3/10 Florida, Vol. 2 GDT - Red Wings @ Panthers - 5:00 PM ET

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

3 hours ago, Dabura said:

Everyone keeps pointing to our bad contracts. Are they what's holding us back? Does it really matter that we have bad contracts on the books when we don't have the pieces needed to open up a Cup window (i.e. elite young talent)?

Ericsson has a year left. Green has a year left. Kronwall has a year left (assuming he doesn't retire in the offseason). Daley has a year left. DeKeyser's actually a pretty decent shutdown defenseman when he's healthy.

I'd be more worried about Helm and Nielsen and Abdelkader and [insert anyone else] if I actually felt like they were holding us back from being a really competitive team. But I don't think that. I think what's really holding us back is a lack of high-end talent, mostly of the young, cost-controlled variety. How do we get that kind of talent? By sucking and stockpiling draft picks. Which is what we're doing. And is what Yzerman would be doing.

Filip Larsson and Keith Petruzzelli are the headliners.

Hronek, Cholowski, Jared McIsaac, Gustav Lindstrom.

Hronek's quietly having a really good rookie season. Cholowski showed glimpses of top-pairing potential this season. McIsaac's been a revelation in the QMJHL this season. Lindstrom's an under-the-radar two-way workhorse.

Bowen Byram is the consensus top defenseman in this year's draft class and there's a good chance he's going to be available when we make our first pick.

The drafting has been fine for where we've drafted. And we've only had two tank drafts. Rome wasn't built in a day.

This team's entire future is not banking on this upcoming draft and this upcoming UFA class. Realistically, it'll be at least one more year of pain and stockpiling picks before we have all the pieces we need.

Yes, the bad contracts matter.  Those are contracts that could have gone to more deserving players.  Maybe that's harping on the past, but the past is relevant when looking at how it got this way.  Who gave out these contracts?  The guy who's the current GM. That's a little alarming.  If this team's salary would be at the level of their talent the last three seasons, they'd be near the bottom of the league in salary.  Ericsson has most certainly been holding the team back.  Nielsen and Abdelkader unfortunately don't have a year left.  I didn't mention Helm or Daley.  Their contracts aren't as bad as the above players.       

Regarding the prospects you mentioned, this forum has a habit of overhyping the prospects the Wings have in their system.  I'll wait and see if these guys turn into something special at the NHL level or if they'll be the next Petr Mrazek or Brendan Smith.  

[Dabura 12,207]

1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Yes, the bad contracts matter.  Those are contracts that could have gone to more deserving players.

Name these players. I want a list of all the good players we surely would've signed or traded for were it not for the contracts in question. I also want a list of all the good RFAs we've been forced to lose to waivers and trades as a direct result of the contracts in question.

1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Maybe that's harping on the past, but the past is relevant when looking at how it got this way.

Relevant, maybe. But is it actually damning? Does it actually matter?

1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Who gave out these contracts?  The guy who's the current GM. That's a little alarming.

Is it alarming? I submit it's only "alarming" to people who want to be "alarmed" by Holland's actions.

1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

If this team's salary would be at the level of their talent the last three seasons, they'd be near the bottom of the league in salary.

Does it matter? You're saying things as if it's self-evidently true that they're deeply problematic. I'm saying they're not deeply problematic.

We're a bad team with a high payroll. Big whoop. Some old guys will be coming off the books over the next couple of years and we'll also be adding some great ELC kids and we'll be seeing the current young leaders maturing. The Wings aren't in cap hell.

Wasn't too long ago that Datsyuk put us in a genuinely bad spot with the cap. Holland traded Datsyuk's contract and the 16th overall pick to Arizona in exchange for the picks he used to get Cholowski and Hronek. If Holland feels he has to do something drastic and out-of-character, he'll do it.

1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Ericsson has most certainly been holding the team back.

Has he? Or is he a dime-a-dozen bottom-four stay-at-home defenseman (the kind every team has) who's been forced to play up in the lineup because of a lack of high-end talent?

1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Nielsen and Abdelkader unfortunately don't have a year left.

We can buy out one or both of them. I believe we haven't done so because there isn't a pressing need to do so. We're not sitting here staring at a Cup-worthy roster and saying, "Damn, if only we had a bit more cap space, then we could definitely add Erik Karlsson and we'd be set."

We need an Aleksander Barkov. We need an Aaron Ekblad. The only way to get those players is by drafting them. So we wait. And we run out the clock on some contracts. And we see where we are at the end of every draft.

The hope is that we get an instant gamechanger in the upcoming draft, specifically Hughes or Kakko. Though, even if we do, we're still probably at least a year away from getting back into the playoffs. That's just the nature of the beast. It's how rebuilds work.

1 hour ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Regarding the prospects you mentioned, this forum has a habit of overhyping the prospects the Wings have in their system.  I'll wait and see if these guys turn into something special at the NHL level or if they'll be the next Petr Mrazek or Brendan Smith.  

I would say you're moving the goalposts (you asked what promising prospects we have in the system, I named some), but I suspect you were always going to say, "Yeah, well, whatever. We'll see."

Edited March 12, 2019 by Dabura

[Dabura 12,207]

For the record, I'd love to see Yzerman take over. And I do get why people are fed up with Holland. And I'm not saying people are necessarily "wrong" for wanting a big change. I just think the Holland hate is a bit much (and I say that as someone who has hated pretty hard on the man in the past), as is the lusting after GM Yzerman.

[kipwinger 8,521]

Yeah, I'm not sure I agree with the "we're in cap hell" narrative either.  The last difference maker UFA that we tried to get and didn't was Stamkos, and we actually HAD enough cap space to get him, he just didn't want to come here.  So I'm not sure how those bad contracts have hurt us actually. 

[GMRwings1983 8,794]

1 hour ago, Dabura said:

Name these players. I want a list of all the good players we surely would've signed or traded for were it not for the contracts in question. I also want a list of all the good RFAs we've been forced to lose to waivers and trades as a direct result of the contracts in question.

Relevant, maybe. But is it actually damning? Does it actually matter?

Is it alarming? I submit it's only "alarming" to people who want to be "alarmed" by Holland's actions.

Does it matter? You're saying things as if it's self-evidently true that they're deeply problematic. I'm saying they're not deeply problematic.

We're a bad team with a high payroll. Big whoop. Some old guys will be coming off the books over the next couple of years and we'll also be adding some great ELC kids and we'll be seeing the current young leaders maturing. The Wings aren't in cap hell.

Wasn't too long ago that Datsyuk put us in a genuinely bad spot with the cap. Holland traded Datsyuk's contract and the 16th overall pick to Arizona in exchange for the picks he used to get Cholowski and Hronek. If Holland feels he has to do something drastic and out-of-character, he'll do it.

Has he? Or is he a dime-a-dozen bottom-four stay-at-home defenseman (the kind every team has) who's been forced to play up in the lineup because of a lack of high-end talent?

We can buy out one or both of them. I believe we haven't done so because there isn't a pressing need to do so. We're not sitting here staring at a Cup-worthy roster and saying, "Damn, if only we had a bit more cap space, then we could definitely add Erik Karlsson and we'd be set."

We need an Aleksander Barkov. We need an Aaron Ekblad. The only way to get those players is by drafting them. So we wait. And we run out the clock on some contracts. And we see where we are at the end of every draft.

The hope is that we get an instant gamechanger in the upcoming draft, specifically Hughes or Kakko. Though, even if we do, we're still probably at least a year away from getting back into the playoffs. That's just the nature of the beast. It's how rebuilds work.

I would say you're moving the goalposts (you asked what promising prospects we have in the system, I named some), but I suspect you were always going to say, "Yeah, well, whatever. We'll see."

Oh come on Dabura.  You're telling me that our limited cap space has not had any effect on free agency the last several seasons?  None?  How believable is that?  Neither you nor I tap Holland's phones or his mind, but it's safe to assume the salary cap situation has had some effect on his plans and which players we could pursue.    

Yes, Ericsson has been holding the team back.  So have Abdelkader, DeKeyser, Nielsen, and Helm.  That's a combined $22.6 million in cap space.  You can't think of five better players that could combine to that amount of money? 

Ironically, Florida never makes the playoffs with Barkov and Ekblad.  The NHL has enough parity where you can make the playoffs with good coaching, goaltending, and team play.  We have none of those.    

We seem to agree the veterans haven't been that good.  You say it's not a big deal because they're on their way out.  While the latter part of that statement is true, I'm saying things wouldn't be as bad now as they are, had those veterans not in actuality been average players that were overpaid by their GM. 

I agree they need a big draft and the same in next year's draft.    

 

[Dabura 12,207]

2 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Oh come on Dabura.  You're telling me that our limited cap space has not had any effect on free agency the last several seasons?  None?  How believable is that?  Neither you nor I tap Holland's phones or his mind, but it's safe to assume the salary cap situation has had some effect on his plans and which players we could pursue.

Has it cost us a top target? Did we lose the Suter-Parise sweepstakes because we didn't have enough cap space? Did we lose the Stamkos sweepstakes because we didn't have enough cap space? Would we have had a shot at Tavares?

If the most damning thing we can say about the bad contracts is that the money could've been spent on different players...that's not exactly a knockout blow to Holland's credibility. "Yo! Holland! You shoulda signed Matt Niskanen and Eric Staal! Idiot!" I mean, sure. Maybe he should've. But would it have really mattered?

Quote

Yes, Ericsson has been holding the team back.  So have Abdelkader, DeKeyser, Nielsen, and Helm.  That's a combined $22.6 million in cap space.  You can't think of five better players that could combine to that amount of money?

I'm busting your balls on this because all I hear from Wings fans these days is that Holland is a colossal failure who's brought shame upon this once-great franchise and that Yzerman is the one who must set things right. And so I'm pushing you for specifics, for things that will make my blood boil and make me hate Ken Holland. And what I seem to be getting from you is "Coulda spent that money on better players."

I don't even disagree! The money absolutely could've been spent on better players. I just think there's a disconnect between the "Holland must go!" fervor and the crimes he stands accused of committing, and I think it's all a bit comical.

2 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

Ironically, Florida never makes the playoffs with Barkov and Ekblad.

The point is that we don't have a foundation. We have Larkin, and that's a start, but it's not nearly enough.

2 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

The NHL has enough parity where you can make the playoffs with good coaching, goaltending, and team play.  We have none of those.

The Wings are a victim of parity; in today's league you have to spend time at the bottom. There's no way around it. If you don't have a core group of outstanding young players, you're a dead franchise walking. That's the dark heart of parity.

2 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

We seem to agree the veterans haven't been that good.  You say it's not a big deal because they're on their way out.  While the latter part of that statement is true, I'm saying things wouldn't be as bad now as they are, had those veterans not in actuality been average players that were overpaid by their GM.

I say it's not a big deal because the Wings were always going to end up in this hole. It was an inevitability.

I absolutely buy that Holland could've handled the post-Lidstrom limbo era better than he did. But, in the absence of young superstar talent (replacements for Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Lidstrom), it ultimately didn't really matter what he did. The Cup window pretty much closed when Lidstrom left and the playoff streak ended when Datsyuk left, and now we're finally where parity dictates we must be: the basement.

Now Holland has a chance to do something the "Playoffs or bust" mandate didn't allow him to do: build a contender "the right way." Get lots of draft picks, get lots of young talent, assemble a new core. He seems to have embraced the rebuild and, to me, he's done a pretty good with it thus far. Like I've said, I don't think Yzerman would be doing things much differently. I'd love to see Yzerman take over, but I'd hate to see the fans turn on him when he doesn't immediately produce a Stamkos and a Hedman and a Kucherov from a magic hat.

2 hours ago, GMRwings1983 said:

I agree they need a big draft and the same in next year's draft.   

Do they? Does it really matter?

(I kid, I kid.)

Edited March 12, 2019 by Dabura