Guest GordieSid&Ted Report post Posted July 26, 2007 Yzerman with 155, not Lemieux with 199, won the Pearson that season. That would suggest that Yzerman's 88-89 season would beat any season from Gretzky below 200 points by the mere fact that Lemieux was better all-around than Gretzky. When you then consider that Lemieux's 199 points was equivalent to Gretzky's 212 when you consider the differing levels of offense between the early and late 90s; using Total Hockey's adjusted points system, both seasons work out as 154 APts. As I said...Yzerman's 88-89 season has a plenty strong argument as the best single season ever. Doesn't make him the best player ever--Brian Leetch scored 100 points, but is not one of the five best offensive defensemen ever. So Yzerman won the Pearson, ok. Lemieux finished ahead of Yzerman in voting for the Hart trophy. Gretz won the Hart meaning Yzerman finished 3rd. What's my point? My point is that winning the Pearson or the Hart is hardly enough support for your position. Every year somebody wins the Hart and somebody wins the Pearson and more often than not there's debate over who that should be. Its not so clear cut is my point. On that premise alone the rest of your theories are pretty much moot. But for argument's sake. Eva, do you just make this s*** up. Who says Lemieux's 199 is equivalent to Gretzky's 212? How do you just spew that out as if its some sort of fact. The last time I checked 7 did not equal 10, an A- did not equal and A and 199 does not equal 212. Total Hockey's adjusted points system? You're starting to frighten me dude. You need to live in the real world and not the hypothetical, what if, coulda, woulda, shoulda world. We can argue this all day long but in the end i'm using hard numbers and you're using guesstimates, estimates, hypotheticals, what ifs and every other non-factual thing to support your argument. I don't mean to be an ass (well, actually I do because I sort of am) but i'm guessing you're profession isn't scientist. Maybe fortune teller? j/k I like to kid, please don't take it too seriously Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted July 26, 2007 So Yzerman won the Pearson, ok. Lemieux finished ahead of Yzerman in voting for the Hart trophy. Gretz won the Hart meaning Yzerman finished 3rd. What's my point? My point is that winning the Pearson or the Hart is hardly enough support for your position. Every year somebody wins the Hart and somebody wins the Pearson and more often than not there's debate over who that should be. Its not so clear cut is my point. On that premise alone the rest of your theories are pretty much moot. But for argument's sake. Eva, do you just make this s*** up. Who says Lemieux's 199 is equivalent to Gretzky's 212? How do you just spew that out as if its some sort of fact. The last time I checked 7 did not equal 10, an A- did not equal and A and 199 does not equal 212. Total Hockey's adjusted points system? You're starting to frighten me dude. You need to live in the real world and not the hypothetical, what if, coulda, woulda, shoulda world. We can argue this all day long but in the end i'm using hard numbers and you're using guesstimates, estimates, hypotheticals, what ifs and every other non-factual thing to support your argument. I don't mean to be an ass (well, actually I do because I sort of am) but i'm guessing you're profession isn't scientist. Maybe fortune teller? j/k I like to kid, please don't take it too seriously TH's adjusted points system is the most reliable cross-season comparison tool I've ever seen....it's basically a mathematic formula that compares the scoring pace (goals and assists) of an individual season against the NHL's historical average, and adjusts the player's season totals by that ratio. It's far from conclusive, but with the up and down scoring across the league's history, it's as good a comparison tool as straight points. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeeRYCE 2 Report post Posted July 26, 2007 Brian Leetch scored 100 points, but is not one of the five best offensive defensemen ever.[/font] I would consider Brian Leetch one of the five best offensive defensemen ever. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest GordieSid&Ted Report post Posted July 26, 2007 TH's adjusted points system is the most reliable cross-season comparison tool I've ever seen....it's basically a mathematic formula that compares the scoring pace (goals and assists) of an individual season against the NHL's historical average, and adjusts the player's season totals by that ratio. It's far from conclusive, but with the up and down scoring across the league's history, it's as good a comparison tool as straight points. It's official Eva, you're an even bigger nerd than I am Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
liloz 0 Report post Posted July 26, 2007 I dont care if this sounds bias. But if we're going by numbers then hands down no one can touch Gretzky. But as in an all around player I put Mr. Steve Yzerman number 1 on my list. Wayne's scoring ability is second to none. But what Yzerman could do defensively was unmatched. Super Mario is also up there with Stevie. But Yzerman could do anything. Scoring goals, perfect passing, a God at faceoffs, extremely defensively sound, and arguably the greatest leader in sports history. Not to mention a Conn Smythe winner and a 3 time Stanley Cup Champion. If there was a fantasy draft and I could pick any player all-time, Yzerman would be my number 1 pick. You took the words right out of my mouth. Word for word exactly what I would say. Yzerman is #1 in my book! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
eva unit zero 271 Report post Posted July 27, 2007 It's official Eva, you're an even bigger nerd than I am Never denied it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
handyandy_101 0 Report post Posted July 27, 2007 i believe that when all is said and done in nick lidstroms career, hell slide into the alltime top 10 ahead of ray bourque, i think he just belongs there.....as for yzerman, 4 or 5 behing gretz orr howe richard Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeeRYCE 2 Report post Posted July 27, 2007 i believe that when all is said and done in nick lidstroms career, hell slide into the alltime top 10 ahead of ray bourque, i think he just belongs there There's no denying that. 3 more good seasons would put him up there, Norris wins or not. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SweWings 45 Report post Posted July 27, 2007 There's no denying that. 3 more good seasons would put him up there, Norris wins or not. At the very least he'll be considered the best Swedish player, if not European, to play in the NHL. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted July 27, 2007 i believe that when all is said and done in nick lidstroms career, hell slide into the alltime top 10 ahead of ray bourque, i think he just belongs there.....as for yzerman, 4 or 5 behing gretz orr howe richard Who the hell said that Ray Bourque is in the top 10 players of all time? I have him behind Orr and Harvey as best defensemen of all time, and I don't have Harvey in my top 10. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeeRYCE 2 Report post Posted July 27, 2007 At the very least he'll be considered the best Swedish player, if not European, to play in the NHL. I think he has already clinched best Swedish player ever, as far as European goes, it's a very tough call between him and Jagr. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Wings&Beer 0 Report post Posted July 27, 2007 IMO Yzerman is the greatest captain in NHL history, Period. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Spartan2k88 0 Report post Posted July 27, 2007 I think he has already clinched best Swedish player ever, as far as European goes, it's a very tough call between him and Jagr. maybe defenseman...but you're forgetting someone named Peter Forsberg. Possibly one of the best two way hockey players ever Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted July 27, 2007 maybe defenseman...but you're forgetting someone named Peter Forsberg. Possibly one of the best two way hockey players ever Forsberg has had too many injuries in his prime, and has never scored more than 30 goals in a season. He's strictly a set-up man, therefore he is not ranked higher than Jagr. This conversation would be further complicated if we were just talking about best European players ever, but since we're only talking about their NHL careers, Lidstrom is the best with 5 Norris trophies, 3 Cups, Conn Smythe, and unparalleled consistency and durability (knock on wood) throughout his career. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BeeRYCE 2 Report post Posted July 27, 2007 maybe defenseman...but you're forgetting someone named Peter Forsberg. Possibly one of the best two way hockey players ever Forsberg's 700 games, and being injured notoriously really sets the decline. A consistant player like Lidstrom should get far more recognition than Forsberg. Forsberg is good though, probably the second best Swede (disputable with Sundin), and perhaps a top 5 European ever. I wouldn't say better than Lids though. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted July 27, 2007 maybe defenseman...but you're forgetting someone named Peter Forsberg. Possibly one of the best two way hockey players ever Just because Gary and Bill said it, doesn't make it true. Pete is a guy that routinely averaged well below a single minute of PK time/game. If he were that good defensively he'd be used on the kill. As far as two-way play goes he's not even in the same ballpark as Fedorov or Yzerman. Oh, and Nick is a better two-way player than Forsberg. Remember defensemen can be two-way as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
