Yzerman's All Time Ranking

[Wings_Fan_In_Exile 3]

Wrong. Yzerman received Selke votes as far back as the 80s, and is the only player in league history to receive at least one first place Selke vote in the same season he scored more than 140 points. Bryan Trottier has said Yzerman, even as a rookie, was excellent defensively. Darren Pang has said that Yzerman played that style as far back as juniors.

1) Gordie Howe

2) Bobby Orr

3) Wayne Gretzky

4) Mario Lemieux

5) Steve Yzerman

Any other top-five list is just wrong.

That is a list I could definately live with.

[WillieH 0]

WillieH: Having personally watched ALL players on my list, (I'm 62) ...HANDS DOWN...

(1) STEVE YZERMAN, is the best NON-goalie to ever play the game of HOCKEY... He has been the consumate LEADER since He was a BOY, ...He won endless awards, was unequalled when ALL aspects of His game are considered such as: OFFENSIVE scoring ability, DEFENSIVE positioning and tact, Break-away feared, unselfish, face off dominating, conditioning, leading by example, quiet, sincere, strong, fast, deceptive, and ...in the end, ...an ARMY of a PLAYER...

If ALL things are considered... then OFFENSE, DEFENSE, Leadership, Speed, Athleticism, desire, work ethic, consistency, and Public Persona all must be considered...

(BTW Goalies must be ranked by themselves, for their game is entirely different, 99% of their game is involvement in DEFENSE, [we'll give'em credit for a good pass here & there! ) whereas all other players must be part of BOTH Offense and Defense, at ALL TIMES...)

(2) Mark Messier in my opinion is the ONLY player to come close to STEVE YZERMAN... He was a great scorer, played in all situations, at all times during his entire career. He was a great leader, gritty, strong, deceptively fast, tricky, won titles, ...showed and paved the way for the organizations he played for... leading by exemplifying the game of HOCKEY with ALL his heart, toughness and athletic ability...

(3) Wayne Gretsky was the greatest scorer, but certainly not the best all-around player ever...

(4) Bobby Orr might have been the best had he had just a "bit" of better luck with his anatomy...

(5) Gordie Howe was a scorer, scrapper, arrogant, selfish, forcefully great player...

(6) Mario Lemieux was a great scorer, captain, strong, injury prone, publicly strong, ...dominating player

(7) Maurice Richard unstoppable offensive talent, fast, consistent, Hall of Fame dominator...

However, I believe ALL from #3 on down will FALL a notch when Sidney Crosby is done with his career... Like Yzerman, ...He is leading the way from his youth... He will not only continue to get better OFFENSIVELY (which in itself is scary), but he will become a dominating DEFENSIVE forward, and rake in trophy after trophy until everyone is quite sick of it...

[wingsownnhl43 14]

ok willieh, Wayne Gretzky may have not been the best "all-around" in the game. However, if i am picking one player that had the most impact on each and every game, then he is my pick.

Some people rag on Gretzky for not being aggressive, or being lackadaisical in his own end but my god was he unstoppable.

[BeeRYCE 2]

I still don't get how you can score nearly 3000 career points, 3 200 point seasons, get more total assists in a season than anybody (except Lemieux) can get points, and still not be considered the best ever. With getting 215 points in a season, I don't think he had time to be defensive or physical, he was too busy SCORING.

[Kp-Wings 3]

I still don't get how you can score nearly 3000 career points, 3 200 point seasons, get more total assists in a season than anybody (except Lemieux) can get points, and still not be considered the best ever. With getting 215 points in a season, I don't think he had time to be defensive or physical, he was too busy SCORING.

Exactly.

Bad defensivily or not, Gretzky is untouchable. Nobody will ever come close to the greatness he achieved. Maybe Crosby could, but not likely.

[BeeRYCE 2]

Crosby will probably average 150 points per season for 10 years.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

"Again though, what the heck that has to do with actually be successful at playing the game I have no idea. I don't know if I'd but Trottier (wasn't that Stevie's idol??) ahead of Stevie but I wouldn't kick somebody's teeth in for suggesting it. I might like to kick your teeth in for suggesting Stevie is ahead of Gretzky or even Mess. Thankfully, the lunacy of that makes you look silly enough that there's no need to add injury to insult. okay there homer."

It means that if Yzerman had been on the teams the messier and grezky were on, surrounded by the talen they were, he would be higher then 6th on the list of career points, there, clear enough for you moron. And you call me the homer. Second, you are correct about trotier being his idol, howver i cannot find the corelation between his ranking and my personal opinion of trottier. gretzky was great and always had a great supportinf cast, messier however is not even is yzermans league bro.

HAHA! I do so love it when people use the woulda, shoulda, coulda argument to bolster their position. Do you not see how ridiculous that is? Wouldn't any player have better stats if they played with Gretzky on those Oiler teams? Wouldn't Stevie have won more trophies if Gretz and Mario didn't play in the same era? WTF do you want to do, act like those guys never played the game? Should we think less of Scott Niedermayer or Chris Pronger because Lidstrom dominated this era for d-men? What if Lids didn't exist, does that mean Niedermayer would have like 3 or 4 Norris trophies or maybe Pronger would have that many?

Don't you have to judge a player on what he accomplished and not what he could've accomplished had other players not existed or had certain players played on different teams? What if Messier played for the Blackhawks his entire career? Of course he wouldn't be the player we know of today. Do you not see the flaw inherent in your logic? What if Alexandre Daigle actually gave a s*** about hockey from day 1. He might have been the next great thing. What if Lindros never suffered those concussions, he could be right at the top, maybe the greatest power forward ever short of Gordie Howe.

Woulda, shoulda, coulda is an argument that 5 year olds make. But hey, for a 5 year old its impressive that you can type at all.

Oh, I wouldn't say that. They both were equal in skill level, in terms of playmaking, finding the net, etc. What Yzerman has up on Messier is his defensive ability and heart, BUT Messier has physicality on Stevie, and physicality is a pretty important. I only rate Stevie higher because well I'm a Wings fan, and the fact that I'm a huge fan of the defensive aspect of the game. Fans of the more hard nosed players would pick Mess. It's apples and oranges with Messier and Yzerman, at the end of the day, they're both at the exact same level.

Well said Bee. Although I don't know if i'd ever question Messier's heart. At least not to his face I wouldn't.

...the only argument I have is, in my opinion, NO WAY does Messier rank above Yzerman... Not a chance...

:rotflmao: :puke:

...problem is, if Yzerman played with gretzky half his career, he'd be #3 or #4 in scoring behind Gretz, Howe & Lemieux...

...Messier was a beneficiary of great teams in the 80's compared to Yzerman's teams in the 80's...

...and to say that Messier was a better captain? LOL! Look at the teams he captained, all teams with great line-ups, well except the time he spent in Vancouver and well, his GREAT captain skills didn't prove too good there...

By FAR Yzerman was a better Captain and player than Messier!

...you're just stupid...

I can't believe there's still whining about who the better Captain is. This is ridiculous and its homerism at its finest. They were both great captains. WTF did Yzerman do that was so great (leader-wise) when the Wings sucked all those years? What exactly made him a great leader then? As for your comment about the great lineups the Oilers had, are you insinuating that Stevie didn't have great lineups. From 1995-96 on, the Wings were the class of the NHL and Stevie only ever won a stanley cup when he had superstars around him like Fedorov, Lidstrom and Shanahan. Prior to that we didn't win s***.

And again with the woulda, coulda, shoulda argument. You can't judge a player on what his accomplishments might have been had he played on a different team with different players. Mess has more points, more cups, more trophies and yadda, yadda, yadda. I think they're equally great leaders. It'd be like trying to say Patton is better than Monty or Eisenhower is better than GW Bush.....oh wait, bad example.

If Stevie played on the Oilers teams he probably would have better numbers. Too bad for you that they don't judge accomplishments like that. s***, if I were taller, faster, stronger and a better hockey player i'd probably be in the NHL. Do you not see how ridiculous a position that is????

[RollWings19 0]

WillieH: Having personally watched ALL players on my list, (I'm 62) ...HANDS DOWN...

(1) STEVE YZERMAN, is the best NON-goalie to ever play the game of HOCKEY... He has been the consumate LEADER since He was a BOY, ...He won endless awards, was unequalled when ALL aspects of His game are considered such as: OFFENSIVE scoring ability, DEFENSIVE positioning and tact, Break-away feared, unselfish, face off dominating, conditioning, leading by example, quiet, sincere, strong, fast, deceptive, and ...in the end, ...an ARMY of a PLAYER...

If ALL things are considered... then OFFENSE, DEFENSE, Leadership, Speed, Athleticism, desire, work ethic, consistency, and Public Persona all must be considered...

That sounds like a description of Joe Sakic as well, especially bringing the public persona element into play. I know we all wear Red and White glasses, but if Stevie Y is #1, and Sakic's not in anyone's Top 10, then where does he fall? 15th? 50th? haha

2 more seasons and he will have more career points than Steve, and has a higher playoff scoring average. Steve has him beat in Cups won, but I can't honestly see THAT big of a gap between the 2. I've had my share of hatred spread amongst the Avalanche roster over the years, but I've never hated Joe Sakic. I think that speaks for itself.

[eva unit zero 271]

You're right, I honestly forgot Francis's Selke.

As for Jagr feeding off Francis's success. I'm inclined to disagree. 3 of his 5 Art Ross trophies were WITHOUT Francis, 2 of which without Lemieux. During the late 90's, Jagr was the Penguins. The last 2 seasons with New York, he was the Rangers, with the exception of Lundqvist of course.

I said Jagr's best seasons came with Francis. Meaning the run from 95-98...Francis was his center every one of those seasons. After that he had to downgrade to Martin Straka for two seasons, before giving seeing time with Jan Hrdina for the first part of the 00-01 season, in which he had one of his least prolific periods. Until, of course, Mario Lemieux came out of retirement and helped him along.

My major beef with Jagr is that he has always had a couple very talented teammates. Even in Washington he had Lang, Gonchar, and Bondra. I don't like that Jagr is given all kinds of praise for singlehandedly leading these one-man teams that had solid offensive players BESIDES Jagr, and whose problem, like Jagr, was in PREVENTING goals. The 00-01 Pens are a fine example--they were the only team in the league to allow more than 240 goals and still win more than they lost. In 99-00, they were the only team giving up 230 that won more than they lost. In 98-99, Toronto gave up 231 (and still bitched and moaned when Joseph didn't win the Vezina) and had a winning record, the only team in the three year span other than Pittsburgh to do so while allowing as many goals as the Pens. Interestingly enough, the Pens of 97-98--Tom Barrasso's last healthy season with the club and Ron Francis' last year in Pittsburgh--was the last time the Pens allowed fewer than 225. That year, they allowed 188.

If Stevie played on the Oilers teams he probably would have better numbers. Too bad for you that they don't judge accomplishments like that. s***, if I were taller, faster, stronger and a better hockey player i'd probably be in the NHL. Do you not see how ridiculous a position that is????

That's why I use the 'if Yzerman hadn't destroyed his knee' argument. Simply by projecting his per-season points per game over the games missed each year with his knee injury, he comes darn close to the top 2 in scoring. Before any 'woulda coulda' adjusting his scoring pace, simply adjusting his numbers based on his actual per game average puts him right there near the top. Given that Yzerman, not Messier, was an elite defensive forward, it's difficult to argue Messier ahead of Yzerman. Certainly not impossible, but an uphill battle, especially on this board.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I said Jagr's best seasons came with Francis. Meaning the run from 95-98...Francis was his center every one of those seasons. After that he had to downgrade to Martin Straka for two seasons, before giving seeing time with Jan Hrdina for the first part of the 00-01 season, in which he had one of his least prolific periods. Until, of course, Mario Lemieux came out of retirement and helped him along.

My major beef with Jagr is that he has always had a couple very talented teammates. Even in Washington he had Lang, Gonchar, and Bondra. I don't like that Jagr is given all kinds of praise for singlehandedly leading these one-man teams that had solid offensive players BESIDES Jagr, and whose problem, like Jagr, was in PREVENTING goals. The 00-01 Pens are a fine example--they were the only team in the league to allow more than 240 goals and still win more than they lost. In 99-00, they were the only team giving up 230 that won more than they lost. In 98-99, Toronto gave up 231 (and still bitched and moaned when Joseph didn't win the Vezina) and had a winning record, the only team in the three year span other than Pittsburgh to do so while allowing as many goals as the Pens. Interestingly enough, the Pens of 97-98--Tom Barrasso's last healthy season with the club and Ron Francis' last year in Pittsburgh--was the last time the Pens allowed fewer than 225. That year, they allowed 188.

That's why I use the 'if Yzerman hadn't destroyed his knee' argument. Simply by projecting his per-season points per game over the games missed each year with his knee injury, he comes darn close to the top 2 in scoring. Before any 'woulda coulda' adjusting his scoring pace, simply adjusting his numbers based on his actual per game average puts him right there near the top. Given that Yzerman, not Messier, was an elite defensive forward, it's difficult to argue Messier ahead of Yzerman. Certainly not impossible, but an uphill battle, especially on this board.

Yeah, but then the argument could be made that what if Lemieux had never gotten injured or had played with the Oilers, project his points over the same amount of games as the others played. What if Lemieux played as many games as Messier did? Stevie would probably still be 4th or 5th. And i've never like projecting a players' numbers. If a guy scores a 2 goals on opening night he's projected to score 164 for the season. Or if he scores 30 by the mid-point he is on pace for 60 but how often does that happen? Projecting numbers is bad science IMO.

[Hank 0]

I know that all of us here love Steve Yzerman, but I was just wondering where some of you objectively have him ranked on your all time greatest players list? Personally, I have him 9th or 10th on my list.

I usually try to avoid threads like this due to the fact that I'm an ENORMOUS Yzerman slappy.

Saying that, when you consider simply points and accomplishements, I'd have to say that he's in the top 5. Wayne, Mario, Orr and Gordie.

But Stevie's career is noticeably two chapters. While guys like Wayne, Mario and even guys not in their stratosphere like Sakic and Lafontaine, have all been allowed to be offensive players their whole lives, Stevie had the reigns pulled on him during his prime years.

Before Bowman, Yzerman (IMHO) was the 3rd greatest offensive player to ever play the game. Outside of Wayne and Mario I don't think there was anyone close. He made Bob freakin' Probert a 29 goal scorer for crying out loud. He was one of the rare players that could see the ice like he was watching it on TV. All those that played with him became instantly better and he could single handedly win games all on his own.

But then Bowman made him more complete and he earned 3 Cups because of it. And yet, despite being given Bob Errey and a slew of other cement handed wingers to play with, he still managed to put up over a point a game, with a battered knee and damaged back and in an era fondly referred to as 'the dead puck era'. And lets not forget that he did this as a 30 something year old who was no bigger than 5'9".

If you consider all the intangibles such as heart, desire, toughness, defense, etc. I dare say that I'd prefer to have a team built around Steve Yzerman than Lemieux and possibly even Gretzky. When considering the "full monty" I think Yzerman's in the same class as Bobby Orr (who was awesome in all 3 zones, would hit and was a terribly good fighter too), Mark Messier and Gordie Howe.

I'd put him 3rd on the list behind Orr and Howe and he gets a nod over Messier because I believe he was a better scorer than Moose.

All in all, I truly believe that if Yzerman never wrecked his knee or back he would have retired as the 2nd leading scorer in the history of the NHL. 1800+ points would have been a cinch for him and I believe that 2,000 might not have been out of the question. If you look at his points-per-game when he was hurt and even afterward, the man put up tremendous numbers. Sure, he had a great team to play with for the latter part of his career but this, at times, worked against his stats as he was slowly moved off the PP and did a lot of his ES work on the 3rd line.

I love Stevie. He's easily my favourite hockey player of all time and always will be. Now if only he let someone write an indepth and upclose biography I'd be in Heaven.

Edited July 24, 2007 by Hank

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I usually try to avoid threads like this due to the fact that I'm an ENORMOUS Yzerman slappy.

Saying that, when you consider simply points and accomplishements, I'd have to say that he's in the top 5. Wayne, Mario, Orr and Gordie.

But Stevie's career is noticeably two chapters. While guys like Wayne, Mario and even guys not in their stratosphere like Sakic and Lafontaine, have all been allowed to be offensive players their whole lives, Stevie had the reigns pulled on him during his prime years.

Before Bowman, Yzerman (IMHO) was the 3rd greatest offensive player to ever play the game. Outside of Wayne and Mario I don't think there was anyone close. He made Bob freakin' Probert a 29 goal scorer for crying out loud. He was one of the rare players that could see the ice like he was watching it on TV. All those that played with him became instantly better and he could single handedly win games all on his own.

But then Bowman made him more complete and he earned 3 Cups because of it. And yet, despite being given Bob Errey and a slew of other cement handed wingers to play with, he still managed to put up over a point a game, with a battered knee and damaged back and in an era fondly referred to as 'the dead puck era'. And lets not forget that he did this as a 30 something year old who was no bigger than 5'9".

If you consider all the intangibles such as heart, desire, toughness, defense, etc. I dare say that I'd prefer to have a team built around Steve Yzerman than Lemieux and possibly even Gretzky. When considering the "full monty" I think Yzerman's in the same class as Bobby Orr (who was awesome in all 3 zones, would hit and was a terribly good fighter too), Mark Messier and Gordie Howe.

I'd put him 3rd on the list behind Orr and Howe and he gets a nod over Messier because I believe he was a better scorer than Moose.

All in all, I truly believe that if Yzerman never wrecked his knee or back he would have retired as the 2nd leading scorer in the history of the NHL. 1800+ points would have been a cinch for him and I believe that 2,000 might not have been out of the question. If you look at his points-per-game when he was hurt and even afterward, the man put up tremendous numbers. Sure, he had a great team to play with for the latter part of his career but this, at times, worked against his stats as he was slowly moved off the PP and did a lot of his ES work on the 3rd line.

I love Stevie. He's easily my favourite hockey player of all time and always will be. Now if only he let someone write an indepth and upclose biography I'd be in Heaven.

What about Lemieux. You can't arbitrarily say Yzerman woulda done this if he had not wrecked his knee or whatever. Lemieux retired a couple times, fought cancer and multiple injuries as well. So Lemieux, if given the same courtesy one could say would still make Stevie #3 even if he managed 1800, 1900 or even 2000 points.

Stevie

1755 points 1514 games

Lemieux

1723 points 915 games

That's not even close. If Lemieux had played 1500 games he'd project out to 2800 some points and possibly surpass Gretz. So given hypotheticals such as this (which I think are completely bogus) there's no way Stevie could retire #2

Or am I missing something?

[Wing Nut 19 0]

But the thing is, if you check out how many games Lemieux played. In comparison to Wayne or Stevie, Super Mario actually had better stats. I believe he only played around 800 games. Which makes his point average per game insanely high. Plus he was extremely physical and was just a pure winner. Super Mario HAS to be in the top 10. Cause if he had played even near the mount of games Gretzky and Yzerman played, his stats would be crazy good.

You couldn't be more right if you were ME!

I've been saying this for years! http://tsn.ca/nhl/teams/players/bio/?id=4011&hubname=nhl Just look at his stats Career +115 915 GAMES 690 GOALS 1033 ASSISTS 1723 POINTS Incredible.

But I still rank Stevie Y ahead of him

1 Howe

2 Yzerman

3 Messier

4 Lemieux

5 Orr

6 Gretzky

7 Richard

8 Lindsay

9 Bourque

10 Dellveccio

[eva unit zero 271]

Yeah, but then the argument could be made that what if Lemieux had never gotten injured or had played with the Oilers, project his points over the same amount of games as the others played. What if Lemieux played as many games as Messier did? Stevie would probably still be 4th or 5th. And i've never like projecting a players' numbers. If a guy scores a 2 goals on opening night he's projected to score 164 for the season. Or if he scores 30 by the mid-point he is on pace for 60 but how often does that happen? Projecting numbers is bad science IMO.

In this case, projecting numbers works, and I'll tell you why: The years Yzerman missed the most time due to his knee injury were also some of his worst seasons for PPG. There exists a very strong chance that projected numbers in any year with a significant amount of games missed would have been BELOW Yzerman's point total had he played all the games. As far as Lemieux is concerned...you did see the fact I ranked him ABOVE Yzerman, yes? Lemieux sees an increase of several hundred points when you pro-rate the large chunks of missed games, and that doesn't even include 94-95 or 97-00, a span which likely cost Lemieux upwards of 500 points on its own. Lemieux missed 761 games during his career. Only in his final season did he drop below the point-per-game mark. Figure that he only scores a point per game over the missed games, he's still at 2500 just from that.

[WillieH 0]

willieH: Hi RollWings!

That sounds like a description of Joe Sakic as well, especially bringing the public persona element into play. I know we all wear Red and White glasses, but if Stevie Y is #1, and Sakic's not in anyone's Top 10, then where does he fall? 15th? 50th? haha

2 more seasons and he will have more career points than Steve, and has a higher playoff scoring average. Steve has him beat in Cups won, but I can't honestly see THAT big of a gap between the 2. I've had my share of hatred spread amongst the Avalanche roster over the years, but I've never hated Joe Sakic. I think that speaks for itself.

Joe Sakic is another, that just isn't considered because GLAM is all that is noted when considering the BEST... The "who scored the most points" parameter deciding who was the best...

Let's not discount the 'Great One's" credentials as meaningless, but scoring isnt the only consideration when deciding who was the best PLAYER... And once, the "Great One" left Edmonton, his scoring diminished, his value diminished and though he remained elite... he no longer had the surrounding distractions which contributed greatly to that "scoring touch"....

Gretzky had quite a supporting cast from his beginning playing with the likes of Jari kurri, Paul Coffey, Mark Messier, Glen Anderson... and had the primier goalie in the game, so he could play with reckless abandon... knowing his butt was covered... could basically do anything he wanted to, without regard to anything other than putting the biscuit in the basket, which, no arguement, ...he did quite well...

Yzerman, came into the league to play for the DEAD WINGS... and His Inspiriation and play was the KEY that turned the Detroit Red Wings back into the winners they once were when Howe, Delvecchio, Lindsay, Sawchuck, Kelly & Pronovost were roaming the rink! :beerbuddy:

He had no "Jari Kurri's" or "Mark Messier's" or "Paul Coffey's" to distract the goalies... No... Instead, ...He had the BEST DEFENSEMEN in the LEAGUE surrounding HIM in every game...

the game plan against the WINGS: Stop YZERMAN and win...

the game plan to stop the OILERS: Which one of these guys is gonna beat us tonite?

And once YZERMAN gained a few "distractions" like Federov, Larionov, and Lidstrom.... His leadership flowered into CHAMPIONSHIPS, just one short of GRETZKY...

To really determine who was best, is only a matter of opinion, and cannot be done in reality... it is like determining who is the best SINGER or who is the best ACTOR or who is the best FOOTBALL player.... its just not possible...

GLAM=greatest in most minds... In my mind, the most ROUNDED talent which comparitively EXCELLS WITH THE BEST in ALL AREAS, determines the BEST... JMHO

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

In this case, projecting numbers works, and I'll tell you why: The years Yzerman missed the most time due to his knee injury were also some of his worst seasons for PPG. There exists a very strong chance that projected numbers in any year with a significant amount of games missed would have been BELOW Yzerman's point total had he played all the games. As far as Lemieux is concerned...you did see the fact I ranked him ABOVE Yzerman, yes? Lemieux sees an increase of several hundred points when you pro-rate the large chunks of missed games, and that doesn't even include 94-95 or 97-00, a span which likely cost Lemieux upwards of 500 points on its own. Lemieux missed 761 games during his career. Only in his final season did he drop below the point-per-game mark. Figure that he only scores a point per game over the missed games, he's still at 2500 just from that.

[/quote

I get what you're saying Eva. I just don't really agree with number projections. You do what you do in the time you're alloted. Projections don't get you into the Hall and they don't get you any other accolades, they're just fodder for bums like us to make our case. The point is you can't prove a projection nor any of these hypotheticals so I don't see much use in them. You hang up your skates and what you accomplished is what you accomplished. If you start saying what if it just muddies up the entire thing. What if Gretz, Lemieux, Yzerman, Borque, etc.. all played for the same team for 20 years.....the what ifs are endless and IMO pointless. Wings fans are going to rank Stevie higher because we're biased. Sorry, there's no way to sugarcoat that. We are. Someday some group of wise hockey folks will compile another top 100 of all time. I'd be willing to bet a handsome some that Stevie ain't gonna be anywhere near the top 5 on that list. He may not even make the top 10. Personally, I think he has the credentials to solidify a spot anywhere from 8-14 probably.

willieH: Hi RollWings!

Joe Sakic is another, that just isn't considered because GLAM is all that is noted when considering the BEST... The "who scored the most points" parameter deciding who was the best...

Let's not discount the 'Great One's" credentials as meaningless, but scoring isnt the only consideration when deciding who was the best PLAYER... And once, the "Great One" left Edmonton, his scoring diminished, his value diminished and though he remained elite... he no longer had the surrounding distractions which contributed greatly to that "scoring touch"....

Gretzky had quite a supporting cast from his beginning playing with the likes of Jari kurri, Paul Coffey, Mark Messier, Glen Anderson... and had the primier goalie in the game, so he could play with reckless abandon... knowing his butt was covered... could basically do anything he wanted to, without regard to anything other than putting the biscuit in the basket, which, no arguement, ...he did quite well...

Yzerman, came into the league to play for the DEAD WINGS... and His Inspiriation and play was the KEY that turned the Detroit Red Wings back into the winners they once were when Howe, Delvecchio, Lindsay, Sawchuck, Kelly & Pronovost were roaming the rink! :beerbuddy:

He had no "Jari Kurri's" or "Mark Messier's" or "Paul Coffey's" to distract the goalies... No... Instead, ...He had the BEST DEFENSEMEN in the LEAGUE surrounding HIM in every game...

the game plan against the WINGS: Stop YZERMAN and win...

the game plan to stop the OILERS: Which one of these guys is gonna beat us tonite?

And once YZERMAN gained a few "distractions" like Federov, Larionov, and Lidstrom.... His leadership flowered into CHAMPIONSHIPS, just one short of GRETZKY...

To really determine who was best, is only a matter of opinion, and cannot be done in reality... it is like determining who is the best SINGER or who is the best ACTOR or who is the best FOOTBALL player.... its just not possible...

GLAM=greatest in most minds... In my mind, the most ROUNDED talent which comparitively EXCELLS WITH THE BEST in ALL AREAS, determines the BEST... JMHO

Actually, during that period all players had the ability to play with reckless abandon regarding offense. The fact of the matter remains that only one of them posted 200 point seasons and posted more career assists than anybody else has points. It'd be like Barry Bonds going for home run number 1250 or something. When you factor in that when somebody scores a goal there's probably a high chance 2 other players got assists. Given that you'd think there'd be quite a few guys with roughly the same amount of points. But you don't have that. You have alot of guys who put up huge numbers and then you have Wayne who dwarfed them all during the same period of time. What made so many guys score over 100 points or 100-130 points and yet Wayne is posting numbers 50,60, 70 points higher?

[Spartan2k88 0]

WillieH: Having personally watched ALL players on my list, (I'm 62) ...HANDS DOWN...

(1) STEVE YZERMAN, is the best NON-goalie to ever play the game of HOCKEY... He has been the consumate LEADER since He was a BOY, ...He won endless awards, was unequalled when ALL aspects of His game are considered such as: OFFENSIVE scoring ability, DEFENSIVE positioning and tact, Break-away feared, unselfish, face off dominating, conditioning, leading by example, quiet, sincere, strong, fast, deceptive, and ...in the end, ...an ARMY of a PLAYER...

If ALL things are considered... then OFFENSE, DEFENSE, Leadership, Speed, Athleticism, desire, work ethic, consistency, and Public Persona all must be considered...

(BTW Goalies must be ranked by themselves, for their game is entirely different, 99% of their game is involvement in DEFENSE, [we'll give'em credit for a good pass here & there! ) whereas all other players must be part of BOTH Offense and Defense, at ALL TIMES...)

(2) Mark Messier in my opinion is the ONLY player to come close to STEVE YZERMAN... He was a great scorer, played in all situations, at all times during his entire career. He was a great leader, gritty, strong, deceptively fast, tricky, won titles, ...showed and paved the way for the organizations he played for... leading by exemplifying the game of HOCKEY with ALL his heart, toughness and athletic ability...

(3) Wayne Gretsky was the greatest scorer, but certainly not the best all-around player ever...

(4) Bobby Orr might have been the best had he had just a "bit" of better luck with his anatomy...

(5) Gordie Howe was a scorer, scrapper, arrogant, selfish, forcefully great player...

(6) Mario Lemieux was a great scorer, captain, strong, injury prone, publicly strong, ...dominating player

(7) Maurice Richard unstoppable offensive talent, fast, consistent, Hall of Fame dominator...

However, I believe ALL from #3 on down will FALL a notch when Sidney Crosby is done with his career... Like Yzerman, ...He is leading the way from his youth... He will not only continue to get better OFFENSIVELY (which in itself is scary), but he will become a dominating DEFENSIVE forward, and rake in trophy after trophy until everyone is quite sick of it...

You have gotta be kidding me!! Gretzky is the undisputed #1. He's about 1,000 pts ahead of the person in second place. I maybe see Yzerman just outside of the top 10. By the end of his career, Joe Sakic will be well into the Top 10 as well

[eva unit zero 271]

You have gotta be kidding me!! Gretzky is the undisputed #1.

That's just not true.

[BeeRYCE 2]

By the end of his career, Joe Sakic will be well into the Top 10 as well

Sakic is currently 38 years old. As of now, he is probably undisputedly a top 20 of all time player, between number 15-20. This season may be his last good season, and I can't see him posting up 100 points again, especially with Wolski, Smyth, Stastny, and Svatos potenitally posting decent numbers. I don't think the one or two seasons he has in front of him will clinch him a top 10 spot.

[eva unit zero 271]

Actually, during that period all players had the ability to play with reckless abandon regarding offense. The fact of the matter remains that only one of them posted 200 point seasons and posted more career assists than anybody else has points. It'd be like Barry Bonds going for home run number 1250 or something. When you factor in that when somebody scores a goal there's probably a high chance 2 other players got assists. Given that you'd think there'd be quite a few guys with roughly the same amount of points. But you don't have that. You have alot of guys who put up huge numbers and then you have Wayne who dwarfed them all during the same period of time. What made so many guys score over 100 points or 100-130 points and yet Wayne is posting numbers 50,60, 70 points higher?

And yet, what was possibly the most impressive single season ever was put up by Yzerman, when he scored 155 points and was a Selke candidate.

[BeeRYCE 2]

If Yzerman scored 215 points that season, he wouldn't be a Selke candidate. As I said, Gretzky had no time to demonstrate defensive ability. Averaging over 2.5 points in some seasons isn't no walk in the park. The average all star forward gets a little over 20 minutes a game, 25 to 30 shifts, imagine, during that rather short time on ice, Gretzky was racking up points every 5-10 shifts, and those other shifts were spent creating/getting scoring chances.

Note: Yzerman is my all time favourite player, but not in a million years would I put him ahead of Gretzky (or Howe, Orr, and Lemieux for that matter).

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

And yet, what was possibly the most impressive single season ever was put up by Yzerman, when he scored 155 points and was a Selke candidate.

You won't find a hockey person out there, coach, player, GM, Owner, writer, etc....that would name that the best single season ever. Gretz would probably lock up 2 or 3 of the 1st 5-6 spots on any such list and Lemieux's 199 would beat it also. Just because he was a Selke nominee doesn't overshadow 50 point margins of difference. If he had scored 180 points or more we'd have something to talk about.

[Spartan2k88 0]

Sakic is currently 38 years old. As of now, he is probably undisputedly a top 20 of all time player, between number 15-20. This season may be his last good season, and I can't see him posting up 100 points again, especially with Wolski, Smyth, Stastny, and Svatos potenitally posting decent numbers. I don't think the one or two seasons he has in front of him will clinch him a top 10 spot.

he's already #9 in all time scoring...one point away from #8. Of course he's 38 now, but has shown NO signs of slowing down. He's stayed healthy for most of his career. And those other players only increase his chances!! He's already said that he wants to play in the 2010 olympics in BC. So he's got a few more years left.

And as for Gretzky...he has over 1,100 more points than Yzerman. And Steve played in 27 more games than Gretzky. No way is Gretzky any less than #1.

[Opie 308]

Personally I believe the debate for who is what rank below #2 is subject to a lot of opinions. I think it is impossible to rank Gretzky and Orr any less than 1-2 respectively.

Say what you want about the era they played in, equipment, injuries, or whatever else, when you look at what they accomplished no one put up better numbers or were bigger impacts on the sport than 99 & 4.

Orr revolutionized the idea of what a defenceman was/is.

Gretzky if I need to defend this than I fear some one is letting personal bias interfere with this ranking.

I have read valid arguments for Stevie being as high as 4 and as low as 10. I personally have him 7th.

I see Sakic coming in not too far behind Stevie put not cracking the 10 spot, probably 12th the lowest.

Gretzky

Orr

Howe

Lemieux

Hull, Bobby not Brett

Richard

Yzerman

Esposito

Dionne

Bourque

was my list to get to Sakic I would go

Messier

Sakic

I have a hard time seeing those two higher than the other guys I have.

[eva unit zero 271]

You won't find a hockey person out there, coach, player, GM, Owner, writer, etc....that would name that the best single season ever. Gretz would probably lock up 2 or 3 of the 1st 5-6 spots on any such list and Lemieux's 199 would beat it also. Just because he was a Selke nominee doesn't overshadow 50 point margins of difference. If he had scored 180 points or more we'd have something to talk about.

Yzerman with 155, not Lemieux with 199, won the Pearson that season. That would suggest that Yzerman's 88-89 season would beat any season from Gretzky below 200 points by the mere fact that Lemieux was better all-around than Gretzky. When you then consider that Lemieux's 199 points was equivalent to Gretzky's 212 when you consider the differing levels of offense between the early and late 90s; using Total Hockey's adjusted points system, both seasons work out as 154 APts. As I said...Yzerman's 88-89 season has a plenty strong argument as the best single season ever. Doesn't make him the best player ever--Brian Leetch scored 100 points, but is not one of the five best offensive defensemen ever.