Lidstrom certainly is top of this generation

[glasgowcelticwing 18]

Yeah, but I have a hard time saying Radivojevic.

[eva unit zero 271]

5 Norris Trophies isn't enough for respect?

Not when he's been clearly the best defenseman in the league seven times.

He's regarded as one of the best defensemen, if not the best, in the league today by anybody and everybody, and he doesn't get enough respect?

Good geezum.

A good example of the lack of respect Lidstrom gets can be found in a thread on hfboards. It asks whether Scott Niedermayer is one of the ten best defensemen of all-time. Someone posted a list similar to what I posted earlier, and said Niedermayer could be argued to replace Lidstrom because 'prime against prime, they're basically equal.'

That is what is meant by a lack of respect for Nick. Niedermayer has been a Norris finalist three times, twice losing to Nick. Nick had already been a finalist six times and won three by the time Niedermayer was first nominated.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

So who really gives a flying crap then that badly over somebody being slighted like that? This is pretty stupid.

They've both been nominated for the Norris, they are both two damned good defenseman, why does comparing one over the other, when both have done so many great things, a knock against one player or something towards disrespect?

I really don't think Niedermeyer or Lidstrom's feelings will get hurt because fans are thinking they are being "disrespected" when they don't get into any trouble off the ice and have accomplished a lot on it.

I think people need to quit reaching for excuses to disrespect either of them and just realize they are both extremely good, cause it's a waste of time.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

I think Lids passed Bourque years ago on the list of best defensemen. Bourque's last 4 or 5 years were riddled with giveaways and soft play. Its not just cause he played for the Avs, but i personally think he was one of the most overrated defensemen in the last 20 years. He was good, maybe great offensively, but Lidstrom is easily better defensively and overall.

Orr

Harvey

Coffey

Lidstrom

Thats my top 4.

[norrisnick 1]

I hate to be a negative Nancy, but I think Nick retires after his current contract runs out. Unless he is prepared to take a HUGE paycut.

What else does he have to prove? He is the best d-man, he has 3 Cups, a Conn Smythe. Not every player is Chelios. 40 year old virgins are easier to come by than 40 year old defensemen.

Either it's 1 year / 3 million dollar contracts until he retires (3 years max), or he's done after next season.

Scenario time! Bear with me as I set up these WILD hypotheticals...

Wings have another season atop the West. Win a couple/few rounds (hell we can take home the silver for all I care). All with Nick firmly in place playing 80+ games, 28+minutes, scoring 60-70+ points, and being a +30 or so with comparable figures in the playoffs. Then Nick again cleans up at the awards banquet (Norris, 1st Team All Star, top 10 in Hart voting, top 5 in Byng voting, etc...).

Now imagine you're Kenny Holland and Nick's agent calls you up for a repeat of the last contract he signed. 2 years $7.6M/yr (which not so coincidentally is the same contract he signed before that).

Are you going to tell him that all you're willing to offer is $3M for one season? And if he doesn't take it you'll start planning the # retirement festivities?

I think Lids passed Bourque Coffey years ago on the list of best defensemen. Bourque's Coffey's last 4 or 5 years were riddled with giveaways and soft play. Its not just cause he played for the Avs screwed us in the '96 playoffs, but i personally think he was one of the most overrated defensemen in the last 20 years. He was good, maybe great offensively, but Lidstrom is easily better defensively and overall.

Orr

Harvey

Coffey Shore

Lidstrom

Thats my top 4.

Sorry, for the editing...

So who really gives a flying crap then that badly over somebody being slighted like that? This is pretty stupid.

They've both been nominated for the Norris, they are both two damned good defenseman, why does comparing one over the other, when both have done so many great things, a knock against one player or something towards disrespect?

I really don't think Niedermeyer or Lidstrom's feelings will get hurt because fans are thinking they are being "disrespected" when they don't get into any trouble off the ice and have accomplished a lot on it.

I think people need to quit reaching for excuses to disrespect either of them and just realize they are both extremely good, cause it's a waste of time.

You've just described a solid 99.3% of the chatter on the internets. You and I have maybe 47 meaningful posts between us.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Sorry, for the editing...

You've just described a solid 99.3% of the chatter on the internets. You and I have maybe 47 meaningful posts between us.

Yet we still come back for more somehow...

[eva unit zero 271]

I think Lids passed Bourque years ago on the list of best defensemen. Bourque's last 4 or 5 years were riddled with giveaways and soft play. Its not just cause he played for the Avs, but i personally think he was one of the most overrated defensemen in the last 20 years. He was good, maybe great offensively, but Lidstrom is easily better defensively and overall.

Orr

Harvey

Coffey

Lidstrom

Thats my top 4.

Bourque was a postseason All-Star and top four in Norris voting in EVERY SEASON from his rookie year until his seventeenth season. To compare with you how amazing that is: Lidstrom has only played fourteen seasons. Bourque finished with nineteen selections to the postseason All-Star team in twenty-one seasons. Lidstrom has eight in fourteen seasons.

That you rank Coffey top three All-Time shows how little you know of hockey history; Coffey is not even top three among defensemen who played DURING HIS CAREER.

The top five all-time defensemen, in order:

1) Bobby Orr

2) Ray Bourque

3) Doug Harvey

4) Eddie Shore

5) Nick Lidstrom

With a couple more seasons like this year, Lidstrom could easily move into the top two or three.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Yeah, Paul Coffey is the Scott Niedermayer of the past.

As for your post Eva, you seem to be correct, but I just can't place Eddie Shore over Nick. I think Nick has paid enough dues to move on to the top 4, but I would guess 4 MVPs would be hard to contend with.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

So who really gives a flying crap then that badly over somebody being slighted like that? This is pretty stupid.

They've both been nominated for the Norris, they are both two damned good defenseman, why does comparing one over the other, when both have done so many great things, a knock against one player or something towards disrespect?

I really don't think Niedermeyer or Lidstrom's feelings will get hurt because fans are thinking they are being "disrespected" when they don't get into any trouble off the ice and have accomplished a lot on it.

I think people need to quit reaching for excuses to disrespect either of them and just realize they are both extremely good, cause it's a waste of time.

you should check out the awards thread on allducks.com. They think Lidstrom sucks. After about 15 pages of thread I think only 2 or 3 ducks fans thought Lidstrom deserved it. Of course their opinions are to be taken with a grain of salt, not because they're ducks fans but because many of them are morons. One poster claimed that Scott should've won it based on having the most points b/c Lids won it last year with the most points. He claimed that's why they gave it to Nick last year. Couldn't have anything to do with Lids having 80 points and being a +23 while Niedermayer had 63 points and a +8 which isn't even a close race. Lidstrom dominated. This year Niedermayer had like what, 7 points more and was a paltry +6 while Lids was +40? Like I said, morons over there. Many claim it was also East coast bias that gave it to the Wings b/c we're basically in the East. Couple all of that with the assorted Lidstrom sucks comments and he isn't that great comments and Niedermayer has been better forever and so on. I'm not registered over there so I couldn't post it but I wondered if these numbers would mean anything to moronic ducks fans in socal:

Who is better Lidstrom or Niedermayer

Points Per Game: .738 Lids .577 Niedermayer

Goals Per Game: .171 Lids .133

+/- Reg. Season 338 Lids 186

PPG Playoffs: .708 Lids .470

GPG Playoffs: .203 Lids .120

+/- Plaoffs: 27 Lids 22

Is there any wonder why Lidstrom is a 8 time NHL First Team while Nieds is a 3 timer and why Lids has 5 Norris' to Niedermayer's 1?????

FYI-Lids has played in 9 more playoff games and 123 more NHL games. Basically Lids has about 1.5 more seasons under him than Niedermayer but absolutely blows him out of the water. Specifically, for Niedermayer to even put up the numbers Lidstrom has to get close he would have to put up these numbers next year:

Goals 50

Points 130

+120

No contest, Lidstrom is top 5 all-time or at least on the cusp of the top 5. Niedermayer is a winner for sure, has won everywhere he's been but I don't know that he even cracks the top 10 all-time yet let alone top 5. Of course both can only climb the ladder but Niedermayer will never catch Lidstrom. The only thing he has over Nick is 1 more Stanley cup.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Top 10:

Bobby Orr

Ray Bourque

Doug Harvey

Nicklas Lidstrom

Eddie Shore

Denis Potvin

Larry Robinson

Chris Chelios

Al Macinnis

Brian Leetch

That's the way I see it.

[RedRockit 0]

Yeah, Paul Coffey is the Scott Niedermayer of the past.

Thank you. PC was an efficient, talented, and welcome addition to the Wings in the day...

...but...

...well, I was taught to not say anything bad about someone behind his back unless I was willing to say it to his face, and I'd have only good things to tell Paul to his face, and I would sincerely mean it.

...but...

*stuffs hand in mouth before foot gets there*

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

you should check out the awards thread on allducks.com. They think Lidstrom sucks. After about 15 pages of thread I think only 2 or 3 ducks fans thought Lidstrom deserved it. Of course their opinions are to be taken with a grain of salt, not because they're ducks fans but because many of them are morons. One poster claimed that Scott should've won it based on having the most points b/c Lids won it last year with the most points. He claimed that's why they gave it to Nick last year. Couldn't have anything to do with Lids having 80 points and being a +23 while Niedermayer had 63 points and a +8 which isn't even a close race. Lidstrom dominated. This year Niedermayer had like what, 7 points more and was a paltry +6 while Lids was +40? Like I said, morons over there. Many claim it was also East coast bias that gave it to the Wings b/c we're basically in the East. Couple all of that with the assorted Lidstrom sucks comments and he isn't that great comments and Niedermayer has been better forever and so on. I'm not registered over there so I couldn't post it but I wondered if these numbers would mean anything to moronic ducks fans in socal:

Who is better Lidstrom or Niedermayer

Points Per Game: .738 Lids .577 Niedermayer

Goals Per Game: .171 Lids .133

+/- Reg. Season 338 Lids 186

PPG Playoffs: .708 Lids .470

GPG Playoffs: .203 Lids .120

+/- Plaoffs: 27 Lids 22

Is there any wonder why Lidstrom is a 8 time NHL First Team while Nieds is a 3 timer and why Lids has 5 Norris' to Niedermayer's 1?????

FYI-Lids has played in 9 more playoff games and 123 more NHL games. Basically Lids has about 1.5 more seasons under him than Niedermayer but absolutely blows him out of the water. Specifically, for Niedermayer to even put up the numbers Lidstrom has to get close he would have to put up these numbers next year:

Goals 50

Points 130

+120

No contest, Lidstrom is top 5 all-time or at least on the cusp of the top 5. Niedermayer is a winner for sure, has won everywhere he's been but I don't know that he even cracks the top 10 all-time yet let alone top 5. Of course both can only climb the ladder but Niedermayer will never catch Lidstrom. The only thing he has over Nick is 1 more Stanley cup.

I don't think there's much question Lidstrom is better overall, but I'm not going to sound like a Red Wing homer slighting Niedermeyer in any way because Lidstrom is a bit better, because Niedermeyer is still very good, and it's the same way the other way around.

In terms of the source, I've never been to allducks.com, but from what I've seen, a lot of people in there don't seem to be all that bright unfortunately.

[eva unit zero 271]

Top 10:

Al Macinnis

Brian Leetch

You rank these two over Paul Coffey and Red Kelly?

Let's look at something. First team All-Star selections.

Kelly has 6, Coffey has 4, MacInnis has 4, and Leetch has 2.

Now, let's look at total postseason All-Star selections:

Kelly has 8, Coffey has 8, MacInnis has 7, and Leetch has 5.

Now, times named best defenseman (top vote-getter for postseason All-Stars for pre-Norris years):

Kelly 4, Coffey 3, Leetch 2, MacInnis 1.

I think it's pretty clear Kelly is the most accomplished of the four, and that Coffey is the best of the three who played since 1980.

For Coffey/MacInnis, we can also do a head to head.

Coffey began play in 80-81, MacInnis in 81-82. Coffey was named to the postseason all-star team ahead of MacInnis seven times (once being named behind MacInnis), while MacInnis was named ahead of Coffey five times (once being named behind Coffey, and once being named after Coffey had reitred. MacInnis beats Leetch in the same comparison 6-3.

So Leetch is behind MacInnis, who is behind Coffey. Kelly is an even 5-5 with Doug Harvey, for reference to how he compares with other greats. Harvey did win the Norris three times after Kelly left Detroit, but Kelly was playing mostly center after he left Detroit.