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#81 Johnz96

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:29 PM

It's funny to see people call Hossa a pure goal-scorer. He has scored 24, 25 and 29 goals in his three seasons with the Blackhawks.


With the over-sized goalie equipment these days those goal totals are impressive. He scored 29 goals this year which put him 31st in the league for goals. He scored 24 and 25 goals the previous years but missed a lot of games, he didn't start his first season with the Blackhawks until December because he was recovering from a shoulder injury that required surgery incurred while playing for the Wings in the playoffs(Babcock insisted on giving him top line minutes despite the fact that he was obviouslu injured and ineffective). 24 goals over 57 games equated to 35 over 82. 25 goals over 65 games equates to 32 over 82. While it is true he is so much more than just a sniper, he has the tools to excel in that role if that is what is required of him as is evidenced by the 40 goals he scored for the Wings in 74 games

#82 Crymson

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 01:49 PM

I never said he was the best at it in the League or anything, but he's generally considered a finisher rather than a playmaker or power forward. Largely based on his laser of a shot. He's scored 30+ goals seven times in his career and 40+ goals three times. Not exactly sure how you'd classify him?


He has reached 30 goals once in the past five seasons. He's not as dynamic a player as he once was. The "grass is greener" mentality here is what makes people label him a pure goal scorer. Blackhawks fans would not give him that title.

#83 Johnz96

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 02:12 PM

He has reached 30 goals once in the past five seasons. He's not as dynamic a player as he once was. The "grass is greener" mentality here is what makes people label him a pure goal scorer. Blackhawks fans would not give him that title.


While I do agree with you that most fans think the grass is greener on the other side but Hossa led one of the top scoring teams(6th in the league) in scoring and was 12th in the league in scoring while also being very good defensively. It's too bad we couldn't keep him

#84 F.Michael

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 03:34 PM

I say no to either of them.

Exactly!

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#85 LeftWinger

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 04:24 PM

That would wreck our D. We'd have White, Kronwall, Smith, and Kindl. If Lids came back that would still be a pretty weak corps. Perhaps if we sign 1 big D FA and 1 middle tier D then we could try the trade you proposed.

in the rest of the post you quoted I did mention Suter, of course we'd have to sign Suter and Lidstrom, then trade Quincey.

That would be still:

Kronwall-Suter
White-Lidstrom
Smith- another UFA like you mentioned ($1m-$2M)
Kindl

That's if it took Big E and Quincey to get Perry...Which I think is a pretty good package I believe...

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#86 kipwinger

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Posted 22 May 2012 - 05:39 PM

He has reached 30 goals once in the past five seasons. He's not as dynamic a player as he once was. The "grass is greener" mentality here is what makes people label him a pure goal scorer. Blackhawks fans would not give him that title.


At which point in my post did you mistakenly think I was suggesting that "the grass is greener"? I didn't say we should try to acquire him, I didn't say that I missed having him. I simply said that Perry, Getzlaf, and Lucic do not play the same type of game as Parise, Hossa, or Kovalchuk. I'm not really sure if you're this eager to disagree with someone, or you just didn't read anything I said closely enough, but again, I never suggesting anything about Hossa other than that he played a different game than those others. Obviously he's getting past his prime and doesn't score as much as he used to, but that doesn't change the type of player he is or how he approaches the game. You wouldn't say that Brett Hull wasn't a sniper anymore because his number trailed off at the end of his career, and you won't say it about Stamkos when his number inevitably trail off.

Again, I'm dying to know: if Hossa isn't a goal scorer then what is he? A power forward? A playmaker? A defensive forward?

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

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#87 Johnz96

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 10:27 AM

At which point in my post did you mistakenly think I was suggesting that "the grass is greener"? I didn't say we should try to acquire him, I didn't say that I missed having him. I simply said that Perry, Getzlaf, and Lucic do not play the same type of game as Parise, Hossa, or Kovalchuk. I'm not really sure if you're this eager to disagree with someone, or you just didn't read anything I said closely enough, but again, I never suggesting anything about Hossa other than that he played a different game than those others. Obviously he's getting past his prime and doesn't score as much as he used to, but that doesn't change the type of player he is or how he approaches the game. You wouldn't say that Brett Hull wasn't a sniper anymore because his number trailed off at the end of his career, and you won't say it about Stamkos when his number inevitably trail off.

Again, I'm dying to know: if Hossa isn't a goal scorer then what is he? A power forward? A playmaker? A defensive forward?


He scored more points than Parise with less ice-time and he scored a lot more points than Semin he led the 6th top scoring team in scoring, was 12th in the league in scoring while being great defensively. How can you say he is obviously past his prime?

#88 Shaman

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:05 AM

He scored more points than Parise with less ice-time and he scored a lot more points than Semin he led the 6th top scoring team in scoring, was 12th in the league in scoring while being great defensively. How can you say he is obviously past his prime?

Hes also a lot older, and will cost a lot more than Parise. Iginla is a non-option, hes too old, his cap hit is too high and the returns that the Flames will want back will be more than the Wings can afford. What you want is the opposite of what any good team would want, give up a lot of youth, and cap space for an older rental player. I thank god you're not the GM.

As for Perry, Perry would be a decent pick up, but read what I said about the Flames and double it for return. They will want all our best prospects, picks, and NHL ready talent. No way Anaheim parts with him without asking for a King's ransom. Better to pick him up in a year as a FA than to pay what they would want.

Edited by Shaman464, 24 May 2012 - 11:12 AM.

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#89 kipwinger

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 11:08 AM

Johnz96: I was going to spend all sorts of time explaining to you why Hossa is no longer the 35-40 goal scorer that he used to be, and how that fact says nothing about his general usefulness to his team.

Instead I decided to just give you this "Jump to Conclusions Mat". A meme that I'm going to repeat from now on whenever somebody reads a post of mine and immediately takes it completely out of context and starts throwing a fit.

Posted Image

Edited by kipwinger, 24 May 2012 - 12:02 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#90 Johnz96

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 01:09 PM

Johnz96: I was going to spend all sorts of time explaining to you why Hossa is no longer the 35-40 goal scorer that he used to be, and how that fact says nothing about his general usefulness to his team.

Instead I decided to just give you this "Jump to Conclusions Mat". A meme that I'm going to repeat from now on whenever somebody reads a post of mine and immediately takes it completely out of context and starts throwing a fit.

Posted Image


keep the mat, you need it. I didn't throw a fit.
You said Hossa is obviously past his prime replying to a post that said he isn't the player he used to be. He is as good as ever, the main reason he is scoring less these days than he did before he joined the Wings is because he has played on better teams

#91 kipwinger

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 01:26 PM

keep the mat, you need it. I didn't throw a fit.
You said Hossa is obviously past his prime replying to a post that said he isn't the player he used to be. He is as good as ever, the main reason he is scoring less these days than he did before he joined the Wings is because he has played on better teams


So let me get this straight, you expect a player's numbers to decrease when they get on a better team? So if the played on the Red Wings a guy like Zach Parise would only score about 25 goals a season while if Johan Franzen would score about 40 on a s***ty team? Good call.

Edited by kipwinger, 24 May 2012 - 01:27 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#92 Johnz96

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 01:52 PM

So let me get this straight, you expect a player's numbers to decrease when they get on a better team? So if the played on the Red Wings a guy like Zach Parise would only score about 25 goals a season while if Johan Franzen would score about 40 on a s***ty team? Good call.


Parise's team is still playing hockey.
In some cases playing on a better team will lead to lower production by a player. A perfect example is Lang, he was leading the league in scoring playing for Washington (the worst team in the league at the time), then he was traded to Detroit (the best team in the league at the time) and his scoring pace dropped significantly. He got a lot more ice-time with the Capitals and always with their best players and they didn't play as tight of a team defensive game. When Hossa played for the Thrashers he got more ice-time then with the Pens, Wings, or Hawks always with the top guys (the Thrashers had a great first line of Hossa Savard and Kovalchuk with terrible depth). The Thrashers didn't play as tight of a team defensive game as the teams he played on after.
Kozlov was more productive with the Thrashers than he was with the Wings

#93 kipwinger

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Posted 24 May 2012 - 02:22 PM

ok, so according to that logic Rick Nash would score less for Detroit and Parise would score more if he played Columbus. And you're basing this all on Robert Lang. Gotcha.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#94 Johnz96

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 11:30 AM

ok, so according to that logic Rick Nash would score less for Detroit and Parise would score more if he played Columbus. And you're basing this all on Robert Lang. Gotcha.


I never said anything about Nash he doesn't have linemates as good as Hossa had in Atlanta or Lang in Washington. I said sometimes. In my reply not only did I mention Lang as an example but also Kozlov and Hossa himself, there have been many other examples. Kariya and Selanne going to the powerhouse Avs in 03-04 is a couple of other prime examples (both scoring much more in previous and subsequent years with much weaker teams). Everyone thought Selanne was over the hill and done but here he is almost a decade later still scoring a lot more than he did that year.

By YOUR logic Parise and Semin aren't as "dynamic as they used to be" and "obviously past their prime"

If Detroit gets him Parise probably won't score as much with the Wings, he has great linemates on the Devils, even though Detroit has a more skilled defense, he won't play over 21 mins a game with the Wings

Edited by Johnz96, 25 May 2012 - 03:17 PM.


#95 kipwinger

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 01:56 PM

I never said anything about Nash he doesn't have linemates as good as Hossa, had in Atlanta or Lang in Washington. I said sometimes. In my reply not only did I mention Lang as an example but also Kozlov and Hossa himself, there have been many other examples. Kariya and Selanne going to the powerhouse Avs in 03-04 is a couple of other prime examples (both scoring much more in previous and subsequent years with much weaker teams). Everyone thought Selanne was over the hill and done but here he is almost a decade later still scoring a lot more than he did that year.

By YOUR logic Parise and Semin aren't as "dynamic as they used to be" and "obviously past their prime"

If Detroit gets him Parise probably won't score as much with the Wings, he has great linemates on the Devils, even though Detroit has a more skilled defense, he won't play over 21 mins a game with the Wings


Do me a favor and do a quick check of Hossa's numbers and then get back to me. The guy had 80+ points for four straight seasons with two different teams. He peaked at 100 points in 2006. In the six years since that time he's never broken 80 and has generally been in the 50-60 points range.

It's not like he's having a down year. By his own standard he's had six down years in a row with three different teams. Your assertion that somehow the team is to blame for his decrease in production is absurd.

When Zach Parise plays for three different teams over the course of six years and never reaches his current average then I'll say he's past his prime too. Until then, keep reaching.

Note: The first two 80+ points seasons for Hossa were with the Senators. The first year (2003) they won the President's Trophy and made it to the Eastern Conference Finals. The following year they were the fifth seed in the East. So it's not like he was playing for a s***ty team.

Edited by kipwinger, 25 May 2012 - 10:15 PM.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 


#96 LeftWinger

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:45 PM

Johnz96: I was going to spend all sorts of time explaining to you why Hossa is no longer the 35-40 goal scorer that he used to be, and how that fact says nothing about his general usefulness to his team.

Instead I decided to just give you this "Jump to Conclusions Mat". A meme that I'm going to repeat from now on whenever somebody reads a post of mine and immediately takes it completely out of context and starts throwing a fit.

Posted Image

Hmmmm....something tells me this mat gets well used...

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#97 kipwinger

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Posted 25 May 2012 - 03:57 PM

Hmmmm....something tells me this mat gets well used...


Haha Only by people more interested in being argumentative than respectfully discussing the many nuances of the game we all love. There can't be too many of those around here can there? Ugh. Guilty.

GMRwings:  "Well, in other civilized countries, 16 years old isn't considered underage.  For instance, I believe the age of consent is 16 in Canada.  There's some US states where it's 16 as well.  

 

Get off the high horse.  Not like she was 10."

 

"Some girls are 17 even though they look 25."

 

 






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