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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

Official Poll: Filppula at 3 Mil. or Hossa at 5.4 + return for Filppul

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Filppula vs Hossa  

108 members have voted

  1. 1. In Hindsight would you have prefered the Wing's Brass to explore trade/moving options such as the Canucks inquiry in order to retain Hossa?

    • Hossa + possiblity of strong return
      70
    • Filppula
      32


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<!--quoteo(post=1909517:date=March 3, 2010 - 09:19PM:name=Z and D for the C)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Z and D for the C @ March 3, 2010 - 09:19PM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909517"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->I'm really trying to hard to insult you here, because Filppula doesn't play with any of them...

In that stretch, Filppula has played with Cleary, Miller, Bertuzzi, Ritola. Give him Franzen and he arguably could have been a PPG player over that time. Filppula has not played with anyone better than him at even strength this year.

And no, Filppula is not a goal scorer, but he's a<b> great setup man.</b><!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

And yet even though Hossa has only played TWO more games then Filppula, he has MORE assists and triple the amount of goals Filppula does.

Dude for 3 million Flip isn't supposed to carry a top 6 line, he is supposed to be an effective supporter on the either of the 2 lines. At Hossa's price tag you damn well better be one of the leaders on the top 6.

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Maybe you shouldn't be looking at this as having Flip cost us Hossa rather, Hollands horrible Raflawski/Cleary/hudler contracts are why we lost Hossa.

How did Hudler's former contract lose Hossa? He isn't on the cap hit...

And I don't think Cleary's contract is THAT bad.

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If he can't keep up with opposing top line players, then you have no business advocating he should be on a top line himself. Let him stay comfortable and deal with the other mediocre 3rd line players he's used to dealing with.

Oh and I did some digging and did find that there were indeed times he played on the top line (Filppula-Datsyuk-Holmstrom), especially at the beginning of the season. So its not like he hasn't been moved around a bit.

I mean, Homer has played only 13 more games yet has stilled riled up more points. He's also a -7.

Don't get me wrong....he's not BAD, he's just no where close to as good as you see him and simply incomparable to Hossa. Overall, just not that impressive for guy who you see to be this top line phenom.

When did I call him a top line "phenom"? Again, all I'm getting from you is idiotic arguments. He is a second line center, and him being on the third line with Miller and cleary/williams is a massive mis-allocation of his talent.

Holmstrom only played 13 more games and only has 5 more points. filppula's PPG is higher than Holmstrom's. Plus...who does Holmstrom play with? Didn't you just say Lebda could get 16 points in 21 games if he played with Datsyuk? Again, all I'm getting from you is idiotic arguments.

And no, he did not play with Datsyuk for any period of time. Trust me, I pay attention to him a lot, I would know. The first few games he played on the third line with Leino and Williams, then when Franzen got injured babcock put Zetterberg and Datsyuk together with Flip centering the second line and then Filppula was injured for 26 games. When he came back he played with Leino and Miller on the second line. show me proof of him playing with Datsyuk and holmstrom this year.

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

Okay, Hossa has played 3 (three <img src="http://www.letsgowings.com/forums/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/wink.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid=";)" border="0" alt="wink.gif" />) more games, has 2 more assists, and plays with the likes of Kane and teows, while filppula plays with Bertuzzi and Cleary. care to re-think your argument? s*** this comes out in my favor. Thanks.

But yeah, Hossa is 10 times the goal scorer flip is. I'm not disputing that.

1) He Does not play with Kane or Toews consistantly.

2) Considering that Filppula does not get assists at a 2/3 pace, Hossa is actually getting more assists per game

3) Hossa is better defensivily than Filpuula

4)Fillpula is on pace for slightly less than 13 goals this year (pro-rated if he had played 82 games). Hossa Prorated

is 40, and would've been 46 last year with the Wings.

I'd take slightly more assists and 33 more goals, and a few draft picks for a million more, especailly seeing as we allready have a premium on everything Val provides. And Yes we get it, Hossa plays with better linemates and gets slightly more time... thats what happens when you are plain better.

I'm sorry but this is ******* ridiculous, I think Filppula is a good player, heck I even think for a lot of teams having him at 3 million on a 2nd line spot would be a GOOD VALUED CONTRACT, but there is no way you can justify letting a player who is so much better than him for such a minor increase in pay, and thats not even figuring in the return from Filppula's trade, which I assure you would be quite good.

Oh, and even if Filppula steps it up, it dosent mean "we were proved wrong", as we have never said that he didn't have talent or potential. The only way I will eat crow is when Filpulla starts playing like a 5.5 milion player which is 1.5 below Hossa's REAL VALUE.

Edited by EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

<!--quoteo(post=1909511:date=March 4, 2010 - 12:10AM:name=Doc Holliday)--><div class='quotetop'>QUOTE (Doc Holliday @ March 4, 2010 - 12:10AM) <a href="index.php?act=findpost&pid=1909511"><{POST_SNAPBACK}></a></div><div class='quotemain'><!--quotec-->Can someone bring up the numbers to show what the team would look like with Hossa for Filpulla?

Who would need to go for the Hoss to be a part of this team other than Fil?<!--QuoteEnd--></div><!--QuoteEEnd-->

Just losing Filppula obviously wouldn't do it. You'd probably have to lose Williams and Bertuzzi.

Hossa Datsyuk Homer

Franzen Z Cleary

Draper Helm Eaves

Maltby Miller May

I remember a report saying that Hossa wanted a 4.3 million cap hit for 9 years with the wings, obviously frontloaded.

We could have afforded one of Bertuzzi + Williams, or saved up when that 2nd and 3rd rounders we would have gotten at the very minimum grow into good players.

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He may not always play with Kane or Toews, I think there is still no doubt that Hossa's linemates are much, much better than Flip's.

This year, Flip's assists per game is .46 and Hossa's is .48.

I disagree about Hossa be better defensively. Last year Flip got more PK TOI per game than Hossa. I think it's even.

I'm very skeptical about being able to sign Hossa at 4.3 million a season. I think the only number you can objectively use is his current hit he actually signed for.

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How did Hudler's former contract lose Hossa? He isn't on the cap hit...

And I don't think Cleary's contract is THAT bad.

Because if Holland knew we were losing Hudler he could have put that money towards Hossa

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1) He Does not play with Kane or Toews consistantly.

2) Considering that Filppula does not get assists at a 2/3 pace, Hossa is actually getting more assists per game

3) Hossa is better defensivily than Filpuula

4)Fillpula is on pace for slightly less than 13 goals this year (pro-rated if he had played 82 games). Hossa Prorated

is 40, and would've been 46 last year with the Wings.

I'd take slightly more assists and 33 more goals, and a few draft picks for a million more, especailly seeing as we allready have a premium on everything Val provides. And Yes we get it, Hossa plays with better linemates and gets slightly more time... thats what happens when you are plain better.

I'm sorry but this is ******* ridiculous, I think Filppula is a good player, heck I even think for a lot of teams having him at 3 million on a 2nd line spot would be a GOOD VALUED CONTRACT, but there is no way you can justify letting a player who is so much better than him for such a minor increase in pay, and thats not even figuring in the return from Filppula's trade, which I assure you would be quite good.

Oh, and even if Filppula steps it up, it dosent mean "we were proved wrong", as we have never said that he didn't have talent or potential. The only way I will eat crow is when Filpulla starts playing like a 5.5 milion player which is 1.5 below Hossa's REAL VALUE.

almost double the amount of money and time is a minor increase in pay??

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I remember a report saying that Hossa wanted a 4.3 million cap hit for 9 years with the wings, obviously frontloaded.

We could have afforded one of Bertuzzi + Williams, or saved up when that 2nd and 3rd rounders we would have gotten at the very minimum grow into good players.

pure speculation, how many viable sources said this?

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

almost double the amount of money and time is a minor increase in pay??

pure speculation, how many viable sources said this?

To answer both of your querries, both Mlive and the Detroit Free Press published reports saying that Hossa was asking for a 9-11 year deal that was less than 4.5. The specific number I cannot remember or was not published, but IIRC it was 4.3. I'm sure you can google and find the articles, it was posted and referenced several times here, but honestly I don't feel the need to validate a claim that many here remember being reported. If you don't belive me I dont really care, though I would at least like you to spend 5 minutes reading old articles, as I am sure you will find the referenced offers.

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Did he?

I'm saying if. It seems like he should have had an idea. You asked how it Hudlers contract affected Hossas, you don't think the money Holland was going to put towards Hudler couldn't have been given to Hossa?

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To answer both of your querries, both Mlive and the Detroit Free Press published reports saying that Hossa was asking for a 9-11 year deal that was less than 4.5. The specific number I cannot remember or was not published, but IIRC it was 4.3. I'm sure you can google and find the articles, it was posted and referenced several times here, but honestly I don't feel the need to validate a claim that many here remember being reported. If you don't belive me I dont really care, though I would at least like you to spend 5 minutes reading old articles, as I am sure you will find the referenced offers.

So pay Hossa 1.3 million more a year at the age of 30 for 9-11 years is better then 3 million for Flip? I still don't see how in the long run this a good idea, look at how f***ed this team is with the salary cap after losing Sammy/Hudler/Hossa how do you imagine we would be with another lllloooonnnggg contract that is 1.3 million more then one we already have?

We could have a team of geriatrics out there on the ice eventually, hell our team could turn into a father and son tandem with the old old vets and young rookies. I mean that's how long our contracts are going and his would have most certainly turned out. Maybe we even trade for Diepetro!

Edited by ben_usmc

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

I disagree about Hossa be better defensively. Last year Flip got more PK TOI per game than Hossa. I think it's even.

Well of course Filppula is going to get more PK time, you don't tire out a star player like Hossa playing heavy PK minutes when you have ready and capable role players like Val.

Through my observations there is only one form of defensive responsibility that Filpulla clearly outplays Hossa in and that is PK postioning, as Filppula normally takes the more defenseive route wheras from time to time Hossa would try to spring rushes from the PK, which isnt a bad thing but not the primary objective. That is the only thing Filppula is better than defensivily than Hossa, though some of the catagories and attributes are close.

On even strength tendancies such as Backchecking and being able to hold off opposing defenders to buy time on the penalty kill it isn't even close. In addition Filppula is more prone to turnovers in the defensive zone. When's the last time you've seen Hossa giftwrap a goal to the other team?

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Well of course Filppula is going to get more PK time, you don't tire out a star player like Hossa playing heavy PK minutes when you have ready and capable role players like Val.

Through my observations there is only one form of defensive responsibility that Filpulla clearly outplays Hossa in and that is PK postioning, as Filppula normally takes the more defenseive route wheras from time to time Hossa would try to spring rushes from the PK, which isnt a bad thing but not the primary objective. That is the only thing Filppula is better than defensivily than Hossa, though some of the catagories and attributes are close.

On even strength tendancies such as Backchecking and being able to hold off opposing defenders to buy time on the penalty kill it isn't even close. In addition Filppula is more prone to turnovers in the defensive zone. When's the last time you've seen Hossa giftwrap a goal to the other team?

really?? Not even close?

I'll tell you one thing I saw was Flip doing great in the playoffs while Hossa didn't do jack s***.

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

almost double the amount of money and time is a minor increase in pay??

Even by going by the number he signed with the caps, do you really think 2.4 million is a lot to ask for 33 more goals (find me a 30 goal scorer that signes for 2.4), the draft picks (which would be considerable) given and the same (if not better in my opinion), playmaking and defensive powers?

So pay Hossa 1.3 million more a year at the age of 30 for 9-11 years is better then 3 million for Flip? I still don't see how in the long run this a good idea, look at how f***ed this team is with the salary cap after losing Sammy/Hudler/Hossa how do you imagine we would be with another lllloooonnnggg contract that is 1.3 million more then one we already have?

We could have a team of geriatrics out there on the ice eventually, hell our team could turn into a father and son tandem with the old old vets and young rookies. I mean that's how long our contracts are going and his would have most certainly turned out. Maybe we even trade for Diepetro!

You are not taking into account inflation. The value of the U.S. dollar halfs every 20-25 years, and the cap by the time Hossa is 37-38 will most probably be over 65-68 million (a very, very conservative estimation). Even if it dosen't (an almost impossible scenario given the current economic situation) Hossa as a 36-37 year old at 5.4 million will most probably not be as bad as of an overpayment as Rafalski's contract is now.

To top it all off, Hossa and the Blackhawks were specifically called out on an agreement to retire at a certain age after his production halted off to a non-benifical point and his cap hit would be gone.

Edited by EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

really?? Not even close?

I'll tell you one thing I saw was Flip doing great in the playoffs while Hossa didn't do jack s***.

1) Hossa had a torn rotator cuff, which eventually required surgery. In addition to that Filppula had one more point than Hossa (and would have been even had he not have had a goal called off), and Hossa created much more offense on his own, wheras a lot of Filpulla's assists were of the secondary variety. Give Val a nice little torn rotator cuff and see how he plays.

2) Filpulla was utterly dominated by Malkin in the finals, a mismatch that was the clear difference. Not saying it was his fault, but that matchup was more or less the game breaking reason for losing several games.

3) And yes, really not even close. But what do I know about understanding the game... I only played Juniors.

Edited by EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

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1) Hossa had a torn rotator cuff, which eventually required surgery. In addition to that Filppula had one more point than Hossa (and would have been even had he not have had a goal called off), and Hossa created much more offense on his own, wheras a lot of Filpulla's assists were of the secondary variety. Give Val a nice little torn rotator cuff and see how he plays.

2) Filpulla was utterly dominated by Malkin in the finals, a mismatch that was the clear difference. Not saying it was his fault, but that matchup was more or less the game breaking reason for losing several games.

3) And yes, really not even close. But what do I know about understanding the game... I only played Juniors.

WOW your hockey credentials are amazing you should jump behind that bench and tell Babcock what to do..... So once again a 3 million dollar 2nd liner was owned by a top 3 player in the league, that is completely and utterly shocking. I wouldn't say it was the making or breaking in the finals, I would say pretty much s***ting the lead away and taking Abby out who was money against Pitt didn't help. Along with the willingness of letting Talbot ***** slap the entire team being another major contributing factor. Crosby and Malkin didn't own the wings at all it was the depth players who really stuck to us. Hossa didn't create much of s*** in the playoffs when we needed him too, and something about signing a 30 year old to a lifetime contract who has just come off surgery doesn't seem like a great idea when we already have our 2 injury prone lifetime contract players as is. Lastly wasn't there a huge tampering uproar about Hossa potentially skipping out on that contract. You think nothing will happen if he does, after being called out. I mean, I know your an expert playing in juniors and all but does that also make you a master of the political backlash within the NHL?

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To answer both of your querries, both Mlive and the Detroit Free Press published reports saying that Hossa was asking for a 9-11 year deal that was less than 4.5. The specific number I cannot remember or was not published, but IIRC it was 4.3. I'm sure you can google and find the articles, it was posted and referenced several times here, but honestly I don't feel the need to validate a claim that many here remember being reported. If you don't belive me I dont really care, though I would at least like you to spend 5 minutes reading old articles, as I am sure you will find the referenced offers.

I've agreed with a lot of your posts, but I would appreciate if anyone does have links to this (I never saw them)?

Even if true, this is pure speculation then... as to not sign Hossa for that amount would have been criminally insane on Holland's part (factoring inflation and growth $4.3m will be a 2nd/3rd line player in 8 years... IE. not a lot more than what we are paying Holmstrom and Draper at this point. And that's assuming Hossa is still playing, because if he is retired (or traded, or sent down) his salary comes completely off the books).

My understanding is Hossa was asking for around $6m during last season, so Holland locked up Franzen first. I think it is safe to assume Hossa came down from that in the off-season, but I highly doubt it was all the way down to $4.3m (it's not like the Wings are his only chance to win a Cup in the next decade).

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Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA

WOW your hockey credentials are amazing you should jump behind that bench and tell Babcock what to do..... So once again a 3 million dollar 2nd liner was owned by a top 3 player in the league, that is completely and utterly shocking. I wouldn't say it was the making or breaking in the finals, I would say pretty much s***ting the lead away and taking Abby out who was money against Pitt didn't help. Along with the willingness of letting Talbot ***** slap the entire team being another major contributing factor. Crosby and Malkin didn't own the wings at all it was the depth players who really stuck to us. Hossa didn't create much of s*** in the playoffs when we needed him too, and something about signing a 30 year old to a lifetime contract who has just come off surgery doesn't seem like a great idea when we already have our 2 injury prone lifetime contract players as is. Lastly wasn't there a huge tampering uproar about Hossa potentially skipping out on that contract. You think nothing will happen if he does, after being called out. I mean, I know your an expert playing in juniors and all but does that also make you a master of the political backlash within the NHL?

1) Nowhere in your post did you address the fact that Hossa was playing injured and still manged to play better than Filppula (same amount of points if that bulls*** call back was the same and more goals).

2) What is this poltical backlash you keep talking about? The League investigated it, and it is openly known that discussions of an early retirement, yet..... NOTHING HAS ******* HAPPENED. Don't you get it, allegations don't mean s***, what is the NHL going to do to the blackhawks... my guess is nothing detremental to them, instead going the route of closing up the loophole.

3) You still have not recognized that a 36-38 year old Hossa at that time would not be as bad of a value as you orginally stated, as the cap will certainly be higher, and come off as a signifigantly lower cap hit proportionatly then when it was signed.

Besides all of that you are drawing away from the orginal discussion, whether or not in Hindsight the Wing's made the right move by matching the offer sheet on Filppula. To me it is clear that they didn't. Even gracisouly saying that Hossa and Filpulla are "even" at defense and playmaking, you still have 30 goals for what was reported to be as little as 1.3 million diffiernce in contract, and no more than the 2.4 he signed with the Hawks. You find me a 30 goal scorer who signs for 2.4 million please. In addition you still have the draft picks which would have been considerable.

Quit acting like this an arguement you can win, it isn't. The evidence simply is not there. Every single facuet of the equation points out that in Hindsight this would have been a better move. I have provided evidence on why this is the case, most of which you refrain from referncing in lou of making personal attacks. Take a look at the poll even and this thread even... over half of the people who said Filpulla are simply basing it on incorrect assumptions about his future cap hit, which I hacve clarified.

Your lack of ability to think critically and understand situational and logical context is simply making you look like a hormone filled teenager who is hell bent on raging on an internet forum, which is supposed to be my job.

Wow, just stop arguing if you are going to use your glory days in junior as ammunition to talk down to another poster about the sport of hockey.

What a joke.

So you are honestly insituating playing the game with players who went on to the NHL, watching countless hours of film, and having some top coachs would not give you valuable hockey insight beyond the stereotypical keyboard warrior?

Right...

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