88 replies to this topic

[Pavrik Zettersyuk]

From another fan's perspective:

It has nothing to do with "your" success.

This response sounds bitter.

[Earthhuman]

I'm not sure what this random listing of players is supposed to represent. Players you don't like? Players we acquired via trade/free agency that won championships? Help me out here. I'm a Yankees fan, been one since 1994 so yeah, I'm going to defend them if I think the reasoning people are using to disparage them is faulty and/or dumb. We spend a lot of money, I've never said otherwise. I think it's great and am grateful we have an owner willing to part with however much he thinks he needs to in order to insure a quality product will be on the field every season. We may not win the WS every year, but at least the best possible team to achieve that is playing every night.

I did not dislike the Yankees until reading this post.

[Grypho]

It's the color. Every time I see the Wings, I just see red.

No, I don't hate the Wings. I hate the Stars. With a passion. But that's only because they are notorious (first hand experience here) for treating opposing teams' fans like absolute crap -- like, threateningly. Hockeytown fans aren't like that at all.

[Trapt1307]

From another fan's perspective:

It has nothing to do with "your" success.

...what?

[FIBS]

...what?

Reading 101.

The last thing I hate about detroit/the wings is their success.

[Pavrik Zettersyuk]

Reading 101.

The last thing I hate about detroit/the wings is their success.

Sounds like typical Red Wing hate; a ton of jealousy. You even specify the city of Detroit, not just the organization of the Wings and their fans. No one would hate an entire city if there's no bitterness and a green eyed monster (psst, that's envy).

[titanium2]

They hate the success of the Red Wings and yet they hang around here wanting to join the party. I wish we could just pull a Stifler and say, "There's no party here. Try the house down the street."

[Shoreline]

I'm currently writing a blog about why NHL teams' fans seem to hate the Red Wings. I'm in the process of asking fans of all the NHL teams why they seem to hate the Wings but I want to let the Wings fans get their opinions out there too.


So, Why do you think other NHL teams' fans seem to hate the Wings? Is it the players that make it this way? The owners? Bias in the media?



Any response would not only be helpful but greatly appreciated.


I've been off of the LetsGoWings.com forum for a while but DANG it's good to be back!

Why do so many Wing fans obsessively gripe about Crosby?

Because people tend to hate those that are winning.

[Blackhawkdown]

The Yankee comparison holds a little weight, but I dont think its 100% accurate. Personally, I hate the Yankees not because they win, but because of how unfair it is for them to buy up all the great players they want and basically put together an all-star team every year. I dont really blame the Yankees as much as I do MLB for letting them get away with it, but I still dont like their organization. I think a better comparison with the Yankees would be the Detroit teams from a few years back, when like the Yankees, they had one of if not the biggest payrolls in Hockey, and bought their fair share of players. This is another topic alltogether though.

As far as hate for the Redwings. Part of it has to do with the success, which is always going to happen, but a lot of my dislike for the Wings are because of their fans, and how arrogant they are. An example, a good friend of mine is a Wings fan, and we give other s*** all the time obviously, but his arrogance just gets annoying sometimes. It's like this past game 7 with Phoenix, he acted all cocky even when the Wings lost game 6 at home. I mean not confident in his team, but ridiculously arrogant. He was like "I'm not worried, Detroit will win game 7 easily". During the regular season, he never thought they would miss the playoffs because of all the injuries, he just basically said they will be there in the end, period. Its like Detroit has had so much success, that its just a given that they will be there every year, and no matter what happens they will win in the end. And like I said, its not just being confident, it gets to the point to where the cockiness just gets ridiculous. Its like you cant even talk to some Wings fans about Hockey because they just believe their team will always be there, end of story. They never deal in what ifs, or get nervous before a game, they just say "oh, we will win", and thats the end of it. Obviously, not all Wings fans are like this, but a lot of them that I deal with are.

At the end of the day Detroit is a very good organization, and even with a salary cap have remaind very successful. I respect that, but I still have my dislike for the team and most of their fans. Luckily, their are a lot of level headed Wings on this board, with a few of the before mentioned fans scatterd around.

[Grypho]

OK, let me take a serious crack at it. I'll do it by way of an unnecessarily long screed because typing is cheap and I can type fast, and by comparison, because I don't think it's as simple as jealousy (although that's a factor with some for sure). I won five poker tournaments in a row in Wuxi, China, and you could cut the air of resentment with a knife it was so thick! So past success and a childish sense of "hey, no fair you win so much!" is a valid complaint (worthy of dismissal).

But there can be more to it than that. Let's compare the Wings (and the other teams) with America (and the other countries).

Living in China, I constantly deal with the question about why some of my fellow foreigners, mostly Europeans, have such a low generalized opinion of Americans (not America the government, which is a separate issue, but Americans, and their attitudes and culture in general). Is that because they are "just jealous"? Hardly. I wouldn't be so daft as to think that. I know that I'm also dealing with prejudices, and stereotypes, most of which wouldn't exist for any country/nationality/whatever without some thread of reality, however distorted or magnified, to go on. Also, I don't take any prejudices personally, and I am more than aware that the perception dynamic changes completely whenever things are one-on-one.

Even so, one undesirable mark of a stereotypical American is rooted in positive self-perceptions that-are-by-comparison-or-at-the-expense-of-others.

1) Spouting "We're number one!" - or some other mantra that suggests the same thing. (we did invent foam fingers, among other things)
2) A general belief (by some individuals) that we really are number one, in everything, even if we aren't.
3) Isolation and Centrism - little knowledge or genuine interest in what others are all about, or have to offer. Little "other" awareness.
4) Laurels, and the resting thereupon - "We invented democracy."..."If it wasn't for us, you'd be speaking German/Japanese."..."Everything good that happens in the world is because of us."

I could make a long laundry list, but I won't. I can't stand blind America bashing, from within or without, any more than I can stand blind self-promotion. It all looks silly to me. Furthermore, it doesn't matter whether anyone is right or wrong about their perceptions, because we are talking about PERCEPTIONS - self and other - which are too often highly subjective.

So what about the Wings? Let's start with the fact that Detroit affectionately refers to itself as "Hockeytown". I personally like that. When I hear that I take it positively, as it just means that the sport enjoys broad, passionate community spirit and support in Detroit. From my experience, I LOVE sitting and watching a hockey game with a Wings fan, because THEY...LOVE...THE SPORT, generally speaking, of course. Likewise, sitting at a baseball game with my Cubs fan friends, and a hot dog, a beer and pretzel in hand, is a treat and a half for me. Feels like Americana to me. I can eat the atmosphere with a fork and spoon, it's so good.

Incidentally, why do you think I haunt the LGW site? Same reason, MATT...LOVES...HOCKEY. And he draws in kindred fans by the THOUSANDS. Who wouldn't want to be part of that? I would, enough to be a supporter even.

Now despite the Hockeytown nickname, which is loaded with implications that can be taken negatively, the reality is that hockey in Detroit (just like every major city that has more than one pro team) takes a firm back seat to other sports, like football, baseball, and basketball. Hockey is not the number one sport in "Hockeytown". The best you might do is compare it to "per capita support/spirit" -- in which case every Canadian hockey town might step in to rival Detroit with some very real claims of their own. And I'm sure New York, which has two hockey teams, might have some claims of its own to make as well.

But what about the past wins, past Cups, being part of the Original Six, the dynastic history, especially with the Bowman/Yserman/et al years? You all really do have a city that can stand proud, right?

Sure. But sometimes pride, over what you think might set you apart in a good way, can EASILY be delivered in an in-your-face elitist way that is not just fallacious, but can win you some richly deserved enemies and repels good people.

For example, hailing from San Jose, I've always been dismissive of any fan that makes a comment about hockey teams in places "where it doesn't even snow" -- as if that somehow makes a team any less worthy. But that is akin to the kind of attitude that some are treated to by some Original Six team fans. There's always the "eww, you're a newbie" kind of nonsense (and it is childish nonsense) that comes with any self-assessment, anything that might set you, or yours, "apart from the rest". Do any of you see hockey as a "Canadian Sport"? Well, originally, even before the Original Six, it was. But Detroit was right there in its infancy. Doesn't that make it at least part American? Ask the average Canadian hockey fan, and see what they say. And then ask yourself if the question even matters to anyone except the one taking exception. Because to me it doesn't. I don't have a problem with a Jamaican Bobsled Team. The more the merrier, especially in a sport that needs all the support it can get.

BUT...just as Europeans sometimes point to their older cultures as a point of implied superiority over, say, North and South Americans, Australians, etc., it is not uncommon to hear hockey fans from Canadian and Original Six teams especially, who will allude to a sense of superiority of their own on a similar (and equally fallacious) basis. Big deal. It's silly, but it's also human nature. Old rich snubs its nose at new rich. Freshmen are hazed by Juniors and Seniors. Newbies in many internet forums are often treated to house/bridge trolls that lie in wait to put the newbie in their places.

The Yankees, like the Red Wings, are often hated for what is seen (especially in the past, when there was far more truth to it), as The Team That Can Best Afford To Buy A Pennant/Cup. Follow the money, and it really is/was, to many, no longer about who is the most talented, but rather who could afford to stack the field deck with the best/most expensive talent. At that point, the reasoning goes, why not cut out the middle man (the sport itself) and cut to the core question that is being determined, which is which city (or owner) has the most money?

Fast forward to today, and there are many who see the past accomplishments as bought-and-paid-for-deck-stackings. Which is to say, no respect for the past laurels upon which some might want to rest.

The Hockeytown/Big Dynasty syndrome, if taken (or dished out) negatively, can sound presumptuous -- like there's a feeling of entitlement, or "more-worthiness" that goes along with it. For example, I remember well when the Sharks eliminated Detroit in '94. That didn't just upset Detroit. It seemed to upset the entire hockey world. Young upstarts, and who the hell are they to fluke their way past mighty and far more proven Detroit? NHL.com covered it...then stopped covering the Sharks pretty much altogether. Very, very strange, but its just a small portion of what happens even today with Eastern Conference coverage versus Western Conference. East is elite, older, more established, while the West is rough, and new (pronounced n-ewwwww). And poor not-so-western-after-all Detroit and Chicago (once the upstart) ended up divided from the East and thrown in with the newbie western upstarts.

What does that have to do with some people hating the Red Wings? I don't know, I was rambling and got lost along the way.

[/unnecessarily_long_screed]

[chuklz]

Why do so many Wing fans obsessively gripe about Crosby?

Because people tend to hate those that are winning.

Actually we dislike Crosby because of the actions of the League not necessarily Crosby. They hail him as The Next One, when really he's just a talented kid- like Zetterberg and Datsyuk. But why you elevate him up to Gretzky status without earning it- it draws alot of ire from those that are being purposefully neglected. If he had come to his reputation organically I think he could have earned some respect, but his lack of maturity (which is natural since he's so young) plus this false title makes him the crybaby douchebag that he is.

[Sgt. Angry]

Let me attack this from another angle. Let me compare the hatred of the Wings to the hatred some (including myself) have for Jimmie Johnson, the NASCAR champion. It is a situation where simple explanations just don't seem to add up. Given that all participants play by the same rules, it defies believability that the Red Wings or the Hendrick Motor Sports managements can be that much better or smarter than all of the other management teams to win as much as they do. So, if I can't believe that disparity of brain power or work ethic, then there must be some kind of shady business going on in the background. Just as Hendrick opponents can point out endless "phantom debris cautions" at races which favor the Hendricks, I'm sure there are others who consider it a given that the Wings are somehow "favored" by the NHL. I'm sure there are those who could talk about special rules for Lidstrom just as much as we can talk about special rules for Malkin & Crosby.

[Electrophile]

I did not dislike the Yankees until reading this post.

Good. I love Yankee Haters.

[FischersChick2]

The blog is all done and published if anyone would like to check it out.

The Puck Stops Here

Thanks again for all your help!

[webwing91]

Certainly some of it is just enjoying to see a great team lose (who doesn't like seeing the Sharks go down year after year eh?).

But there is another component, and that also comes from being so successful. Often many Wings fans are elitist. In that they make it known that other fans don't belong there, or are somehow less than Wings fans. I don't know, just sitting and observing as a Wings fan at Coyotes games this year, some other Wings fans were extremely annoying with their arrogance. Coming on here I sense it too, a higher than though attitude.

As far as the team, I don't think many fans really hate the team. Except for maybe Holmstrom, when you actually think player by player, there isn't anyone they can really hate. I mean who can't help but appreciate Datsyuk, Z, or Lidstrom?

Everything else is things you seem from fans of every team honestly.

Edited by webwing91, 29 April 2010 - 08:55 PM.

[Seraph]

A lot of it comes from the fact that we HAVE a lot of fans. The perception is that people like the team because they win, not because of the team itself. I think the fans are seen as bandwagoners who wouldn't have liked the team if they were not as successful through the years.

I think that the fact that we have had such a long string of success and anyone who has come through Detroit or moved away, continues being a fan, has given off a bad vibe. And it's frustrating to others to have their arenas fill up by the opposition's supporters when it looks like they're a bunch of bandwagoners and only like their team due to their success.

They don't call it Hockeytown for nothing though. You spend some time in Michigan, you're pretty much converted for life. It's a great team and a great tradition.

Edited by The Nephilim, 29 April 2010 - 08:55 PM.

[New Orleans Chris]

Just some perspective from a new Wings fan here...

from what little exposure I have had to other Wings fans (mostly on this site) I don't get the Yankee syndrome thing. I know the histories are similar, but the arrogance of Yankee fans puts them in a class by themselves among major league sports, equaled only (possibly) by Cowboys fans.

[dobbles]

i think people are putting too much into this Yankees comparison. i think 99% of the people that use the comparison mean it only in terms of their ability to win year after year. i don't think its supposed to be an across the board comparison that means Holland matches up with Brian Cashman or that Ilitch is the same as Steinbrenner. it is just used to make a comparison to another team that often gets universally hated for their success. obviously that 02 team brought comparisons to the Yankees in terms of buying championships, but that's not why most use the Yankees analogy IMO.

[kook_10]

i think people are putting too much into this Yankees comparison. i think 99% of the people that use the comparison mean it only in terms of their ability to win year after year. i don't think its supposed to be an across the board comparison that means Holland matches up with Brian Cashman or that Ilitch is the same as Steinbrenner. it is just used to make a comparison to another team that often gets universally hated for their success. obviously that 02 team brought comparisons to the Yankees in terms of buying championships, but that's not why most use the Yankees analogy IMO.

Before the Wings won in '02 they still hadn't won enough for people to make the Yankees comparison on winning or championships. It was all about the money, payroll and acquisitions. After the salary cap: different story.

Edited by kook_10, 30 April 2010 - 10:47 AM.

[Shoreline]

The Yankee comparison holds a little weight, but I dont think its 100% accurate. Personally, I hate the Yankees not because they win, but because of how unfair it is for them to buy up all the great players they want and basically put together an all-star team every year. I dont really blame the Yankees as much as I do MLB for letting them get away with it, but I still dont like their organization. I think a better comparison with the Yankees would be the Detroit teams from a few years back, when like the Yankees, they had one of if not the biggest payrolls in Hockey, and bought their fair share of players. This is another topic alltogether though.

As far as hate for the Redwings. Part of it has to do with the success, which is always going to happen, but a lot of my dislike for the Wings are because of their fans, and how arrogant they are. An example, a good friend of mine is a Wings fan, and we give other s*** all the time obviously, but his arrogance just gets annoying sometimes. It's like this past game 7 with Phoenix, he acted all cocky even when the Wings lost game 6 at home. I mean not confident in his team, but ridiculously arrogant. He was like "I'm not worried, Detroit will win game 7 easily". During the regular season, he never thought they would miss the playoffs because of all the injuries, he just basically said they will be there in the end, period. Its like Detroit has had so much success, that its just a given that they will be there every year, and no matter what happens they will win in the end. And like I said, its not just being confident, it gets to the point to where the cockiness just gets ridiculous. Its like you cant even talk to some Wings fans about Hockey because they just believe their team will always be there, end of story. They never deal in what ifs, or get nervous before a game, they just say "oh, we will win", and thats the end of it. Obviously, not all Wings fans are like this, but a lot of them that I deal with are.

At the end of the day Detroit is a very good organization, and even with a salary cap have remaind very successful. I respect that, but I still have my dislike for the team and most of their fans. Luckily, their are a lot of level headed Wings on this board, with a few of the before mentioned fans scatterd around.

If you hate the Wings and especially their fans this much (guess what fans are here?) why the f*** are you on their forums? Duh.