kickazz 5,459 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) 4 hours ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said: It's not ridiculous. If you think that managing a team thru the typical cycle of contender to bottom feeder and back again is cool, then ok. You can't stay at the top forever, its true. But there are ways to prevent a full-on drop to the bottom, if you plan ahead. It is possible to stay respectable during a "rebuild". I gave an opinion as to one way to accomplish that. If you want to disagree that my approach wouldn't work, that's fine. But I fail to see how having a strategy to build for the future while at the same time thinking beyond that to avoid a race to the bottom is "ridiculous". And I am surprised that you dont think that trading away your prospects and draft picks doesn't "empty the cupboard" when that's precisely how we got into this mess. Yeah the Red Wings tried this. Where were you between 2012 and 2016? Not on these boards thats fo sho. "Rebuild on the fly"; keep secondary scorers and/or sign them while we had Zetterberg and Datsyuk and had our draft picks like Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco and Sheahan. Signed Brunner. They tried what you suggested and actually failed. Precisely why the GM is now doing another approach which is fully building through the draft. Edited March 7, 2019 by kickazz Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 6 minutes ago, kickazz said: Yeah the Red Wings tried this. Where were you between 2012 and 2016? Not on these boards thats fo sho. "Rebuild on the fly"; keep secondary scorers and/or sign them while we had Zetterberg and Datsyuk and had our draft picks like Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco and Sheahan. Signed Brunner. They tried what you suggested and actually failed. Precisely why the GM is now doing another approach which is fully building through the draft. We made the playoffs all of those years. You really are dense. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, kickazz said: Yeah the Red Wings tried this. Where were you between 2012 and 2016? Not on these boards thats fo sho. "Rebuild on the fly"; keep secondary scorers and/or sign them while we had Zetterberg and Datsyuk and had our draft picks like Nyquist, Tatar, Jurco and Sheahan. Signed Brunner. They tried what you suggested and actually failed. Precisely why the GM is now doing another approach which is fully building through the draft. They also traded away prospects and picks to bring in secondary players to maintain the streak. That's exactly what I am talking about. If they hadn't made those trades they may not have made the playoffs, but they still would have been respectable and kept those assets they traded away. The "Streak" Wings are NOT what I am referring to. They would have been able to stay near the middle of the standings while being able to keep and develop their picks. Guys like Larkin, Mantha, and Rass are all guys they were able to draft while still being mediocre. You dont have to drop to the level of a lottery team to rebuild. If you do it right, you never have to be a bottom feeder. Edited March 7, 2019 by Neomaxizoomdweebie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 23 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said: They also traded away prospects and picks to bring in secondary players to maintain the streak. That's exactly what I am talking about. If they hadn't made those trades they may not have made the playoffs, but they still would have been respectable and kept those assets they traded away. The "Streak" Wings are NOT what I am referring to. They would have been able to stay near the middle of the standings while being able to keep and develop their picks. Guys like Larkin, Mantha, and Rass are all guys they were able to draft while still being mediocre. You dont have to drop to the level of a lottery team to rebuild. If you do it right, you never have to be a bottom feeder. Name a team in the modern NHL that has successfully rebuilt without bottoming out. It's easy enough to say that it can be done, but until a team actually pulls it off, I think hitting the bottom is necessary. The Wings got lucky once in the pre-cap era, they tried it again in the post-cap era and failed. Whether by design or not, they're doing it right this time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Neomaxizoomdweebie 3,083 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, krsmith17 said: Name a team in the modern NHL that has successfully rebuilt without bottoming out. It's easy enough to say that it can be done, but until a team actually pulls it off, I think hitting the bottom is necessary. The Wings got lucky once in the pre-cap era, they tried it again in the post-cap era and failed. Whether by design or not, they're doing it right this time. San Jose Sharks Edited March 7, 2019 by Neomaxizoomdweebie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
krsmith17 7,191 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, Neomaxizoomdweebie said: San Jose Sharks Maybe, if you consider a "successful rebuild", never winning a Cup... The Sharks have never been "on top" before or after not bottoming out... They also have two top 10 (lottery) picks that they've drafted, to go along with the two top 5 picks they've traded for. I think the Wings could get back to the playoffs with the players currently in the system. Maybe they could even get to the Conference / Cup Final if everything went right. But I wouldn't bet on them winning another Cup without adding another couple elite players (top 10 picks). That's just my opinion though... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 2 hours ago, krsmith17 said: Name a team in the modern NHL that has successfully rebuilt without bottoming out. It's easy enough to say that it can be done, but until a team actually pulls it off, I think hitting the bottom is necessary. The Wings got lucky once in the pre-cap era, they tried it again in the post-cap era and failed. Whether by design or not, they're doing it right this time. The Ducks, the Bruins, the Blues, the Preds, the Wild The Rangers have consistently reloaded like every year until now Yzerman pretty much rebuilt Tampa without bottoming out I totally support bottoming out and trading Nyquist, but you can certainly rebuild/retool a team without full on tanking Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kickazz 5,459 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 54 minutes ago, krsmith17 said: Maybe, if you consider a "successful rebuild", never winning a Cup... The Sharks have never been "on top" before or after not bottoming out... They also have two top 10 (lottery) picks that they've drafted, to go along with the two top 5 picks they've traded for. I think the Wings could get back to the playoffs with the players currently in the system. Maybe they could even get to the Conference / Cup Final if everything went right. But I wouldn't bet on them winning another Cup without adding another couple elite players (top 10 picks). That's just my opinion though... No way dude. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, ChristopherReevesLegs said: The Ducks, the Bruins, the Blues, the Preds, the Wild The Rangers have consistently reloaded like every year until now Yzerman pretty much rebuilt Tampa without bottoming out I totally support bottoming out and trading Nyquist, but you can certainly rebuild/retool a team without full on tanking I dunno that we can really count Tampa, as their success under Yzerman is bult largely on Stamkos & Hedman and the Bolts were able to draft those two because they finished 30th and 29th in 2008 and 2009, respectively. Could probably poke holes in the other teams as well. I agree that, in theory, an organization should be able to go a long time without bottom out, assuming they consistently make smart ("smart") choices and get lucky here and there. But if we're talking about the Wings specifically...ehhh. I suppose Holland could've done any number of things differently and could've delayed this rebuild, but, absent any incredible luck in the draft and/or the UFA market, we were always going to end up in this situation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Dabura said: I dunno that we can really count Tampa, as their success under Yzerman is bult largely on Stamkos & Hedman and the Bolts were able to draft those two because they finished 30th and 29th in 2008 and 2009, respectively. Could probably poke holes in the other teams as well. I agree that, in theory, an organization should be able to go a long time without bottom out, assuming they consistently make smart ("smart") choices and get lucky here and there. But if we're talking about the Wings specifically...ehhh. I suppose Holland could've done any number of things differently and could've delayed this rebuild, but, absent any incredible luck in the draft and/or the UFA market, we were always going to end up in this situation. First paragraph: Certainly can poke holes in any of those teams. Pretty much every team has been up and down besides ours truly for the last 20 years. Yzerman successfully transitioned from Lecavalier and St. Louis to their current squad. His drafting has been phenomenal for a team not tanking. We need to bottom out. The contracts on our books are mental. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said: Yzerman successfully transitioned from Lecavalier and St. Louis to their current squad. His drafting has been phenomenal for a team not tanking. I'm just saying he's been able to avoid tanking largely because the team was basically in the gutter when he took over. They'd already gone through what we're starting to go through now and they were handsomely rewarded for it. And now that we're in the same spot, Yzerman wants in on this action. The opportunist hack fraud. But yeah, we're on the same page overall. We suck and we need to suck for a little while. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 1 minute ago, Dabura said: I'm just saying he's been able to avoid tanking largely because the team was basically in the gutter when he took over. They'd already gone through what we're starting to go through now and they were handsomely rewarded for it. And now that we're in the same spot, Yzerman wants in on this action. The opportunist hack fraud. But yeah, we're on the same page overall. We suck and we need to suck for a little while. I know you're being tongue in cheek, but IMO the greats really do this. Bowman bounced around, Babcock saw opportunity in Toronto... smart play to always put yourself in a position to succeed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dabura 12,207 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 Just now, ChristopherReevesLegs said: I know you're being tongue in cheek, but IMO the greats really do this. Bowman bounced around, Babcock saw opportunity in Toronto... smart play to always put yourself in a position to succeed. Definitely. And, in Yzerman's defense, he wanted to stay in the Wings organization but Holland told him he had to go on a vision quest or something. And so here we are. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChristopherReevesLegs 7,022 Report post Posted March 7, 2019 Just now, Dabura said: Definitely. And, in Yzerman's defense, he wanted to stay in the Wings organization but Holland told him he had to go on a vision quest or something. And so here we are. "Go to Florida. Find the clockwork elves" 1 Dabura reacted to this Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
