from happening again? I'll help you out. Your answer will not be blah blah blah, it will be "I think the Wings should stay the course and change nothing, actions like the one that injured Kronwall are not preventable" (thus contradicting yourself) or you could say "I propose that the Wings make the following changes to reduce the risk of another player being injured by a cheapshot (list actions)".

...and I don't think "How can we prevent this?" is a stupid question to ask after your team or company takes a hit it can't really afford to take again in the future.

Edited November 23, 2009 by micah

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

IMHO May has done an exceptional job with the 4th line minutes by getting under the oppositions skin, creating scoring chances down around the crease area, hitting the opposing Dmen (or anyone wearing the oppositions sweater for that matter), getting into scraps, and yes - he even scored a goal

I'm no coach in the NHL, but Jacques Martin is, and has been since the mid 80's...I'm sure he has his reasons for dressing Laraque that both you, and I aren't aware of...Funny thing though is that Martin isn't the only coach to dress these sorts of players on a nightly basis...I'm sure other coaches have their reasons as well.

Few things... Laraque probably wouldn't have been used by Martin if Gionta, D'Agostini, and Fortier were all healthy.... and some people subscribe to the pro-enforcer school of hockey.. it's just very few of those kinds of coaches have been winning cups of late... and it's also a little more tempting to use an enforcer when one's team isn't enough to get the fans into the game and seats (because contrary to popular opinion, money is the ultimate motivator, not success on the ice... if the two can go together, great, but selling tickets and apparel is always motivator #1 for the guys doing the hiring and firing).

Also, yes, I think May has played well, but Babcock (also an NHL coach mind you) felt the team's success is likelier with the guys he put on the ice that game... interesting that his logic isn't given a similarly respectful "he must know better than me." I don't know that I would take Maltby over May, but I would certainly use Maltby in more situations than May.

[Shaman 713]

Ok, let me entertain this idea and ask some questions

Who would you trade from the wings?

Who would the Wings trade for?

Where do you get the cap space for these guys?

Where would these tougher players fit in the wings roster?

What would we realisticly lose for giving up our currently 3/4th liners for these players? (you have to lose something)

[Frozen-Man 144]

Ok I'll answer again since you can't comprehend. The question is stupid, you made up the question to elicit a particular response. Of course it is not my proposal that the Wings do nothing different to keep people like Laraque from hurting guys like Kronwall. It is my contention that not much will change the fact that players on every team, whether they have enforcers or not, will receive cheap shots and that some times those cheap shots result in injury. The fact that you don't like the result (Kronner getting hurt) doesn't mean that different actions (other than obvious ones like not playing him) would have changed the fact that the cheap shot happened and Kronner was hurt. Laraque is not the slightest bit intimidated by May and I don't think would have changed his behavior in the slightest because May was dressed (he might have fought and then the cheap shot or maybe the cheap shot then fought). You always deal in abstracts that mean nothing because they cannot be proven one way or the other. I do think having a guy like May helps when there is a scrum, provides great entertainment, and is an overall plus for the team BUT I also think your obsession that if we would have just had an enforcer dressed we would have drastically different results to an intentional injury caused by Laraque is silly.

How does that jive with this?

You do or do not think that the Wings should do something different in order to keep actions like the one taken against Kronner from happening again? I'll help you out. Your answer will not be blah blah blah, it will be "I think the Wings should stay the course and change nothing, actions like the one that injured Kronwall are not preventable" (thus contradicting yourself) or you could say "I propose that the Wings make the following changes to reduce the risk of another player being injured by a cheapshot (list actions)".

...and I don't think "How can we prevent this?" is a stupid question to ask after your team or company takes a hit it can't really afford to take again in the future.

It is pathetic that you have to chop up my statement so that you can continue in your ignorance and lies. Your question is like the question "when did you stop beating your wife." You specifically asked is it [my] proposal that the Wings do nothing different to keep people like Laraque from hurting guys like Kronwall? To answer in the negative to that question would be stupid thus my response. However, read the rest of my post that you convienetly left out and you will see that my contention is that cheap shots are a part of the game that happen to all teams and will continue to happen to all teams until the NHL not the Red Wings do something different. To help cleanse you ignorance here is the rest of my post you conveniently left out:

Ok I'll answer again since you can't comprehend. The question is stupid, you made up the question to elicit a particular response. Of course it is not my proposal that the Wings do nothing different to keep people like Laraque from hurting guys like Kronwall. It is my contention that not much will change the fact that players on every team, whether they have enforcers or not, will receive cheap shots and that some times those cheap shots result in injury. The fact that you don't like the result (Kronner getting hurt) doesn't mean that different actions (other than obvious ones like not playing him) would have changed the fact that the cheap shot happened and Kronner was hurt. Laraque is not the slightest bit intimidated by May and I don't think would have changed his behavior in the slightest because May was dressed (he might have fought and then the cheap shot or maybe the cheap shot then fought). You always deal in abstracts that mean nothing because they cannot be proven one way or the other. I do think having a guy like May helps when there is a scrum, provides great entertainment, and is an overall plus for the team BUT I also think your obsession that if we would have just had an enforcer dressed we would have drastically different results to an intentional injury caused by Laraque is silly.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

IMHO you really can't compare what took place 20 years ago to what we see in todays game.

Yes - the league was much more violent from the 1970's through the mid 1990's in which every team had several plus guys on the bench who had no trouble dropping the mitts. It also happens to be a time frame in which many players scored 50 plus goals per season from the likes of Gretzky, Bossy, Lemieux, Yzerman, Sakic, etc, etc.

By the early 1990's we see many more Euro born/trained players entering the league, and the quality of play skyrocket - thus teams with an abundance of thugs were lurking near the bottom of the standings...Even with this new talent there were still players like Claude Lemieux, Sammuelsson, Chelios, and yes - even our very own Konstantinov who were labeled "dirty" by their opposition. This didn't eliminate the need for a few guys whom can handle the rough stuff - it just reduced their numbers per team considerably, and it also made them aware that if they can't play the game, or bring an element to the game that'll benefit the team - they'll never be dressed.

As for a guy like May - yes I certainly do feel he has a place on the Red Wings roster; he can play up to several minutes a game, and will do what is asked of him - the consumate team guy.

As for your comparison of how teams play the Ducks when they play the Red Wings - I'm not gonna switch my allegiance for a months time that you've asked since I think your right; most teams more or less do play a bit more chippy against the Ducks when compared to our beloved Red Wings - hell even the Wings get a bit more frisky when they face-off against the Asses from Anaheim.

All in all there's still a need for a guy, or 2 like May in the line-up; if there wasn't then we'd see alot less teams dressing these guys as well.

I think it's more than appropriate to compare the 70s/80s to the modern era in terms of thugdom (new word, like it?), because the argument is on the prevalence of cheap shots, which is not subject to rule changes (because cheap shots were always illegal), tho the import of the Euros did lessen the need to waste roster spots on the enforcers... It is perfectly legitimate to say that in most every instance where more enforcers have been used, more cheapshots have occurred. Be it in the modern NHL and what a team like the Ducks have to face every day, or looking back through history at all the cheap vs non-cheap eras of hockey. Enforcers are not a deterrent, if anything the opposite result occurs.

Also interesting to note, none of the guys you mentioned were fighters... they were all agitators/hitters that still have a place in the modern NHL... Claudia, Ulf, Vladdy, and even Cheli (at least the past decade) weren't fighters or enforcers. I'd take Vladdy's contributions (which are a lot like Kronwall's) any day of the week, over any current defenseman not named Lidstrom... I also like May's play a lot, but could care less how often he fought. What I don't subscribe to is the belief that enforcers make or break a team, or are "needed"... and I think there is very little in the way of evidence (i.e. stanely cup victories) to support the notion that someone with the role of enforcing makes a team better.

I do, however, 100% believe a team has to be tough to win, but it's a toughness of character and determination, not a toughness of fists.... the injuries and tribulations the Wings have faced so far will certainly show how tough the squad is... but if we make the playoffs as a decent seed, I do not envy the team that will have to face a healthy and angry Wings squad.

Edited November 24, 2009 by RedWings Gone Wild

[Guest micah]

It is pathetic that you have to chop up my statement so that you can continue in your ignorance and lies. Your question is like the question "when did you stop beating your wife." You specifically asked is it [my] proposal that the Wings do nothing different to keep people like Laraque from hurting guys like Kronwall? To answer in the negative to that question would be stupid thus my response. However, read the rest of my post that you convienetly left out and you will see that my contention is that cheap shots are a part of the game that happen to all teams and will continue to happen to all teams until the NHL not the Red Wings do something different. To help cleanse you ignorance here is the rest of my post you conveniently left out:

I read all that, silly. You could sum it up by saying "I think the Wings should stay the course and change nothing, actions like the one that injured Kronwall are not preventable." You know, like I recomended:) Yes, I know it contradicts your ealier statement and exposes you for what you are, but still.

[RedWings Gone Wild 6]

I read all that, silly. You could sum it up by saying "I think the Wings should stay the course and change nothing, actions like the one that injured Kronwall are not preventable." You know, like I recomended:) Yes, I know it contradicts your ealier statement and exposes you for what you are, but still.

side-note; in the past few seasons we've had roughly the same # of injuries due to cheap shots as we've had Stanley cup finals appearances... so, yes, staying the course would be terrifying.... We've also had more long-term injuries because of guys deciding to fight than we've had from cheap shots (ala' Kopecky and Lilja)... so, considering your hyperbole over injuries, shouldn't you logically be advocating that the Wings fight less?

[Guest Shoreline]

side-note; in the past few seasons we've had roughly the same # of injuries due to cheap shots as we've had Stanley cup finals appearances... so, yes, staying the course would be terrifying.... We've also had more long-term injuries because of guys deciding to fight than we've had from cheap shots (ala' Kopecky and Lilja)... so, considering your hyperbole over injuries, shouldn't you logically be advocating that the Wings fight less?

Stay the course.

I know that human and fish can co-exist peacefully. But we need an enforcer.