Val Filppula

[Z and D for the C 712]

So.......at what point was he a steal/is he going to be one? He is is being paid just like 88 other guys. That doesn't mean they aren't overpaid.

So every player between 2 million and 4 million is being over paid?

How much does a player have to produce over 82 games to be worth 3 million?

I don't know why you keep bringing up Leino has though he matters. He played a meaningless 13 games. Filppula has played more than double, and since the start of the season to the current point in the season has kept pace for 50 points, and that's including a 26 game injury. It's not like I'm picking 10 of his most productive games and saying that's what he will produce in a season. We're two thirds into the season and filppula has continually scored enough for 50 points over 82 games. From 13 games in the middle of the season, projections mean nothing, but over two thirds of a season, they do.

Edited February 1, 2010 by Z and D for the C

[Finnish Wing 110]

I'm still waiting responses for my three previous posts.

[RedWingAbner 13]

I don't think Filatov will ever be an NHL calibre player. I mean look at these stats:

2008-09 Columbus Blue Jackets NHL 8 4 0 4 0

2009-10 Columbus Blue Jackets* NHL 13 2 0 2 8

You may be right, he may stay in the KHL. That's beside the point.

[RedWingAbner 13]

So every player between 2 million and 4 million is being over paid?

How much does a player have to produce over 82 games to be worth 3 million?

I don't know why you keep bringing up Leino has though he matters. He played a meaningless 13 games. Filppula has played more than double, and since the start of the season to the current point in the season has kept pace for 50 points, and that's including a 26 game injury. It's not like I'm picking 10 of his most productive games and saying that's what he will produce in a season. We're two thirds into the season and filppula has continually scored enough for 50 points over 82 games. Projecting from 13 games in the middle of the season mean nothing, but over two thirds of a season, they do.

Not every player is overpaid, but some. Regarding production-- it depends on the position. For instance, Nik Kronwall=generally underpaid, considering what he brings to the table as an offensive, physical defenseman. As a 3rd liner who puts up 40 points and plays good d.....that's a Kris Draper in his prime. Don't remember ever paying him much above $2, $2.5 M.

I keep bringing up Leino because we keep doing the "he's projected to" thing. Projections don't mean much. Let's see him produce over the course of a season. Or 3.....in which he averages 31 points.

[clutchngrab 12]

More numbers:

There are 88 players making between 2 million and 4 million per year. From these players, there are 32 players that have a higher P/G than filppula, and 54 with lower P/G. Compare this to 42 players who make as much or more, and 45 players who make less.

This isn't taking how great he is defensively into account.

Now I'm not saying Filppula is a steal or anything this season, but he is worth his salary, period. It's stupid to argue against this.

That sums it up for me. Nice post.

[Finnish Wing 110]

Not every player is overpaid, but some. Regarding production-- it depends on the position. For instance, Nik Kronwall=generally underpaid, considering what he brings to the table as an offensive, physical defenseman. As a 3rd liner who puts up 40 points and plays good d.....that's a Kris Draper in his prime. Don't remember ever paying him much above $2, $2.5 M.

I keep bringing up Leino because we keep doing the "he's projected to" thing. Projections don't mean much. Let's see him produce over the course of a season. Or 3.....in which he averages 31 points.

I think you should read this now, because you obviously haven't done that yet. Just read it and think about it for a moment.

"- Fil we think is a second-line center in the NHL." - Mike Babcock (who obviously doesn't know anything about hockey)

Edited February 1, 2010 by Finnish Wing

[clutchngrab 12]

I mean this whole argument about being worth 3mil is overdone when he is clearly worth say 2mil. All this when we have Rafalski making 6mil. Ridiculous.

[titanium2 867]

I think you should read this now, because you obviously haven't done that yet. Just read it and think about it for a moment.

Well because it was posted earlier in this thread he probably has already read it but really, that kind of article is worthless to him. He won't get it.

[Z and D for the C 712]

Not every player is overpaid, but some. Regarding production-- it depends on the position. For instance, Nik Kronwall=generally underpaid, considering what he brings to the table as an offensive, physical defenseman. As a 3rd liner who puts up 40 points and plays good d.....that's a Kris Draper in his prime. Don't remember ever paying him much above $2, $2.5 M.

Okay, so describe what a center who makes 3 million should be?

I keep bringing up Leino because we keep doing the "he's projected to" thing. Projections don't mean much. Let's see him produce over the course of a season. Or 3.....in which he averages 31 points.

Did you not even read my post?

[RedWingAbner 13]

Exactly. That is how market value works in basically everything in life about buying and selling. Or do you have some exact value for guys putting up X amount of points? That would be like in Soviet Union where every product had its solid value.

I think that Franzen argument was pretty good. Is he worth the money? Because Filppula would be get +50 points this season if he had been able to play 82 games. And to say he's only a energy player is wrong. He's a great player defensively.

The point is, it's an inexact science. It's about opinion. But yeah, I see your point.....if everyone else is overpaying for 3rd liners, then yeah, it's worth it? No thanks. The Rangers can keep Drury (at least his play this year), the Leafs can enjoy Jeff Finger, etc.

[RedWingAbner 13]

Well because it was posted earlier in this thread he probably has already read it but really, that kind of article is worthless to him. He won't get it.

I'm sure there are articles about the greatness of Eric Lindros or the fine postseason play of Steve Duchesne in 2002. That doesn't mean anything now.

[RedWingAbner 13]

I think you should read this now, because you obviously haven't done that yet. Just read it and think about it for a moment.

"- Fil we think is a second-line center in the NHL." - Mike Babcock (who obviously doesn't know anything about hockey)

Yep, keep providing quotes, because a coach/GM can't be wrong. How's Alexandre Daigle doing? What about Matthias Weinhandl (in the NHL)?

[Z and D for the C 712]

Okay, so describe what a center who makes 3 million should be?

[paulwoodsfan 52]

Unrelated, but as a Paul Woods fan, does it bother you that he says "Kurt" Maltby all the time?

I can't actually hear him where I am now, but I used to listen to him. Now that you mention it he does seem to have a very clipped way of saying Kirk. Oh well, he's a good colour guy otherwise and he doesn't chuckle all through the game like Mickey does.

[Finnish Wing 110]

The point is, it's an inexact science. It's about opinion. But yeah, I see your point.....if everyone else is overpaying for 3rd liners, then yeah, it's worth it? No thanks. The Rangers can keep Drury (at least his play this year), the Leafs can enjoy Jeff Finger, etc.

Damn you're stupid. That was my whole point there. The other teams are just paying players what they think their value is and that's how the market works. It doesn't mean they're overpaying them. If you wan't to know who are really "overpaid" (based on point totals) you should do this: lets say there are X guys in the league who put up 50 points. You calculate the salary total of them all and then divide it with X. Every player who get's more than the average is overpaid and everyone who gets less is underpaid.

But that's only statistically, and only about points. Filppula is so much more than that.

[RedWingAbner 13]

Okay, so describe what a center who makes 3 million should be?

Did you not even read my post?

I read your post. He's played 29 games. Still not quite enough for me to say he's gonna meet projection. The season may be two-thirds over, but he's played in under half of the games.

A center for $3 mill? How about Ryan Kesler at $1.75? He's already topped Val's career high point total.

Generally, not sure. What's a $6 M defenseman? Is it Wade Redden? Brian Rafalski? I doubt it. They are paid that much though, and most people realize it's too much.....like I do with Flip. In a cap world, even $1M more than deserving can screw up your team's chances.

I guess I didn't really answer your question. Remember when Zetterberg was making like $2.9 per season and scoring 60-70 points? He played sound defense and I don't remember thinking, "Man, we are overpaying this guy" or "His salary will be justified when he reaches his potential."

[Finnish Wing 110]

I read your post. He's played 29 games. Still not quite enough for me to say he's gonna meet projection. The season may be two-thirds over, but he's played in under half of the games.

A center for $3 mill? How about Ryan Kesler at $1.75? He's already topped Val's career high point total.

Generally, not sure. What's a $6 M defenseman? Is it Wade Redden? Brian Rafalski? I doubt it. They are paid that much though, and most people realize it's too much.....like I do with Flip. In a cap world, even $1M more than deserving can screw up your team's chances.

I guess I didn't really answer your question. Remember when Zetterberg was making like $2.9 per season and scoring 60-70 points? He played sound defense and I don't remember thinking, "Man, we are overpaying this guy" or "His salary will be justified when he reaches his potential."

Read my previous post and do the math please. I'm sure there are players who put up more points than Filppula with smaller salary but that doesn't mean Filppula is overpaid.

[titanium2 867]

Yep, keep providing quotes, because a coach/GM can't be wrong. How's Alexandre Daigle doing? What about Matthias Weinhandl (in the NHL)?

Sure it's possible that they're wrong but I haven't seen anything from you that shows you're less wrong than they are. You watch them on TV while they see them in person every day and can give a good evaluation of what they can do on a consistent basis. They're trained to look for the subtleties and intangibles in the game of hockey at the NHL level; things that most internet geeks don't notice.

[RedWingAbner 13]

Damn you're stupid. That was my whole point there. The other teams are just paying players what they think their value is and that's how the market works. It doesn't mean they're overpaying them. If you wan't to know who are really "overpaid" (based on point totals) you should do this: lets say there are X guys in the league who put up 50 points. You calculate the salary total of them all and then divide it with X. Every player who get's more than the average is overpaid and everyone who gets less is underpaid.

But that's only statistically, and only about points. Filppula is so much more than that.

Really? I'm the dumb one, but you are saying "herd mentality" is sound economic reasoning? The market dictates a price, but we can universally say when a guy is overpaid (see Campbell, Brian) and signing him doesn't make sense just because "the market dictates." Good thing Ken Holland doesn't generally do that, or the "market value" of Marian Hossa at 10 years and 90 million would still be holding us down.

[RedWingAbner 13]

Read my previous post and do the math please. I'm sure there are players who put up more points than Filppula with smaller salary but that doesn't mean Filppula is overpaid.

So, if one doesn't have a mancrush on Filppula, at what point is he overpaid? Is it not possible to do this with Filppula?

[Finnish Wing 110]

Really? I'm the dumb one, but you are saying "herd mentality" is sound economic reasoning? The market dictates a price, but we can universally say when a guy is overpaid (see Campbell, Brian) and signing him doesn't make sense just because "the market dictates." Good thing Ken Holland doesn't generally do that, or the "market value" of Marian Hossa at 10 years and 90 million would still be holding us down.

Just do the math already. Take every forward in the league who has almost the same ppg with Filppula and calculate the average salary. Unless you're scared?

[RedWingAbner 13]

Sure it's possible that they're wrong but I haven't seen anything from you that shows you're less wrong than they are. You watch them on TV while they see them in person every day and can give a good evaluation of what they can do on a consistent basis. They're trained to look for the subtleties and intangibles in the game of hockey at the NHL level; things that most internet geeks don't notice.

I can't argue with the fact that Mike Babcock sees him every day. I am sure the scouts that looked at Daigle saw him quite a bit too. It doesn't mean they can't be wrong.

Again, I am not saying he's not a good player, and I think that people are missing that. He's just a 3rd liner making too much money.

[RedWingAbner 13]

Just do the math already. Take every forward in the league who has almost the same ppg with Filppula and calculate the average salary. Unless you're scared?

Yep, I'm scared.....or I have a life. Why the hell would I do that when you want it to prove your point? If you are so convinced, you do it. Otherwise, I am fine knowing that it's a stupid point to try to make by asking if "I'm scared."

[Finnish Wing 110]

Yep, I'm scared.....or I have a life. Why the hell would I do that when you want it to prove your point? If you are so convinced, you do it. Otherwise, I am fine knowing that it's a stupid point to try to make by asking if "I'm scared."

Why you need to do the math? Because you're the one in the first place saying he's overpaid. If you wan't to know if he's overpaid (based only on point totals) you can do it like that. I'm sure he is not overpaid based on points, not to mention his defensive abilities.

[RedWingAbner 13]

Why you need to do the math? Because you're the one in the first place saying he's overpaid. If you wan't to know if he's overpaid (based only on point totals) you can do it like that. I'm sure he is not overpaid based on points, not to mention his defensive abilities.

Prove me wrong. I'm not wasting my time on that crap because I know that $3M is too much for a 3rd-line center.