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WCQF Game Four GDT : Predators 3 at Red Wings 1


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#1441 CrimsonFlame

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:02 PM

HE ALLOWED 2 GOALS!!!!!!!! The 3rd goal really didn't matter. We were on the PK for the rest of the game!

My God. He makes 2.25 million, which is what below average goalies make! HE's a bargain. He's a good, solid goalie...not a spectacular one...and nobody's willing to spend cap money for one of those.

WE CANT SCORE, AND WE ARE TOO SLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fix the speed and size issue and maintain as much talent as possible while doing it and we'll be better.

Go buy Suter, Weber, and Parese, let Lids retire, get rid of Hudler, let Homer retire, tidy up a few things, and we'll be back next year.


Howard is average. We all know that. The problem is when everyone starts thinking that he is this elite goaltender who is the next coming of Brodeur. Everyone inclunding Ken Holland, Mike Babcock, and our entire defense corps.


The team plays like they can do what ever the f*** they want because Howard will be there to bail them out. But he can't. He's not Jonathon Quick. He's not Pekka Rinne. He's not Tim Thomas.

If we want to go anywhere with an average goalie we need a STRONG defense. And I don't just mean some hybrid defenders that earn their keep through points. I mean actual DEFENDERS.

#1442 King Crane

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:03 PM

Neither. I didn't think Howard would make it to be a starter for the Wings, but I would take him over those two.


Completely agree. He was that back-up kid with the horrible rebounds. He has really shown what hard work and determination can do. On top of that I think Howie exemplifies the Red Wings spirit. As I have posted in my sig, "I'll smile in June" - Jimmy Howard. WOW! And that isnt a prepared statement, it's his whole mentality. He's a serious player. If the team does poorly, he take the blame, if the team does well, he is first to give credit to whole before himself.

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#1443 b.shanafan14

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:03 PM

HE ALLOWED 2 GOALS!!!!!!!! The 3rd goal really didn't matter. We were on the PK for the rest of the game!

He allowed 4 goals. YOU deemed one unimportant, and the refs deemed another non-existent.

I agree, this team can't score for s***, but Howard has played OK at best, subpar being a bit more accurate. You look for your goaltender to make saves on scoring chances. Rinne has done that; Howard has not. What's more frustrating than not burying 1 of 20 in their end? Digging it out of your own net on 4 of 8.

#1444 gcom007

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:06 PM

Howard is average. We all know that. The problem is when everyone starts thinking that he is this elite goaltender who is the next coming of Brodeur. Everyone inclunding Ken Holland, Mike Babcock, and our entire defense corps.


The team plays like they can do what ever the f*** they want because Howard will be there to bail them out. But he can't. He's not Jonathon Quick. He's not Pekka Rinne. He's not Tim Thomas.

If we want to go anywhere with an average goalie we need a STRONG defense. And I don't just mean some hybrid defenders that earn their keep through points. I mean actual DEFENDERS.


Yep.

I've never been one to think a good all-around team needs an $8 million goalie. So many of those expensive guys still don't deliver Cups and oftentimes are pretty inconsistent themselves. I'd take solid guys that have moments of brilliance surround by a fairly steady hold on things like Osgood and Howard any year. Howard has not been the problem. Like I said before, he hasn't been lights out, but he's hardly been bad, and he's looking worse because he's getting hung out to dry when our skaters are pinching and frantic because we can't score.

I wasn't thrilled with that fluky 2nd goal, but I have absolutely no real beef with Howard overall.
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#1445 atodaso

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:07 PM

HE ALLOWED 2 GOALS!!!!!!!! The 3rd goal really didn't matter. We were on the PK for the rest of the game!

My God. He makes 2.25 million, which is what below average goalies make! HE's a bargain. He's a good, solid goalie...not a spectacular one...and nobody's willing to spend cap money for one of those.

WE CANT SCORE, AND WE ARE TOO SLOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fix the speed and size issue and maintain as much talent as possible while doing it and we'll be better.

Go buy Suter, Weber, and Parese, let Lids retire, get rid of Hudler, let Homer retire, tidy up a few things, and we'll be back next year.


He is a bargain. And for the most part, he has been great. But that second goal was pure garbage. It reminded me of Howard from the last two seasons where he was overcommitting at times. And even though it's only one terrible goal, it was truly a momentum killer. Not saying Howard is to blame for this loss but that was one hell of a time to have a brain fart.

#1446 gcom007

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:10 PM

He allowed 4 goals. YOU deemed one unimportant, and the refs deemed another non-existent.

I agree, this team can't score for s***, but Howard has played OK at best, subpar being a bit more accurate. You look for your goaltender to make saves on scoring chances. Rinne has done that; Howard has not. What's more frustrating than not burying 1 of 20 in their end? Digging it out of your own net on 4 of 8.


And how much worse off would we be if we had to subtract $5 million from our offense and defense to pay someone like Rinne when we already can't score goals?

He is a bargain. And for the most part, he has been great. But that second goal was pure garbage. It reminded me of Howard from the last two seasons where he was overcommitting at times. And even though it's only one terrible goal, it was truly a momentum killer. Not saying Howard is to blame for this loss but that was one hell of a time to have a brain fart.


We failed to capitalize on two power plays after that 2nd goal at home in the 3rd period in what for all intents and purposes is a must-win game. Who gives a s*** about momentum if our guys can't rise to the occasion on two power plays in a situation like we had tonight?
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#1447 atodaso

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:20 PM

Why? I could care less how many points he gets. When he's on the ice he is insignificant. People mistake cycling the puck around the perimeter as great hard working hockey. He is an average 3rd liner on most good hockey teams. This is what happened to us with Kronwall... The league started talking about how good he was and Holland bought into it and now were stuck with him. Trade him well he has value before we decide to consider him as a core player, then our core is a soft gooey thing like what you saw today


People wanted him to get traded last offseason, and the year before too. Then he suddenly has a breakout season and everyone loves him again. Then, he has one bad playoff series and everyone wants him gone again. He has too many positive qualities to let him go now. For all we know he could be playing hurt. This is why there are people getting paid a lot of money to make these kinds of decisions.

And how much worse off would we be if we had to subtract $5 million from our offense and defense to pay someone like Rinne when we already can't score goals?



We failed to capitalize on two power plays after that 2nd goal at home in the 3rd period in what for all intents and purposes is a must-win game. Who gives a s*** about momentum if our guys can't rise to the occasion on two power plays in a situation like we had tonight?


Hudler hit the post with the game tied. We had a lot going and then that goal happens. Either way the defensive breakdown on that play was just as ridiculous as Howard wandering out of his crease.

#1448 Z and D for the C

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:20 PM

Flip has been nonexistant this series


Huh? You just described his play.

strong on the puck and making smart plays even when he wasn't getting on the scoreboard.


Of the forwards not named Datsyuk and Zetterberg, he's be our best (or least mediocre). He's always strong on the puck, battling and play hard. He's not getting on the score board but that isn't to say he's playing bad. Now he isn't playing great either, but who on the team is? He's still playing a hell of a lot better than Hudler, Bertuzzi, Cleary and Franzen.

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#1449 b.shanafan14

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:26 PM

And how much worse off would we be if we had to subtract $5 million from our offense and defense to pay someone like Rinne when we already can't score goals?

We failed to capitalize on two power plays after that 2nd goal at home in the 3rd period in what for all intents and purposes is a must-win game. Who gives a s*** about momentum if our guys can't rise to the occasion on two power plays in a situation like we had tonight?

I agree. And Howard played amazing for most of the season prior to being injured. However, that doesn't change or excuse the fact that he has not merely been outplayed by a superior goaltender, but been another layer of soft on an increasing easier team to beat. Simple way to tell how the goaltending his doing, GAA or SV% aside: when you see a decent chance for the opposition developing, do you expect a save or a goal? Every chance Nashville has had this season I have grown to expect in the back of the net, and he hasn't proven me wrong yet.

Howard is not the number one issue on this team, but he is a player that should be playing a great deal better. The Wings were never going to score bushels of goals on Rinne. This series was going to be attrition, but what does allowing 3(4) goals on considerably less shots do for a gameplan that came in expecting few goals against a superior goaltender?

Maybe referencing anything from 2008 with this year's team is flawed from the start, but the same thing happened in the series against Nashville then. Ellis was playing absolutely lights out. The Wings carried territorial play, but every single scoring chance the Preds had, they buried on Hasek. Game 5, Osgood comes in and battles Ellis in a game of attrition. Even after the Preds scored with the goalie pulled at the end, Osgood managed to win 2-1. That year, when the Wings weren't starting on time or sagging with a lead, Osgood stopped the puck. When chances happened I expected him to save them. That's the simple difference.

Edited by b.shanafan14, 17 April 2012 - 11:28 PM.


#1450 13dangledangle

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:26 PM

I havent seen the game yet (just got off work) and am not to happy with what the score is but if this 3-1 loss is Jimmys fault Im going to let myself out of the rest of this thread and Ill see ya at game 5.
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#1451 BottleOfSmoke

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:29 PM

Huh? You just described his play.



Of the forwards not named Datsyuk and Zetterberg, he's be our best (or least mediocre). He's always strong on the puck, battling and play hard. He's not getting on the score board but that isn't to say he's playing bad. Now he isn't playing great either, but who on the team is? He's still playing a hell of a lot better than Hudler, Bertuzzi, Cleary and Franzen.


I agree with you, but can definitely see something...*off* with how he has been playing this series so far. I don't think he's been nearly as "brutal" (Jesus I had to type that six times to get it right) as some on here are saying he has been this series, but he's definitely having more brain farts since the playoffs started than he did during the regular season. He's been one of my favorite players this year, and I think he still has a lot to offer this team. I think all the calls to trade him are premature and reactionary, but can't help but wonder if he's playing hurt or if he has the yips. Again, not playing badly, just not necessarily playing up to the level I had become comfortable expecting him to play to.

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#1452 joesuffP

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:33 PM

[quote name='atodaso' timestamp='1334722819' post='2291842']
People wanted him to get traded last offseason, and the year before too. Then he suddenly has a breakout season and everyone loves him again. Then, he has one bad playoff series and everyone wants him gone again. He has too many positive qualities to let him go now. For all we know he could be playing hurt. This is why there are people getting paid a lot of money to make these kinds of decisions.

If flippula plays on the third line because we have a better top 6 that he doesn't fit in, then great, keep him... But he is not a top 6 forward on a Stanley cup winning team. Also, Franzen is a secondary scorer, a very good secondary scorer, but still, he shouldn't be your only shooter. Holland threw this team together and expected everyone to take a big step forward and form some Stanley cup winning top 6 when they just aren't.

#1453 RedWingsRox

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:34 PM

To Howard's defense, before he was injured, he was on pace to be Vezina nominee. I think the injury must be lingering. He has shown flashes of brilliance and really stole some games, like game 2 of this series but today, he was average and with a less than average team of forwards and defence, it ain't going to to it.

Edited by RedWingsRox, 17 April 2012 - 11:49 PM.


#1454 King Crane

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:35 PM

To Howard's defense, before he was injured, he was on pace to be Vezina nominee. I thin the injury is lingering. He has shown flashes of brilliance and really stole some games, like game 2 of this series but today, he was average and with a less than average team of forwards and defence, it ain't going to to it.

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#1455 gcom007

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:43 PM

I agree. And Howard played amazing for most of the season prior to being injured. However, that doesn't change or excuse the fact that he has not merely been outplayed by a superior goaltender, but been another layer of soft on an increasing easier team to beat. Simple way to tell how the goaltending his doing, GAA or SV% aside: when you see a decent chance for the opposition developing, do you expect a save or a goal? Every chance Nashville has had this season I have grown to expect in the back of the net, and he hasn't proven me wrong yet.

Howard is not the number one issue on this team, but he is a player that should be playing a great deal better. The Wings were never going to score bushels of goals on Rinne. This series was going to be attrition, but what does allowing 3(4) goals on considerably less shots do for a gameplan that came in expecting few goals against a superior goaltender?

Maybe referencing anything from 2008 with this year's team is flawed from the start, but the same thing happened in the series against Nashville then. Ellis was playing absolutely lights out. The Wings carried territorial play, but every single scoring chance the Preds had, they buried on Hasek. Game 5, Osgood comes in and battles Ellis in a game of attrition. Even after the Preds scored with the goalie pulled at the end, Osgood managed to win 2-1. That year, when the Wings weren't starting on time or sagging with a lead, Osgood stopped the puck. When chances happened I expected him to save them. That's the simple difference.


I mean, I'll give you that he hasn't been playing at the level you expect your goalie to be at in the playoffs. Maybe it's injuries or maybe he is struggling in these odd, lopsided affairs which find him seeing no shots for long stretches followed up by an odd-man rush out of nowhere thanks to blown coverage. But he's playing no worse than anyone else (though at times much better) and maybe that's part of the problem too. Everyone's focus just seems off. Everyone seems frazzled. I don't feel like high shot totals is ever a good sign for this team, because it often means that we're scrambling and less focused on quality and more on quantity, sheerly out of desperation and blind hope for a fluke. But anyways, with so many problems up front and likely in the locker room, perhaps it's just wearing off on Howard as well.

Any way you shake it, top to bottom, these Wings don't look like a playoff team. There's just not a lot of poise, and the desperation looks far too frantic as opposed to, I don't know, focused insatiable hunger perhaps? No one on this team has figured out how to push them over the top yet. Still tough for me to fault Howard. I think he may be a bit off from what he's capable of, but I do think he's capable of it, and I wouldn't be shocked if he rose to the occasion when the rest of the team did as well.

In my mind though, absolutely no goalie would carry this team of skaters to the Cup at this point. I don't care who it is from what era, this TEAM has far too many issues to make a Cup run.
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#1456 Carman

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:55 PM

The whole Howard issue comes down to break downs, how many turn overs, and odd man rushes have the Red Wings given up compared to Nashville? I can't even recall a clear odd man rush yet. We are sustaining pressure, but the quality of scoring chances are going Nashville's way by a large margin.

#1457 wolverine1817

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:55 PM

Guys, don't give up on your team. You have every right to be worried and feeling bad about the future of this series, but for god's sake son! Don't give up on your team!

I don't know how some of you can do it, obviously I think our chances of taking this series are slim, but I can't get myself to just count us out.

#1458 gcom007

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:56 PM

Guys, don't give up on your team. You have every right to be worried and feeling bad about the future of this series, but for god's sake son! Don't give up on your team!

I don't know how some of you can do it, obviously I think our chances of taking this series are slim, but I can't get myself to just count us out.


I haven't given up on my team, I've just given up on 2012.
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#1459 GoalieManPat

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:57 PM

I gave myself a couple hours before posting after the game. Here are my thoughts after tonight:

1. I hope Lids is still injured. If not his play has taken an astronomical decline the last couple months. He has been at best an average defender and thats hard for me to say as hes been my favorite Wings since I was 10.
2. I dont think I have ever seen a worse defensive breakdown in crunch time of an important game than I saw tonight on Nashvilles game winner. Was Erat really that dangerous that both defenders, a forward, and Howard had to follow him into the corner yet still allow him to pass it to a wide open teammate?
3. Stuart probably had his strongest playoff game tonight but since January he has played like he wants to get to the West coast as soon as possible.
4. It was nice to see Miller and Abdelkader try and make there imprint on the game.
5. Franzen seemed like he wanted to try and play a little bit more than the past 3 games but I wish he would have been a power forward and took that one chance far post instead of trying to be fancy. He goes strong to the other side of the net and he more than likely scores.
6. The only effective net front screen the Wings have had the whole series was .... Jiri Hudler. That tells you how they havnt been able to get to the net.
7. They had a lot of shots this game but I felt very few true scoring chances. Lots of far our shots that were just gloved.
8. Yes Jimmy didnt have his best game tonight. I think that called off goal rattled him a bit. But to say he is a problem is insane. The guy was a Vezina candidate until getting hurt and was the teams top player the last two post seasons. Hes the reason they have the only win this series.
9.The Wings are in a decline. They go from Cup Champs, to losing in the finals, to two straight 2nd round defeats, and then if Nashville closes them out Friday an embarrassing first round exit. Should that happen the team really needs changes. Im not saying blow it up but some players need to be moved on so fresh/young blood can be brought in. What Holland does this offseason will determine whether we have to suffer through 5 more years of playoff mediocrity or playoff success.

Now with that said Im not saying this series is over. The Wings proved last year that they could win three straight facing elimination but this team feels nothing like last years.
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#1460 irishock

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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:58 PM

^ It's useless to make all these arguments regarding Howard.

At the end of the day you're wasting your time as Mike and Kenny will just tell you that Howard made one bad error, and will get over it.

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