If Howard becomes the "guy".....

[Nightfall 871]

Playoff goalies are a rare breed thats for sure. The ones that are money in the playoffs on a consistent basis are definite treasures. Look at Cam Ward who won a Stanley cup after ousting Gerber and then taking his team to the conference finals a couple years later. Brodeur and Roy were also true playoff performers. Not every playoff performer wins every game so a lot of it has to do with defense in front of them as well. As a goaltender, it doesn't all come down to one factor (defense, rebounds, confidence, skill, etc.) but everything.

Howard will get experience in the playoffs hopefully, and you have to hope he rises to the occassion. Like Ward did his first playoff series. Like Roy did. Like Hiller did. You don't want them to pull a Legacy and falter in the first round, but wait, the team didn't play hungry enough to beat Edmonton either though. Not entirely his fault, but he still should have played better.

You can't say you aren't going to start someone because they don't have experience. You get experience by starting the game. I say we wait until the end of the season to see what happens. There is still 4 months of hockey left. I would be comfortable with either goalie starting at this stage. The goalie isn't going to be the make or break in the playoffs. There are many make or break pieces to consider such as the team, the health of the team, hunger of the team, etc.

[zettie85 106]

Playoff goalies are a rare breed thats for sure. The ones that are money in the playoffs on a consistent basis are definite treasures. Look at Cam Ward who won a Stanley cup after ousting Gerber and then taking his team to the conference finals a couple years later. Brodeur and Roy were also true playoff performers. Not every playoff performer wins every game so a lot of it has to do with defense in front of them as well. As a goaltender, it doesn't all come down to one factor (defense, rebounds, confidence, skill, etc.) but everything.

Howard will get experience in the playoffs hopefully, and you have to hope he rises to the occassion. Like Ward did his first playoff series. Like Roy did. Like Hiller did. You don't want them to pull a Legacy and falter in the first round, but wait, the team didn't play hungry enough to beat Edmonton either though. Not entirely his fault, but he still should have played better.

You can't say you aren't going to start someone because they don't have experience. You get experience by starting the game. I say we wait until the end of the season to see what happens. There is still 4 months of hockey left. I would be comfortable with either goalie starting at this stage. The goalie isn't going to be the make or break in the playoffs. There are many make or break pieces to consider such as the team, the health of the team, hunger of the team, etc.

The goalie very much so can be the make or break. If you look back at the finals over the last 15 years every team that won and most every team that lost had amazing goal-tending all the way through. We don't win the cup without Ozzie in 08. The same could be said for other aspects but goalies steal games.

I'm comfortable with either at this point as well but Howard is our future and needs to get in those games. He surprised most us this year as well as the Wing's brass. Now we have to adjust to the new situation. Jimmy is showing more promise then ever and needs to be tested.

[titanium2 867]

I think Howard would struggle like he did when he first started out this year. But can the Wings afford to lose those 2-3 games of Howard's adjustment period while in the playoffs?

[Datsyerberger 279]

All things considered, I think this is the perfect situation to usher Jimmy into playoff play provided his good play continues. The Wings org have already stated they would be happy making it to the 2nd round this year; they know they're on a retool year (and while a cup would be a most welcomed blessing, there are stronger contenders this year). This makes it an excellent year to take a chance with a goaltender who could potentially become huge and help lead the team beyond where they could get otherwise (I'm not saying Ozzie is incapable of such, mind). If nothing else, it's a good chance for Howie to get some playoff experience, and he knows he can do so and play without breaking unrealistically high expectations this year, and with someone solid (and whom he seems to look up to) backing him up.

[Opie 308]

All things considered, I think this is the perfect situation to usher Jimmy into playoff play provided his good play continues. The Wings org have already stated they would be happy making it to the 2nd round this year; they know they're on a retool year (and while a cup would be a most welcomed blessing, there are stronger contenders this year). This makes it an excellent year to take a chance with a goaltender who could potentially become huge and help lead the team beyond where they could get otherwise (I'm not saying Ozzie is incapable of such, mind). If nothing else, it's a good chance for Howie to get some playoff experience, and he knows he can do so and play without breaking unrealistically high expectations this year, and with someone solid (and whom he seems to look up to) backing him up.

Thinking along these lines Babs could tell him, you are our guy in the post season until you lose 2 games in a series.

That way at worst the Wings are 0-2 in a series when Ozzie comes in.

The worry here is he has that on his head instead of just playing.

I still think this team should go into the Playoffs with Ozzie in net and I am one of the biggest J-Ho fans here.

However I think this year this team can sneak up on a few teams in the post season when healthy, and make a decent run. To do that I think they need to play Ozzie.

The caveat here is that Ozzie must play the lion's share of the games leading up to the playoffs, so the team can get used to a new playing style back there, as well as that Babs will need to evaluate and if the team D turns back to Oct (they tend to play better team D in front of Howard) then he should go with Howard based on how the team plays in front of him. Which is really what I believe Babs is doing now. I don't think there is a conspiracy or whatever, he is just playing J-Ho because the team (except ANA and LA) plays better in front of him.

Edited January 12, 2010 by Opie

[zettie85 106]

Thinking along these lines Babs could tell him, you are our guy in the post season until you lose 2 games in a series.

That way at worst the Wings are 0-2 in a series when Ozzie comes in.

The worry here is he has that on his head instead of just playing.

I still think this team should go into the Playoffs with Ozzie in net and I am one of the biggest J-Ho fans here.

However I think this year this team can sneak up on a few teams in the post season when healthy, and make a decent run. To do that I think they need to play Ozzie.

The caveat here is that Ozzie must play the lion's share of the games leading up to the playoffs, so the team can get used to a knew playing style back there, as well as that Babs will need to evaluate and if the team D turns back to Oct (they tend to play better team D in front of Howard) then he should go with Howard based on how the team plays in front of him. Which is really what I believe Babs is doing now. I don't think there is a conspiracy or whatever, he is just playing J-Ho because the team (except ANA and LA) plays better in front of him.

Lose 2 games? How about just play poorly? He could stop 50 shots in a loss. If he gets a the shot we should ride him win or lose unless of course they are blow outs and he's terrible.

[zettie85 106]

All things considered, I think this is the perfect situation to usher Jimmy into playoff play provided his good play continues. The Wings org have already stated they would be happy making it to the 2nd round this year; they know they're on a retool year (and while a cup would be a most welcomed blessing, there are stronger contenders this year). This makes it an excellent year to take a chance with a goaltender who could potentially become huge and help lead the team beyond where they could get otherwise (I'm not saying Ozzie is incapable of such, mind). If nothing else, it's a good chance for Howie to get some playoff experience, and he knows he can do so and play without breaking unrealistically high expectations this year, and with someone solid (and whom he seems to look up to) backing him up.

This is bang on the way a coach should run a club and I'm hoping this is what Bab's goes for.

[Guest zackmorris]

With the heightened intensity of the playoffs, rebound control is so vital.... and Osgood is still a lot better than Howard at it.

Hiller last year gave up a ton of juicy rebounds, despite playing unbelievable... and while the Ducks were superb at clearing most of them, it had a lot to do with why the Red Wings won in the end, IMO. Giguere does not give up rebounds like that.

On the same note, Giguere sucks at most everything else. Just like Ozzie these days. What's more important, something like rebounds, which arguably are overrated anyway? Or a goalie who is better in all other aspects?

I think the time to talk about this will be in 25 games or so when we can see if Howard's still doing what he's doing.

[gcom007 1,465]

There are three reasons why I think Osgood will get the nod:

1) Osgood has been the best playoff goalie the last two years, won a Cup in the process, was one game away last year with a Conn Smythe-worthy run, has the experience, 3 Cups, 2 are his, yada yada yada...it's tough to bet against this guy again no matter how well the rookie has played.

2) Even if Jimmy keeps playing in a manner that suggests he has what it takes, there's no reason to "test" his playoff legs in his first year when you have Osgood who has proven throughout his career and the last two years that he is one of the best goalies when it matters most.

3) This one is definitely a stretch so bear that in mind, but I can't help but think Holland has or will consider it: there's no reason to rush Howard along too much at this point when he'll need to be signed to a new contract sometime next season. He's continually proving that he's got what it takes to be a solid goalie in this league and his biggest issues can be worked through over the next couple summers. I don't think they need or want to get Howard to $5 million/year or more status so soon when you've got a guy like Osgood around who you can count on to be good enough to win a Cup. It makes the most sense to keep Howard in "learning mode" this season and next not only for his own development (taking it slower with a goalie is not a bad thing) but for the sake of signing him to a reasonable contract next year. I want the guy to stay, but I don't want to become one of the many teams who makes the mistake of paying their goalie too much money.

[zettie85 106]

There are three reasons why I think Osgood will get the nod:

1) Osgood has been the best playoff goalie the last two years, won a Cup in the process, was one game away last year with a Conn Smythe-worthy run, has the experience, 3 Cups, 2 are his, yada yada yada...it's tough to bet against this guy again no matter how well the rookie has played.

2) Even if Jimmy keeps playing in a manner that suggests he has what it takes, there's no reason to "test" his playoff legs in his first year when you have Osgood who has proven throughout his career and the last two years that he is one of the best goalies when it matters most.

3) This one is definitely a stretch so bear that in mind, but I can't help but think Holland has or will consider it: there's no reason to rush Howard along too much at this point when he'll need to be signed to a new contract sometime next season. He's continually proving that he's got what it takes to be a solid goalie in this league and his biggest issues can be worked through over the next couple summers. I don't think they need or want to get Howard to $5 million/year or more status so soon when you've got a guy like Osgood around who you can count on to be good enough to win a Cup. It makes the most sense to keep Howard in "learning mode" this season and next not only for his own development (taking it slower with a goalie is not a bad thing) but for the sake of signing him to a reasonable contract next year. I want the guy to stay, but I don't want to become one of the many teams who makes the mistake of paying their goalie too much money.

Even if Howard wins a cup this year, no team on earth outside the KHL is gonna pay the kid more then 3 mil a year.

There is more of a need to rush him seeing as how he needs the experience and nobody else is ready to play this role yet. Ozzie is a safe back up for the playoffs and should be transitioning to the full time back up. We need to rush Howard so we can see what kind of playoff goalie he is. I don't care if he's bad as long as he shows promise. We aren't winning a cup this year. We get to the second round and that will be fine with me. There is no pressure this year, it's perfect for Jimmy. If we some how get to the finals he would have gone above and beyond what was asked of him.

There is no need for Ozzie to start. We aren't going for the cup and we need to see what this kids got.

[Shady Ultima 40]

I completely forgot about that! I stand corrected. That being said, I know we jumped out to a nice lead but wasn't there another reason aside from just giving Ozzie a rest? I know the Wings dominated that game, but I thought there was another reason other than the lead being secure.

The reason for that was that if we had won the cup, he would have his name on the cup. If he had not played at all, he would not have been on the cup.

[Dynheart 42]

I kind of do too. If Ozzy is playing well, I'd honestly probably feel better with him between them pipes, knowing what he did the last two seasons.

But I would like to see what Jimmy is capable of, and I'm also a little annoyed at Ozzy's up and down regular season play. If he flipped the switch again, it'd be a nice problem to have to potential starting goaltenders, but still begs the question "why couldn't you play that way in the regular season?"

I just wanted to reply to this. There are 2 aspects to the game of hockey (sports...anything really), one being the physical and the other being the mental. Ozzie wasn't gifted in the size dept. for a natrual goalie, nor does he do it with athletics. It's all in the positioning...when he's off just a TAD, it's in. He's that small...The other part, the mental aspect, Ozzie excels in. Some people feed off of the adrenaline, others buckle. Ozzie is that player who needs that level of competion to play better. You know what I'm talking about, this just doesn't pertain to hockey, or even sports in general. You also cannot emulate that level no matter what you say or do until it's in your face. Ozzie is probably one of the best goalies in the league when it comes down to that level. Why? Too many jsut buckle under that type of pressure, he doesn't. The coin goes both ways, though. You need 5 compotent players in front of you, to help you succeed (see game 6 and 7 in last years play offs).

[Nightfall 871]

The goalie very much so can be the make or break. If you look back at the finals over the last 15 years every team that won and most every team that lost had amazing goal-tending all the way through. We don't win the cup without Ozzie in 08. The same could be said for other aspects but goalies steal games.

I'm comfortable with either at this point as well but Howard is our future and needs to get in those games. He surprised most us this year as well as the Wing's brass. Now we have to adjust to the new situation. Jimmy is showing more promise then ever and needs to be tested.

A goalie is no more a make or break than the defense, offense, bounces, and pure luck. You can have the best goalie in the world, but if your offense can't score, you are SOL. If your defense lets through a lot of breakaways, you will lose the game. If the puck doesn't bounce your way, you lose.

Of course we don't win the cup without Ozzie in 08, just like the Bolts don't win the cup without Nikolai or the Hurricanes don't win without Cam Ward. The rest of the team has a huge part to play in it though. No one part is more important than the others.

There are some people who say that goaltending is the make or break of the team as a whole. If you think about it, every part of the team is a make or break. Thats why its a team effort.

I guess thats a better way of saying what I wanted.

Edited January 13, 2010 by Nightfall

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

The reason for that was that if we had won the cup, he would have his name on the cup. If he had not played at all, he would not have been on the cup.

That's not necessarily true. First and foremost, the criteria for automatically getting your name on the cup is 41 regular season games or 1 game played in the finals, which Conklin never did. He only played in the WCF's. That being said, Conklin played 40 regular season games and was the reason the Wings fared as well as they did. As a result, he would've met the "special exceptions" criteria.

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

That's not necessarily true. First and foremost, the criteria for automatically getting your name on the cup is 41 regular season games or 1 game played in the finals, which Conklin never did. He only played in the WCF's. That being said, Conklin played 40 regular season games and was the reason the Wings fared as well as they did. As a result, he would've met the "special exceptions" criteria.

That isn't how it works.

Conklin was listed on the roster every game (including the finals) so that counts.

It is like having Leino on the roster but sitting him the entire time out of spite. He still gets credit for being at the game.

[Opie 308]

That isn't how it works.

Conklin was listed on the roster every game (including the finals) so that counts.

It is like having Leino on the roster but sitting him the entire time out of spite. He still gets credit for being at the game.

Beat me to it, as a backup he was on the roster most of the games, a back up gets credit for the game even if they see no ice time.

It is not games played, but games on the roster.

[Hockeytown0001 7,652]

Kind of like old Vernie and young Ozzie.

Does this mean that Howard will become the next Ozzie?

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Does this mean that Howard will become the next Ozzie?

If he wins us two more cups I'll be fine with that.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

That isn't how it works.

Conklin was listed on the roster every game (including the finals) so that counts.

It is like having Leino on the roster but sitting him the entire time out of spite. He still gets credit for being at the game.

I didn't state that the right way given Conklin was a roster player. I was referring to non-roster players and obviously Conklin wasn't an example of that.

In any event, yes that's correct.

[RyanK 1]

Playoffs?

[zettie85 106]

Playoffs?

haha Playoffs?

[Guest zackmorris]

If he wins us two more cups I'll be fine with that.

Goalies don't win Cups. Teams do.

[gcom007 1,465]

Even if Howard wins a cup this year, no team on earth outside the KHL is gonna pay the kid more then 3 mil a year.

There is more of a need to rush him seeing as how he needs the experience and nobody else is ready to play this role yet. Ozzie is a safe back up for the playoffs and should be transitioning to the full time back up. We need to rush Howard so we can see what kind of playoff goalie he is. I don't care if he's bad as long as he shows promise. We aren't winning a cup this year. We get to the second round and that will be fine with me. There is no pressure this year, it's perfect for Jimmy. If we some how get to the finals he would have gone above and beyond what was asked of him.

There is no need for Ozzie to start. We aren't going for the cup and we need to see what this kids got.

We're not going for the Cup? Really? I know Jimmy D has said stuff here and there and I don't fault him for it, but make no mistake, this team wants to win the Cup this year and they know they've still got a shot.

Howard will get a lot of experience sitting on the bench watching and observing the best playoff goalie of the last two seasons while in his rookie season this year. And don't take that sarcastically. I'm not trying to be demeaning at all. Watching this year from the bench and being the backup will be outstanding experience for him.

Remember, he's signed through next season as well, and if he's going to pan out, he needs another solid regular season to prove it anyways. Both he and Osgood will be in the final year of their deals next season. If Howard has another strong regular season, outplaying Osgood or at least playing as well, I think then you have to see what kind of a playoff goalie he can be. He'll be more ready for it after two regular seasons and watching a veteran do it firsthand in the playoffs this year and thus stand a better chance at success.

If he proves he can hack it next post-season, he gets signed again to starting money and Osgood will likely retire. If he blows it in the playoffs or regular season even, I think he'll still get signed, but for less money and Osgood will likely get signed up again as well if he plays as well this year and next as he has the previous two years. Holland won't let that go at a million bucks if Howard is shaky.

But this is a question for next year. Again, I see far more benefit in starting him next year as opposed to his rookie year. Babcock may not like Osgood, but at this point, I think he even knows that, or at least knows better than to test Ken Holland on the matter...

[Guest zackmorris]

If Howard wins it all, he wouldn't get 3 mil? Are you kidding?

Never underestimate the desperation of certain GMs who want to or have to a) get off the cap floor b) overpay for flash in the pan players and c) get into a bidding war

He's young, a fairly high draft pick who we've deemed our future. I get we're cheapskates who undervalue everyone but if you think someone wouldn't give him around 5 you're not with it. Winning a Cup boosts the rep of any goalie. Look at what it did for Fleury, who is mediocre.

Edited January 14, 2010 by zackmorris

[gcom007 1,465]

Goalies don't win Cups. Teams do.

Goalies are part of a team, no?

I think it's tough for a goalie to win a Cup on his own, I'll give you that. You can look at Hasek in Buffalo, Cujo in 2004, or even last year with Osgood and the Grand Rapids Red Wings as examples of that. You need all the parts kicking to win.

But I'll tell you for certain, a goalie can very easily LOSE you the Cup and kill a teams momentum.

We've been really lucky to only have one goalie screw us in the playoffs in the last 15 years, and that was Manny Legace. We've never lost a series because of goaltending sans when Legace was starting. Though the team wasn't great that year, they weren't so bad that we couldn't have made it out of that series if we had Osgood, Hasek or Cujo in net.

Why?

Legace fell apart and gave up every backbreaking goal imaginable and he did so against marginal offensive pressure at best. Basically, he just sucked. It doesn't help the team when you've got a goalie playing like s***.

If Howard sees action and s***'s the bed like Legace did, what do you think that's going to do to the team? When Osgood goes in there and is cool every game and making the big saves, that's huge for a team.

Now, I'm not saying at all that Howard can't be that guy, and I sure as hell hope he can, but it's yet to be proven. Plenty of guys have proven that they can win games and look solid in the regular season only to fall apart in the playoffs when the real pressure is on. I'm not taking anything away from Howard yet as he obviously hasn't had a chance to prove himself one way or the other.

But make no mistake, it takes a top notch goaltender playing sharp hockey with a clear head for two months straight to win the Cup, and that's no easy task. That said, should a goalie be up to the task, there's still no guarantee of 16 wins. But I can most certainly guarantee you that no team will win a Cup without it.