Wayne Gretzky vs. Bobby Orr

[theman19 47]

orr was the best player

the man could kill penalties by skating in circles, defining dominance

what did wayne do that could even compare???

Gretzky is very over rated, at the time he was used to sell the game, I think too many people believe the hype

you forget the guy never won a cup without that allstar edmonton team

total crap

and orr could "only" muster up 2 cups with a very stellar Bruins team

Gretzky is not only not overrated, He's in the record book 60 times, he owns almost every forward record in existance including most overtime game winning playoff goals, how is that a product of his team? He had 19, that means he did all throughout his career.

What could wayne do that bobby orr didn't? oh i don't know,...get more assist than anyone else has points,....outscore his nearest competator by hundereds on the all time list, WIN 8 CONSECUTIVE HART TROPHIES

Too many people believed the hype? what are you a bruins fan? use logic,..look at the stats you can't take that away from the man,...ever.

ok .. he did one thing away from the oilers.. but if he was so "great" i think he could have had a steady carrer with points, yet he had a ton at first an dliek burned out or somethign at the end. he was a pure 80s goal scorer. hull was the 90s goal scorer along wiht jagr. but to me gretz is a media hype that workeed in favor of the NHL. ya his numbers are impressive but i mean probert scored 30 goals and was a all star during the 80s so what does that tell ya about that period. i mean ya he was good but not good (probert).. to me the 80s wwas when forwards prgressed and goalies were stuck in the 20s lol very inflated. i forget where i say it but hulls 86 goals would be the equivalent to over a hundred had he done it the year gretz scored 90..

that might be the dumbest thing i've read on these boards,....know who else had ridiculous goal scoring season in the 80s?

steve yzerman,....tell some people on here that he did it because it was a watered down league and not because he was insanely talented. Go ahead, lets hear it.

Mario? huge season in 88 too, productive of the times right?

no good goalies back then in the 80's i mean,..what with grant fhur, andy moog, PATRICK ROY, billy smith, etc. etc.

no good Defensemen either,..Ray borque, paul coffey, chelly in his prime,

use your head, the 80's we're no more watered down than any other era in history, at least there wasn't a california seals team in 83 when gretz started to tear things up.

[Louisville 112]

Riding one race competitively every year hardly constitutes dominating a sport.

Yeah OKAAAAY

Seven consecutive victories in the world hardest cycling race is not dominating a sport? What do you think cyclists do all year after the Tour de France? Sit around and eat Cheetos?

Not only that but in 1996 Lance underwent brain and testicular surgery, and extensive chemotherapy to treat the testicular cancer that had metastasized to his brain and lungs. But he still game back and trained harder than ever to win again.

Please place the crack pipe down before you decide to post, thanks.

[metalwinger_13 0]

ya Orr only won 2 cups but look at who else was winning cups in teh 70s.. oh that was the great 70's montreal canadiens with bowman as coach. hmm mayb ethats why orr only one 2 cups. grets had a team full of great players atleast on the frst 2 maybe 3 lines, kurri, messier, esa tikkean (sp), anderson, etc. his production dropped off after he left oiler town. and never say those numbers again yet went the other way and pretty much became a passer instead of goal scorer. but i stil lthink orr and howe were better.. bring me better stats then inflated 80s number that padded the rest of gretz career. and im not talking MVPs, harts etc. cause during the 80s they just handed it to him. for instance many thought yzerman shoudl have won one toward the end before he won eventually won it. so bring me proof other then stats why gretz was so "great" he never revolutionized his postion(orr) or dominated it for as long as howe. so those two (howe and orr) are better then gretz

steve yzerman,....tell some people on here that he did it because it was a watered down league and not because he was insanely talented. Go ahead, lets hear it.

Mario? huge season in 88 too, productive of the times right?

no good goalies back then in the 80's i mean,..what with grant fhur, andy moog, PATRICK ROY, billy smith, etc. etc.

no good Defensemen either,..Ray borque, paul coffey, chelly in his prime,

use your head, the 80's we're no more watered down than any other era in history, at least there wasn't a california seals team in 83 when gretz started to tear things up.

yes they both did this toward the end of the 80s when goals were starting to dry up so to say.. gretz did al lhis in teh begining when goalies blew nuts except for a few here and there that were steady and could stop a shot. im not discounting them but they also did it with less talent aroudn them. and both stevie and mario could literally but a team on there back and carry them.. give me a instance where gretz has done that....

Edited March 19, 2007 by metalwinger_13

[theman19 47]

ya Orr only won 2 cups but look at who else was winning cups in teh 70s.. oh that was the great 70's montreal canadiens with bowman as coach. hmm mayb ethats why orr only one 2 cups. grets had a team full of great players atleast on the frst 2 maybe 3 lines, kurri, messier, esa tikkean (sp), anderson, etc. his production dropped off after he left oiler town. and never say those numbers again yet went the other way and pretty much became a passer instead of goal scorer. but i stil lthink orr and howe were better.. bring me better stats then inflated 80s number that padded the rest of gretz career. and im not talking MVPs, harts etc. cause during the 80s they just handed it to him. for instance many thought yzerman shoudl have won one toward the end before he won eventually won it. so bring me proof other then stats why gretz was so "great" he never revolutionized his postion(orr) or dominated it for as long as howe. so those two (howe and orr) are better then gretz

yes they both did this toward the end of the 80s when goals were starting to dry up so to say.. gretz did al lhis in teh begining when goalies blew nuts except for a few here and there that were steady and could stop a shot. im not discounting them but they also did it with less talent aroudn them. and both stevie and mario could literally but a team on there back and carry them.. give me a instance where gretz has done that....

Gah i'm sick of hearing how mario carried a team on his back,...are you kidding me? look at the roster for the 91 and 92 pens, it's an allstar team just like any other. Francis, recchi, coffey, denis f'n potvin?

and to answer your question 93 kings, No they didn't win the cup, the ran into patrick roy as his absoulte zenith as a goalie, but he was that team that year. Scored the O.T. winner in game seven against the maple leafs FROM BEHIND THE MAPLE LEAF NET. where's macattack at? come tell this fool how Gretzky carried the kings past the leafs in 93'

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

"Stop counting the years when he was at the peak of his game" is basically what you're saying, which is ridiculous.

so bring me proof other then stats why gretz was so "great"

Why? His stats are more than good enough to prove his greatness.

[Lou_Siffer 1]

If you ever wondered why some people believe Bobby Orr, and not Wayne Gretzky, is the greatest NHL player of all time, read the new book titled, "Searching for Bobby Orr."

"Searching for Bobby Orr"??? Well the author certainly gets no pts for originality!

[metalwinger_13 0]

ok so your tired hearing about mario and stevie carryign there teams on tehre back... well i mean the tiems they have.. theyve had serious injury. mario had a bad back where he couldnt even lace up his own skates and stevie had the knee problem we all know about that became a major problem in 02. when has gretz doen something similar besides oen round of the playoffs which has a controversy around a missed penalty commited by gretz?

im not saying forget about his early stats but im rather saying those numbers are rather inflated compared to late 80s and 90s numbers due to the skil level of the goalies. i understand u think what gretz di was great with the goals etc ,, yet it is but also he had a great cast to set him up and with the ability to finish on there chances. id be more inpressed with grets if he did it on a team with lesser tallent and over a longer tiem period, rather then what 81-88?? howe was consistant for what 20 some years. but its al a matter of opinion. and i dont liek how 99 was retired league wide when a strong case can be made for 4 (orr), 9 (howe, hull, richard), 1 (sawchuck), but thats another argument. all im saying is gretz was nothing without a highly talented team around him. players such and stevie, and mario carried there teams to the glory land from there rookie year.

[Louisville 112]

"Searching for Bobby Orr"??? Well the author certainly gets no pts for originality!

Q: Explain the title, "Searching For Bobby Orr."

A: For writers, he has been elusive. He fiercely guarded his privacy, even during his playing days. Where someone like Gretzky is an open book in terms of his family and background, Orr has always closed those doors. Even for guys who played with him and shared the Bruins' locker room, he was a bit of an enigma. So, there's a quest involved. I don't claim to have answered all of the questions, to have "found" him completely. That's why I like the open-ended aspect of the title.

Sounds pretty original to me.

[BlueMonk 102]

Q: Explain the title, "Searching For Bobby Orr."

A: For writers, he has been elusive. He fiercely guarded his privacy, even during his playing days. Where someone like Gretzky is an open book in terms of his family and background, Orr has always closed those doors. Even for guys who played with him and shared the Bruins' locker room, he was a bit of an enigma. So, there's a quest involved. I don't claim to have answered all of the questions, to have "found" him completely. That's why I like the open-ended aspect of the title.

Sounds pretty original to me.

He's talking about this:

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

when has gretz doen something similar

What you're saying is he's not as good as those guys because those guys played through a serious injury. Let be the first to tell you: no player wants an injury. That's no reason to look down on Wayne because he never played with debilitating knee/back problems.

And the 1993 Kings are pretty much as good as you're gonna find of a player hiking a team on his back and taking them to the Finals.

im not saying forget about his early stats but im rather saying those numbers are rather inflated compared to late 80s and 90s numbers due to the skil level of the goalies.

Well, unless you brought a time machine with you, all we have are those very same numbers you seem to dislike so much.

Here. Shave a thousand points even off his career numbers. Still second all-time.

players such and stevie, and mario carried there teams to the glory land from there rookie year.

Oh, is it that you think the teams that Steve and Mario won their Cups on lacked talent?

[Louisville 112]

He's talking about this:

I see...stickin it with the pop culture refrence. FACE!

[bogeygolfer 4]

total crap

and orr could "only" muster up 2 cups with a very stellar Bruins team

Gretzky is not only not overrated, He's in the record book 60 times, he owns almost every forward record in existance including most overtime game winning playoff goals, how is that a product of his team? He had 19, that means he did all throughout his career.

What could wayne do that bobby orr didn't? oh i don't know,...get more assist than anyone else has points,....outscore his nearest competator by hundereds on the all time list, WIN 8 CONSECUTIVE HART TROPHIES

Too many people believed the hype? what are you a bruins fan? use logic,..look at the stats you can't take that away from the man,...ever.

that might be the dumbest thing i've read on these boards,....know who else had ridiculous goal scoring season in the 80s?

steve yzerman,....tell some people on here that he did it because it was a watered down league and not because he was insanely talented. Go ahead, lets hear it.

Mario? huge season in 88 too, productive of the times right?

no good goalies back then in the 80's i mean,..what with grant fhur, andy moog, PATRICK ROY, billy smith, etc. etc.

no good Defensemen either,..Ray borque, paul coffey, chelly in his prime,

use your head, the 80's we're no more watered down than any other era in history, at least there wasn't a california seals team in 83 when gretz started to tear things up.

you're a tool.

Look at the stats? That's your arguement??...the stats

1st one player is a defencemen the other a centre, not to mention they didn't play in the same era, there stats cannot be compared

2nd there is more to hockey than points, the reason this is DEBATED not just looked up in some stat book

Edited March 20, 2007 by bogeygolfer

[metalwinger_13 0]

im not saying tehy lacked talent im saying they carried there teams there as building blocks. and you keep avoidin ghow gretz scored all these points on staked teams that had a body guard and other wingers and center who could finish and set him up. then you look at when mario and stevie were scoring there goals they were doin git on one line teams pretty much.

im not looking down on him for it im just saying to me for him to be great, something that shoul dhis commitment to play through injust and still produce and carry a team would help me call him great thats all

ill admit i didnt see gretz platy during his "glory" years, but even as he was at the end of the road he was just a normal player to me, only one with a past to him that help bring fans in . but overall he was nothign special. he would have lik ei said before if he was constistant with his scoring numbers, and maybe doing this with lesser talent, much like mario and stevie early in there careers. but we can argue all day bout this.i just feel howe and orr were far superior talents then gretz. ya the stats may or may not support that but from what they did to the game is what im looking at. when one revolutionized a postion (orr) and the other is referred to the hockey community as "mr. hockey", you cant argue there greatness along with sawchuk, and others.

QUOTE(theman19 @ March 19, 2007 - 07:02PM)

total crap

and orr could "only" muster up 2 cups with a very stellar Bruins team

Gretzky is not only not overrated, He's in the record book 60 times, he owns almost every forward record in existance including most overtime game winning playoff goals, how is that a product of his team? He had 19, that means he did all throughout his career.

What could wayne do that bobby orr didn't? oh i don't know,...get more assist than anyone else has points,....outscore his nearest competator by hundereds on the all time list, WIN 8 CONSECUTIVE HART TROPHIES

Too many people believed the hype? what are you a bruins fan? use logic,..look at the stats you can't take that away from the man,...ever.

that might be the dumbest thing i've read on these boards,....know who else had ridiculous goal scoring season in the 80s?

steve yzerman,....tell some people on here that he did it because it was a watered down league and not because he was insanely talented. Go ahead, lets hear it.

Mario? huge season in 88 too, productive of the times right?

no good goalies back then in the 80's i mean,..what with grant fhur, andy moog, PATRICK ROY, billy smith, etc. etc.

no good Defensemen either,..Ray borque, paul coffey, chelly in his prime,

use your head, the 80's we're no more watered down than any other era in history, at least there wasn't a california seals team in 83 when gretz started to tear things up.

you're a tool.

Look at the stats? That's your arguement??...the stats

1st one player is a defencemen the other a centre, not to mention they didn't play in the same era, there stats cannot be compared

2nd there is more to hockey than points, the reason this is DEBATED not just looked up in some stat book

[theman19 47]

you're a tool.

Look at the stats? That's your arguement??...the stats

1st one player is a defencemen the other a centre, not to mention they didn't play in the same era, there stats cannot be compared

2nd there is more to hockey than points, the reason this is DEBATED not just looked up in some stat book

A, i'm not a tool, i'm just not a wayne gretzky hater like some of you seem to be.

B, There stats can totally be compared regardless of what era they played in, it was 10 years difference, nothing like comparing cylone talyor (who averaged a hat trick a game not that you'd know that, since you know zero about hockey history) to gretzky. Orr a force on the ice, yes, orr changed the game, yes, orr was the greatest defencemen of all time, absoultly, Orr was not the greatest player of all time.

C, the stats are the only argument i need, not because he's on top, but because he's on top by almost a thousand points,...DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT MORON,....he's the greatest offensive player in the history of the national hockey league by more than 500 points. He has more assists than the number two guy has points,.....it's not illogical, what's illogical is how some of you idiotic people who probably never even saw the guy play in his prime take away from his ungodly abilities.

D, there's always more than just stats, but at the end of the day, you can't totally ignore them either. If that was the case, i'd still take howe over both of them.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

im not saying tehy lacked talent im saying they carried there teams there as building blocks.

I agree insofar that Steve and Mario were more important to their team's success than Wayne, but that's a nothing big. There's no Oilers dynasty without Wayne--we'd be talking about the Canadiens or Flames right now instead.

and you keep avoidin ghow gretz scored all these points on staked teams that had a body guard and other wingers and center who could finish and set him up. then you look at when mario and stevie were scoring there goals they were doin git on one line teams pretty much.

If you ask me, it's the age old argument: do you score more rolling lines with great linemates or being the top dog and being out there constantly. In any event, you certainly don't outscore everyone so totally unless you've got some great ability.

ya the stats may or may not support that but from what they did to the game is what im looking at. when one revolutionized a postion (orr) and the other is referred to the hockey community as "mr. hockey", you cant argue there greatness along with sawchuk, and others.

I don't much care for arguing this particular point; it was your dismissal of Gretzky (post Oilers, Suter hit) that sort of irked me.

[bogeygolfer 4]

A, i'm not a tool, i'm just not a wayne gretzky hater like some of you seem to be.

B, There stats can totally be compared regardless of what era they played in, it was 10 years difference, nothing like comparing cylone talyor (who averaged a hat trick a game not that you'd know that, since you know zero about hockey history) to gretzky. Orr a force on the ice, yes, orr changed the game, yes, orr was the greatest defencemen of all time, absoultly, Orr was not the greatest player of all time.

C, the stats are the only argument i need, not because he's on top, but because he's on top by almost a thousand points,...DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT MORON,....he's the greatest offensive player in the history of the national hockey league by more than 500 points. He has more assists than the number two guy has points,.....it's not illogical, what's illogical is how some of you idiotic people who probably never even saw the guy play in his prime take away from his ungodly abilities.

D, there's always more than just stats, but at the end of the day, you can't totally ignore them either. If that was the case, i'd still take howe over both of them.

Where debating who is the greatest "all-round player", not the man with the most points

the most valuable players in the NHL are and have allways been good defencemen-->orr,

Like I said before you're a tool for using stats to compare a Defencemen and a Centre

Let me also add you need to calm down

Edited March 20, 2007 by bogeygolfer

[HomeNugget 2]

im not saying tehy lacked talent im saying they carried there teams there as building blocks. and you keep avoidin ghow gretz scored all these points on staked teams that had a body guard and other wingers and center who could finish and set him up. then you look at when mario and stevie were scoring there goals they were doin git on one line teams pretty much.

im not looking down on him for it im just saying to me for him to be great, something that shoul dhis commitment to play through injust and still produce and carry a team would help me call him great thats all

ill admit i didnt see gretz platy during his "glory" years, but even as he was at the end of the road he was just a normal player to me, only one with a past to him that help bring fans in . but overall he was nothign special. he would have lik ei said before if he was constistant with his scoring numbers, and maybe doing this with lesser talent, much like mario and stevie early in there careers. but we can argue all day bout this.i just feel howe and orr were far superior talents then gretz. ya the stats may or may not support that but from what they did to the game is what im looking at. when one revolutionized a postion (orr) and the other is referred to the hockey community as "mr. hockey", you cant argue there greatness along with sawchuk, and others.

i think orr was better than gretzky, but to say he was nothing special is completely retarded. i'm going to let it slide though because judging by the way you type you are obviously drunk out of your skull.

and mario and stevie both contributed a lot to their cup runs but their teams didn't exactly suck without them.

[theman19 47]

ya the stats may or may not support that but from what they did to the game is what im looking at. when one revolutionized a postion (orr) and the other is referred to the hockey community as "mr. hockey", you cant argue there greatness along with sawchuk, and others.

you are aware that wayne's nickname when he broke howe's record was "the greatest one right"? If you are, that totally throws out your entire argument. and if you wanna talk about revolutionizing a position lets talk about a bean pole of a player who didn't excell at any particular aspect of the game, but played the game better than anyone in history using one tool that gave him all those points, all those harts, those cups too...His brain, Gretzky wasn't the fastest, wasn't the best skater, hardest shot, damn sure wasn't the best defensively, he was just the smartest.

Look i'm finished here, this argument is pointless, you're not goign to relent to reason, i'm not going to relent to lack of it. i've said what i needed too, have fun.

Where debating who is the greatest "all-round player", not the man with the most points

the most valuable players in the NHL are and have allways been good defencemen-->orr,

Like I said before you're a tool for using stats to compare a Defencemen and a Centre

never mind,...calling me a tool doesn't make you sound intellegent, it makes you sound like drunk a redneck.

and as far as your "most valuable player in the NHL" argument

9 hart trophies, the most ever,8 of them in a row....now please go back to stupid land where you belong.

[metalwinger_13 0]

teh reason i dismise gretz after the oilers run is because what did he do besides taking the kings to there only finals appearance in 93? nothing much, it seemed his best years were behind him stat wise and if thats what your basing your argument on then he was the best player in the 80s. not of all time to me. there were more dominate players in the 90s, but all he did during the 90s was add up assists. he never showed me somehting special. imnot really a gretz hater i just hate when people look just at stats not his whole career in general.. he did s*** as a oiler.. and maybe a pinch with the kings.. other then that was a shade of himself proving he wasnt great unless he had a prety good team around him. and if your the "great one" im expecting ya to make any team better no matter there skill level. and the only reason he was on top of points is because of the inflated goal scoring of the 80s. howe did it consistantly over 20 some years. in the 90s what did gretz do point wise?? ya i might not have seen him but the highlits i have seen prove to me nothing speical. just a normal bad defenceman form the 80s in front of a bad goalie, and gretz always on a breakaway cause he was "too good" to be in teh defensive zone and get his nose dirty to get the puck.

[theman19 47]

teh reason i dismise gretz after the oilers run is because what did he do besides taking the kings to there only finals appearance in 93? nothing much, it seemed his best years were behind him stat wise and if thats what your basing your argument on then he was the best player in the 80s. not of all time to me. there were more dominate players in the 90s, but all he did during the 90s was add up assists. he never showed me somehting special. imnot really a gretz hater i just hate when people look just at stats not his whole career in general.. he did s*** as a oiler.. and maybe a pinch with the kings.. other then that was a shade of himself proving he wasnt great unless he had a prety good team around him. and if your the "great one" im expecting ya to make any team better no matter there skill level. and the only reason he was on top of points is because of the inflated goal scoring of the 80s. howe did it consistantly over 20 some years. in the 90s what did gretz do point wise?? ya i might not have seen him but the highlits i have seen prove to me nothing speical. just a normal bad defenceman form the 80s in front of a bad goalie, and gretz always on a breakaway cause he was "too good" to be in teh defensive zone and get his nose dirty to get the puck.

beer + typing=bad

[HomeNugget 2]

beer + typing=bad

this, sir, is something you and i both agree on.

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

he did s*** as a oiler..

We're gonna have trouble seeing eye to eye here, I think.

teh reason i dismise gretz after the oilers run is because what did he do besides taking the kings to there only finals appearance in 93?

So now you're asking me, "What did he do besides that thing he did?"

I think we're done here, man.

[bogeygolfer 4]

ya the stats may or may not support that but from what they did to the game is what im looking at. when one revolutionized a postion (orr) and the other is referred to the hockey community as "mr. hockey", you cant argue there greatness along with sawchuk, and others.

you are aware that wayne's nickname when he broke howe's record was "the greatest one right"? If you are, that totally throws out your entire argument. and if you wanna talk about revolutionizing a position lets talk about a bean pole of a player who didn't excell at any particular aspect of the game, but played the game better than anyone in history using one tool that gave him all those points, all those harts, those cups too...His brain, Gretzky wasn't the fastest, wasn't the best skater, hardest shot, damn sure wasn't the best defensively, he was just the smartest.

Look i'm finished here, this argument is pointless, you're not goign to relent to reason, i'm not going to relent to lack of it. i've said what i needed too, have fun.

never mind,...calling me a tool doesn't make you sound intellegent, it makes you sound like drunk a redneck.

and as far as your "most valuable player in the NHL" argument

9 hart trophies, the most ever,8 of them in a row....now please go back to stupid land where you belong.

YES, I get it now!! Because Gretzky is referred to as "The Great One" he is obviously the greatest hockey player

Duh.... thanks for clearing that up for me

I'm also sorry for calling you a tool because when YOU referred to my opinion as "crap" or called me a "moron" it only proves you are intelligent. Another mistake on my behalf

I especially liked it when I said there's more to hockey than stats, and you countered by throwing more stats at me

Edited March 20, 2007 by bogeygolfer

[theman19 47]

YES, I get it now!! Because Gretzky is referred to as "The Great One" he is obviously the greatest hockey player

Duh.... thanks for clearing that up for me

I'm also sorry for calling you a tool because when YOU referred to my opinion as "crap" or called me a "moron" it only proves you are intelligent. Another mistake on my behalf

I especially liked it when I said there's more to hockey than stats, and you countered by throwing more stats at me

okay i'm really truely finished arguing this with you as there's really no point, parting shot,...

number 4 is worn by several people around the league, so is number 9 for better or worse

how many people have 99 on there backs?

[Heroes of Hockeytown 694]

It was a mistake to retire 99 league wide.