The Wings look tougher this year than they have in recent memory.

[Guest micah]

This year I've observed less cowardly stuff out of our beloved wings. Less diving, less hiding behind linesmen, and more swagger.

It sucks that this has coincided with the worst hockey the wings have played in years, but I don't believe the two are directly related.

Have you noticed the same? If so what do you suppose the reason(s) are? If I had to guess, I would say that the presence of Brad May has contributed, as have Abdelkader, Janik, Ericsson, Eaves et al. Not guys who have to fight every night, but guys who will not allow themselves or their teammates to be bullied, guys who have some passion. I also think Mike Babcock has a lot to do with it. Babs inherited a team with no attitude, but over the years he's turned that around. Players like Datsyuk who used to be lauded for being afraid to go in the corners and would shy away from contact now initiate contact, at least occasionally. With Franzen out hurt, every big body on the wings except Holmstrom is a big body willing to put itself in harm's way to defend a teammate. I really like this squad. As I've always maintained that I don't need a team that leads the team in FMs or that takes dumb penalties, I just want a team that isn't physically intimidated by their opponents - and for a few years there, the wings were. Don’t get me wrong, I loved every win - but the flopping and cowering were embarrassing. Here's to the 09/10 Detroit Red Wings!

[seeinred 1,488]

Good post, though I don't necessarily agree 100% with your assessment of previous teams.

But yeah, there's something really fun about knowing that your team is a team in every sense, especially in that I-got-your-back kind of camaraderie.

As for reasons, I really do think losing more has a part in it. If you're winning, you really don't care if you get pushed around a little bit. But if you're consistently losing, or at least not winning as much as usual, you have to take pride in something else. Or try anything to jump start the team.

I think another thing is guys being baptized by fire. Meech with a FM, and he probably realized that it's not so bad to get hit. Cleary dropped them again because he had to, even though he could have turtled because of his shoulder. I think just seeing guys like Cleary, Meech, Eaves actually drop them has an impact on the team. Guys may think, "Hey, I'm at least as tough as them." And each time, they may get a little more confidence to stand up for themselves or their teammates.

Ooooor, I could be talking out of my ass.

Edit: reasons

Edited January 20, 2010 by SeeinRed

[Guest micah]

Good post, though I don't necessarily agree 100% with your assessment of previous teams.

But yeah, there's something really fun about knowing that your team is a team in every sense, especially in that I-got-your-back kind of camaraderie.

As for reasons, I really do think losing more has a part in it. If you're winning, you really don't care if you get pushed around a little bit. But if you're consistently losing, or at least not winning as much as usual, you have to take pride in something else. Or try anything to jump start the team.

I think another thing is guys being baptized by fire. Meech with a FM, and he probably realized that it's not so bad to get hit. Cleary dropped them again because he had to, even though he could have turtled because of his shoulder. I think just seeing guys like Cleary, Meech, Eaves actually drop them has an impact on the team. Guys may think, "Hey, I'm at least as tough as them." And each time, they may get a little more confidence to stand up for themselves or their teammates.

Ooooor, I could be talking out of my ass.

Edit: reasons

I tend to agree with your reasons. A May or a Brashear or a Probert is expected to be tough, it's easy to look at them and think "well yeah, they play tough because they're different than me, I couldn't do that..." until you eat a punch or two, realise it isn't the end of the world, and your attitude changes a bit. Eaves gets up in the morning and looks at his face, and I bet he feels a certain sense or pride about it. I suspect his teamates feel it too. eaves wasn't brought in to throw his fists, but he wasn't afraid to, and that kind of attitude is contagious.

I don't know if I agree that our record has much to do with it. Certainly losing games is frustrating and can cause a player to lose his temper - but I don't think we've been seeing that. I also don't think that our previous teams didn't stand up for themselves solely because they had the satisfaction of winning on the scoreboard. Even when you're winning 45-0, being bullied, taunted and even laughed at, (sometimes by officials!) can't feel good.

[Guest R2D2]

Agreed.

I have enjoyed watching this team, albeit struggling to make the playoffs, more than the finesse style of play as in previous years. This type of team with the players and character will excel in the playoffs, not fall apart either.

[stevkrause 1,247]

Good post, though I don't necessarily agree 100% with your assessment of previous teams.

But yeah, there's something really fun about knowing that your team is a team in every sense, especially in that I-got-your-back kind of camaraderie.

As for reasons, I really do think losing more has a part in it. If you're winning, you really don't care if you get pushed around a little bit. But if you're consistently losing, or at least not winning as much as usual, you have to take pride in something else. Or try anything to jump start the team.

I think another thing is guys being baptized by fire. Meech with a FM, and he probably realized that it's not so bad to get hit. Cleary dropped them again because he had to, even though he could have turtled because of his shoulder. I think just seeing guys like Cleary, Meech, Eaves actually drop them has an impact on the team. Guys may think, "Hey, I'm at least as tough as them." And each time, they may get a little more confidence to stand up for themselves or their teammates.

Ooooor, I could be talking out of my ass.

Edit: reasons

agreed... I don't think the glut of previous teams were soft, maybe a few years, but overall, I think they just chose to play smart rather than spend time in the box...

But overall, I do think this is one of the grittiest teams we've had since the late 90's... I like the fact that big E never lets a guy stand in the crease after a whistle and pushes everyone out the minute the whistle goes off, I like the fact that guys like Eaves, Cleary and hell, even Meech, have dropped them when it needed to be done... even if they were outmatched fight wise(Meech, Cleary injured shoulder), I like the fact that we have a guy that will keep teams honest and go through a wall for teammates, but can still actually play the game of hockey and not just waste space as a goon in May and finally, I like the fact that we have guys crashing and banging and the hitting has increased tenfold...

I still maintain that once Franzen and Kronwall are healthy, this will be a VERY different team score wise... but the toughness will still be there and that is a good combination to have

[Guest R2D2]

I'm thinking this thread will quickly become the pro versus anti enforcer debate. Lets see who emerges...

[redwingfan19 293]

in before the pro enforcer/ anti enforcer debate !

Edited January 20, 2010 by redwingfan19

[redwingfan19 293]

agreed... I don't think the glut of previous teams were soft, maybe a few years, but overall, I think they just chose to play smart rather than spend time in the box...

But overall, I do think this is one of the grittiest teams we've had since the late 90's... I like the fact that big E never lets a guy stand in the crease after a whistle and pushes everyone out the minute the whistle goes off, I like the fact that guys like Eaves, Cleary and hell, even Meech, have dropped them when it needed to be done... even if they were outmatched fight wise(Meech, Cleary injured shoulder), I like the fact that we have a guy that will keep teams honest and go through a wall for teammates, but can still actually play the game of hockey and not just waste space as a goon in May and finally, I like the fact that we have guys crashing and banging and the hitting has increased tenfold...

I still maintain that once Franzen and Kronwall are healthy, this will be a VERY different team score wise... but the toughness will still be there and that is a good combination to have

agree and disagree

this team is no where near as tough as it was in the 90's, also since when does playing tough game lead to spending time in the box? just because you play a tough game doesn't mean you will spend a lot of time in the box as long as you play it clean and hard and not be dirty and undisciplined like the ducks

other than that I agree with what you said, good post

[stevkrause 1,247]

agree and disagree

this team is no where near as tough as it was in the 90's, also since when does playing tough game lead to spending time in the box? just because you play a tough game doesn't mean you will spend a lot of time in the box as long as you play it clean and hard and not be dirty and undisciplined like the ducks

other than that I agree with what you said, good post

agreed 100%... I think you just mis-interpreted some of my points...

this team is not as tough as it was in the 90's... I said it's the toughest we've had SINCE the 90's... not saying it is equal to... and in reference to the penalties, hitting and playing teams tough does not necessarily mean more penalties, but still toughens up your game, however, the after the whistle stuff CAN lead to penalties... it's not a matter of tough or not tough, there's a lot of grey area, but generally speaking, the more physical of a game you play, the more likely you are to take penalties, as they are all subjective to the refs...

[Doc Holliday 1,888]

Eh.

The team doesn't participate in much cowardly stuff (though Sammy was one of the only guys who did that with such intensity), but I don't see a team that is inherently bigger.

I think the fact there are so many role playing guys in higher roles (Eaves, Abdelkader, Miller, etc) that you see them much more often and you see more gritty plays than normal. Personally I think this is the biggest discrepancy between this year and the years past.

I also don't consider Holmstrom a big body by any means.

Also if you are up 45-0 on a team, I'm sorry but nobody is going to hurt my feelings with their bullying. Go ahead. Show me how pissed off you are. You are getting your taint handed to you so you might as well show me that you aren't completely worthless as a player, right? And they have no reason to laugh considering their team is getting spanked on the scoreboard. Suck it, *******.

Edited January 20, 2010 by Doc Holliday

[Guest micah]

Also if you are up 45-0 on a team, I'm sorry but nobody is going to hurt my feelings with their bullying. Go ahead. Show me how pissed off you are. You are getting your taint handed to you so you might as well show me that you aren't completely worthless as a player, right? And they have no reason to laugh considering their team is getting spanked on the scoreboard. Suck it, *******.

I disagree. Hockey is not the only measure of a man. Winning is nice, but simply being on the winning team does not make one above contempt in my book. The way people conduct themslves in victory or defeat matters to me too. "At any cost.." has never been my motto, at least not in a sporting event. I suspect most Devils fans share your way of thinking.

At 6'0", 202 lbs, Tomas Holmstrom is a big body, bigger than the average wing, at least. He looks even bigger when you take into acount his extra padding.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

We have less euros than we have had since about the late 90's, so it's only natural that the team became a lot grittier and tougher.

Also, because of injuries, guys like May, Newbury and Janik got playing time which they wouldn't have had otherwise.

I think if this team was healthy all season, they'd be just as reluctant to fight and stand up for themselves as they have in the past, because guys like Franzen, Kronwall or Homer aren't going to do anything but turtle.

[Echolalia 2,961]

I think the toughness is more a product of all the role players we have getting 2nd and 3rd line minutes. When Franzen and Homer and Williams all come back, there's less opportunity for Eaves, Abby, Miller, May etc to get on the ice.

[Guest R2D2]

in before the pro enforcer/ anti enforcer debate !

Where do you stand with it? So who's who in this whole enforcer debate. Who are the anti and pro enforcer spokespeople? Anyways, I think several people have made good points. Wings have more role players and more character this year than in years past.

Call me crazy, but I think the Wings have a better chance the way they're built now in a Stanley Cup Final than last year. No doubt.

[rick zombo 3,739]

We have less euros than we have had since about the late 90's, so it's only natural that the team became a lot grittier and tougher.

Also, because of injuries, guys like May, Newbury and Janik got playing time which they wouldn't have had otherwise.

I think if this team was healthy all season, they'd be just as reluctant to fight and stand up for themselves as they have in the past, because guys like Franzen, Kronwall or Homer aren't going to do anything but turtle.

You'd also see a team sitting in at least fourth place in the West right now, instead of plugging away in 9th.

[Zetts 236]

I do believe that their tougher play is tied to why they've been worse this year. In my opinion, it has to do with the injuries. We've got a lot of scrubs busting their balls (except for Leino) instead of skill players with a pile of pretty plays. The type of play, in my eyes, creates a different mentality for the team.

And, also as the OP mentioned, Babcock has helped.

[kook_10 1,705]

I think the toughness is more a product of all the role players we have getting 2nd and 3rd line minutes. When Franzen and Homer and Williams all come back, there's less opportunity for Eaves, Abby, Miller, May etc to get on the ice.

I sort of agree with this. What I think that means though, is that the Wings don't have the skill level they've had in the past which had allowed them to execute the puck possession style of play they want to. Early in the year it became apparent that the new guys don't have the poise to hang on to the puck, and don't have the skill to keep/take it away from their opponents with finesse, so they've had to fight for more pucks and physically engage in battles for the puck. This year we've seen as many blind passes and desperate puck dumps as the Wings had made probably in the previous 3 or 4 years. I think Babs as well as the boys see that the physical engagement that is necessary is also part mental. As such the Wings can't let themselves get pushed around after the whistles, or else they will get pushed around in the corners and in front of the net too. If you can't keep the puck you have to win the puck.

[Guest micah]

You'd also see a team sitting in at least fourth place in the West right now, instead of plugging away in 9th.

Maybe. Maybe they'd be in first if they'd dumped Franzen off to someone else and held on to Hossa. Maybe.

Regardless, I'm enjoying this season, even with less frequent wins, than I have any recent regular season. I always liked the Wings and was happy for them when they did well - but I'm less likely to channel flip on Center Ice this year while watching a Wings game than I have been in recent years.

[Guest micah]

I sort of agree with this. What I think that means though, is that the Wings don't have the skill level they've had in the past which had allowed them to execute the puck possession style of play they want to. Early in the year it became apparent that the new guys don't have the poise to hang on to the puck, and don't have the skill to keep/take it away from their opponents with finesse, so they've had to fight for more pucks and physically engage in battles for the puck. This year we've seen as many blind passes and desperate puck dumps as the Wings had made probably in the previous 3 or 4 years. I think Babs as well as the boys see that the physical engagement that is necessary is also part mental. As such the Wings can't let themselves get pushed around after the whistles, or else they will get pushed around in the corners and in front of the net too. If you can't keep the puck you have to win the puck.

I agree, and I think this new mentality can only help the team when the injured guys come back. A team that has the skill that our A squad does combined with the grit and determination the guys have shown so far this year will be tough to beat.

[egroen 384]

They're also blocking pucks as a team much better in the regular season than they ever have before -- which is great!

In previous years, they seemed to save it for the playoffs... and of course sucked at it (having not done so in the regular season).

Pittsburgh, for example, more than made up for a lack of good defense by consistently blocking shots... I'm happy to see the Wings getting better at it.

[Rick Zombos Ghost 82]

yes they look tougher. notice how that has translated to wins? oh wait...

Edited January 20, 2010 by Rick Zombos Ghost

[Finnish Wing 110]

We need more enforcers.

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

It's good to have fighters and grinders on your hockey team, even if they don't have much skill, but not on the 2nd line.

I've always wanted the Wings to have a 3rd and 4th line full of checkers and fighters, but no one here advocated having the top 2 lines full of those players.

So anyone blaming this team's success on the fact that they're tougher is crazy. The tough guys are only in the lineup because of injuries and can't be blamed for this team's lack of sucess.

You can't blame these guys for not scoring when the top guys aren't putting the puck in the net either.

The ideal team has balance of skill and toughness. Like say the '97 Wings or even the '08 Wings.

[newfy 695]

yes they look tougher. notice how that has translated to wins? oh wait...

I knew as soon as I saw this thread there would be some idiot trying to derail what looked to me like good discussion. Congrats Rick Zombos Ghost you get the douchebag poster of the day award, presented toy ou by Newfy.

Anyways yeah the wings have been playing tougher game overall this season and its really nice to see. You wouldn' see Hudler or Sammy going with Versteeg off teh draw likes Eaves did against Chicago. Which is something that 3rd and 4th liners should be able to do.

I just wish Cleary and Setoguchi went when Cleary's houlder was healed, I think he woulda tuned him.

[seeinred 1,488]

It's good to have fighters and grinders on your hockey team, even if they don't have much skill, but not on the 2nd line.

I've always wanted the Wings to have a 3rd and 4th line full of checkers and fighters, but no one here advocated having the top 2 lines full of those players.

So anyone blaming this team's success on the fact that they're tougher is crazy. The tough guys are only in the lineup because of injuries and can't be blamed for this team's lack of sucess.

You can't blame these guys for not scoring when the top guys aren't putting the puck in the net either.

The ideal team has balance of skill and toughness. Like say the '97 Wings or even the '08 Wings.

I'm not sure that anyone's blaming the team's performance on the increase in toughness. It is fun to see the correlation rubbed into the enforcer slappies faces, though, especially the ones who think enforcers magically win games.