Niedermayer to return next season?

[Heaton 1]

Lidstrom > Neidermayer

Rafalski < Pronger

Kronwall < Beauchemin

*break out Lilja* << Schneider

Chelios = O'Donnell

Lebda/Quincey/Meech < Hnidy

Now, even if you add lets say, Markov to the equation...it still doesnt change the results.

If we're going by pure defense and not the whole package of offense and defense I'd rank it like this:

Lidstrrom > Niedermayer

Rafalski < Pronger

Kronwall < Beauchemin

Lilja = Schneider (remember, defense only)

Chelios > O'Donnell

Lebda/Quincey/Meech = Hnidy, I can't think of a plausible argument to really say that Hnidy is that much better than either 3.

Sean O'Donnell was protected all year by Pronger and Niedermayer, his previous spots weren't nearly as rosey as his short stint in Anaheim.

[Guest DetroitIan]

Lilja = Schneider (remember, defense only)

Even with defense. There is no way Lilja is, and will ever be, equal to Mathieu Schneider. No matter what aspect of the game we're talking about. Schneider > Lilja, every day of the week. IMO.

[Heaton 1]

Even with defense. There is no way Lilja is, and will ever be, equal to Mathieu Schneider. No matter what aspect of the game we're talking about. Schneider > Lilja, every day of the week. IMO.

If that's the case, why was Lilja playing over 3mins of PK per game during the playoffs while Schneider was only playing like 40 seconds? Schneider is not known for his defense, Lilja is a far more steadier defensive defensemen and a defensive minded coach like Babcock knew that from day 1.

Even during the regular season Schneider was playing 1:41 of PK per game, obviously when the stakes go up Schneider isn't used on the PK while Lilja is.

Lilja is not the better overall defensemen, I'm not saying that, but in a defensive situation I'd rather have Lilja out there than Schneider.

[Echolalia 2,961]

I agree with some of your points. But I disagree with some also. I would say the Wings defense is definitely atleast somewhat close to the Ducks(with Niedermayer that is). But it's not quite as good. It's right up there with the best, but not as good as the Ducks would be after adding Schneider to their core, AND keeping Neidermayer.

The margin of difference between our defense and the Ducks, imo, is on such a small margin that there won't be any noticeable differences on the ice. Someone could scrape up an argument for either side.

And yeah I definitely agree that the loss of Bert and Calder isnt back-breaking by any means.

nice pun

But to say everything is ok, because we're replacing them with young, inexperienced, unproven players, is just going too far. And I've heard good things about Grigs as well. But to say he has the stuff of a potential legend is just crazy. The kid hasnt played one NHL game yet, lets not start calling him the next Crosby or Ovechkin just yet.

I agree wholeheartedly that its too soon to be giving our young stars the trophies just yet and also that we need a top 6 forward, but I have to disagree with you in that we can replace Calder, Bertuzzi, and Lang for the most part with younger guys. Hudler had proven to us that he can score given the right ice time, and Franzen (although hardly a reliable scorer) is continuing to look more comfortable deep in the opposition's zone. As much as I hate Sammuelson, I believe he will pick up the slack, and Grigorenko will be fighting for a spot on the lineup, so its in his best interest to fulfill his scouting reports in that he is a goal-scorer and play-maker. Which, by the way, on a Russian prospects site, Grigs name was rated up there with Malkin's.

Lilja is not the better overall defensemen, I'm not saying that, but in a defensive situation I'd rather have Lilja out there than Schneider.

You're kidding, right? Wasn't it Lilja that turned the puck over to Selanne of all people, right in front of our net, of all places, in an overtime Western Conference Finals game, of all times? He may've cost us the Stanley Cup

[edicius 3,269]

Question...what's the Ducks' salary amount 1) if Niedermayer returns and 2) if Niedermayer retires?

I seem to recall Burke imposing a $42M cap for the Ducks and if Niedermayer returns, I'd guess that self-imposed cap goes out the window.

[Heaton 1]

You're kidding, right? Wasn't it Lilja that turned the puck over to Selanne of all people, right in front of our net, of all places, in an overtime Western Conference Finals game, of all times? He may've cost us the Stanley Cup

Wasn't it Lidstrom who made a bad pinch in the game 3 of the Calgary series which led to Iginla scoring the eventual game winning goal? The only difference is that the Wings ended up winning that series.

Bad plays happen, that game shouldn't have even gone to overtime but Franzen's bad clear and a fluky flutter shot off of Lidstrom's stick made it possible. Placing the sole blame on Lilja is irresponsible.

One bad play doesn't erase the facts, Lilja is better at defense than Schneider is. As long as it's a half ice game, Lilja is better, but the whole package? Schneider is better.

[Echolalia 2,961]

Wasn't it Lidstrom who made a bad pinch in the game 3 of the Calgary series which led to Iginla scoring the eventual game winning goal? The only difference is that the Wings ended up winning that series.

Bad plays happen, that game shouldn't have even gone to overtime but Franzen's bad clear and a fluky flutter shot off of Lidstrom's stick made it possible. Placing the sole blame on Lilja is irresponsible.

One bad play doesn't erase the facts, Lilja is better at defense than Schneider is. As long as it's a half ice game, Lilja is better, but the whole package? Schneider is better.

The difference between Lidstrom and Lilja is the plethora of Norris trophies, Stanley cups, the 'C' on his jersey and a handful of other awards, and even with his bad pinch, Lidstrom's game isn't whats in question. Lilja is not as good a defensman as Schneider. Schneider had twice the +/- that Lilja had, and if I recall correctly, Lilja didn't even play the entire season as a full-time Wing, although I may be mistaken.

Lilja was the forum whipping boy last year for much of the regular season, and for good reason. Yes he has improved (I was quite shocked for the most part at his play in the postseason), but its insane to consider him a better defensive player than Schneider.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Echolalia

[YoungGuns1340 1]

What did Bertuzzi do for the PP last year in Det?

One PP line does not make their PP the best in the league, what does their second unit look like?

Penner and Teemu gone to me is a huge subtraction from that team that they have not replaced.

I did not miss your point, I just think you are overestimating them.

That team will have less offense than most of the teams in the West. San Jose has a just as good a shot at the cup as Anaheim, IMO.

Beauchmin is not better than Krowall when healthy, again IMO.

And there offense is still short one forward, they have 1.3mil left in the cap (with Neids) and need another forward. Granted it doesn't have to be top 6 like Det needs, however if they sign a 3rd liner at a .5-1 mil price tag and have an injury to any one top 6 forward or top 4 d-men they are screwed. This is not a very deep team. Seeing as they are still one forward short.

I will give you they have a great Defense, I never argued that, in fact the only point I made was that Pronger was not a Norris worthy D man, which you some how took as I don't think they have the best shot at the cup.

I don't think they have the best shot at the cup, lucky guess on your part (or you are in my head, GET OUT!!) because not only did Teemu get 96 points for them last year he also played 82 games.

Who will replace his points, and don't tell me that the D will be so good they don't need to make it up.

Sorry Opie, but your cred is falling by the second. Beauchemin not better than Kronwall??? Hes more phyiscal, more positionally sound, and better offensively. Not to mention he can eat up 30 minutes a game. When has Kronner ever done that at the NHL level??

And where is the offense going to come from? Again, what?? MacDonald is capable of an 80 point season, and Getzlafs wrister alone is bordering on Sakic-like. Getzlaf is easily a 30 goal scorer this year if not more, and at least 60 points. Then you have Perry and Kunitz who are capable 20 goal scorers and Bert who could turn out to be the same. Not to mention the up and coming Ryan and the awesome 3rd line that they have to round out the cast. At this point in time, Anaheim has 5 bona fid top sixers to Detroits 3. Im not sure Id take Anaheims offense over Detroits at this point, simply because of the Euro Twins, but that issue is neither here nor there simply because of that defense. Their offense is going to thrive on the security and outlet passes that their studded defense will provide.

Question...what's the Ducks' salary amount 1) if Niedermayer returns and 2) if Niedermayer retires?

I seem to recall Burke imposing a $42M cap for the Ducks and if Niedermayer returns, I'd guess that self-imposed cap goes out the window.

Pretty sure the self-imposed cap was put on by the Ducks' owners. WITH Niedermayer, they have about 48.924 according to nhlnumbers.com so if he retires his salary is simply deducted - 42.174

[sticknmove 0]

this thread is funny, i am not going to get involved i am just going to enjoy. Come on Opie make another agrument, pleasssssssssssse

[ben_usmc 253]

seriously not that I'm saying Lilja will be amazing or anything, man last year all year long my roomate laughed at how much I couldn't stand Liljas horrible playing. But during the playoffs give the man some credit he was playing great, if he could do that for a whole season I would take him not a problem. Also our young line is unproven agreed but to think that Flip won't do better with top 6 min then Lang did then you are crazy. Plus imagine Hudler with more min his offensive production was great for his time on the ice. I'm not saying that they are the answers but I would say we have improved because we cut a lot of dead weight. Bert as much as I liked him didn't do a thing for us except waste the limited min. he had. Lang to his credit had some very important goals but was lazy and lacked D. Calder just fizzled out, so.....

[eva unit zero 271]

Sorry Opie, but your cred is falling by the second. Beauchemin not better than Kronwall??? Hes more phyiscal, more positionally sound, and better offensively. Not to mention he can eat up 30 minutes a game. When has Kronner ever done that at the NHL level??

And where is the offense going to come from? Again, what?? MacDonald is capable of an 80 point season, and Getzlafs wrister alone is bordering on Sakic-like. Getzlaf is easily a 30 goal scorer this year if not more, and at least 60 points. Then you have Perry and Kunitz who are capable 20 goal scorers and Bert who could turn out to be the same. Not to mention the up and coming Ryan and the awesome 3rd line that they have to round out the cast. At this point in time, Anaheim has 5 bona fid top sixers to Detroits 3. Im not sure Id take Anaheims offense over Detroits at this point, simply because of the Euro Twins, but that issue is neither here nor there simply because of that defense. Their offense is going to thrive on the security and outlet passes that their studded defense will provide.

Pretty sure the self-imposed cap was put on by the Ducks' owners. WITH Niedermayer, they have about 48.924 according to nhlnumbers.com so if he retires his salary is simply deducted - 42.174

nhlnumbers.com is not factoring Ryan in...with Ryan (and Niedermayer), the Ducks have 12 forwards, 8 D, and 2 goalies for about 50.8m, or about 500k over the cap. Todd Marchant waived and replaced with a minimum salary plugger anyone?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I am sorry for my "homer" comments but please tell me what Pronger has ever done without a big name as a D pairing.

While Lids, and Neidermayer have been norris candidates with veritable nobodies next to them. (In the past not last year)

I honestly do not see the attraction to Pronger, he is a very good player, notice my point of contention was him being a Norris Candidate, but he was not the missing piece to that team, Neidermayer was.

Put an ECHL team in front of those 4 and you have a last place team, you may have been exaggerating, but you need offense and forwards that can play D. They lost 2 vital pieces to there offense and replaced one of them with a guy who has had a recent history of having trouble getting on the ice, and his glory days are a ways away from him.

I also think you are overrating Beaucheim, and overrating Schneids D ability.

He was a great fit in Det, because he was allowed to be an offesive defenseman. Again a very very good player, but I would say Detroit's D is a healthy Kronwall or a Danny Markov signing, or Lilja having a great year away from being better.

Lids > Neids

Ralf > Schneids

Cheli < Pronger

Markov > Beauchemin or

Healthy Kronwall > Beauchemin or

Lilja Break out year > Beauchemin *(Break out year is imperative here)

Also that pp will miss Teemu badly!!!

again all IMO

Oilers add Pronger, they go to the finals and almost win the Stanley Cup

Ducks add Pronger, they win the Stanley Cup

There's a reason why any who's who of hockey list has Pronger right there behind Lidstrom as one of the best in the league. Defensively he is a beast, he has an accurate, hard shot on the PP and frankly, had he not been injured last season he was on a better pace than Lidstrom as far as points and maybe would've won the Norris.

You may not think he's one of the elite but the rest of the hockey world does so just take their word for it.

[Opie 308]

OK I have conceded the Defense will be great! (In small words for people who keep trying to say things about their D "OMG Their D is the bestest ever!!!!! I <3 pronger) (please take as sarcasm!)

Also I am not saying they will be cellar dwellars, I am just saying they are not the cup favorite.

Moving on!

Young Guns,

They had all of those people last year, and Selanne still had to have an incredible season. He scored 96 freaking points, and they have not replaced him with anyone. They finished 3 points ahead of SJ, that meaning they barely won the division over a SJ team that has not changed much at all and still has one of the top 2 forwards in the game, and Marleau is no slouch either, regardless of what he did in this years playoff.

SJ's top 2 forwards are better than any forward on the ANA team. And to top it all off SJ has 13 mil to spend, and ANA has 1.3 mil, notice the difference, I guess decimals are important. (according to nhlnumbers, I am sure you are right about Ryan, Eva, but I am going with something I can prove)

Those top 4 D will work at trying to shut down the top two lines, however as we have seen even the invincible one himself (lids) can be on the ice for goals. And also no dfensive pairing in the league can play the entire defensive zone, the forwards will have to be very good in their own zone, something Penner and Teemu brought to the table.

Because they have the best top 4 d-men in the world doesn't mean they are the favorites to win the cup.

The west has a lot of scoring, it is highly unlikely that the Ducks are going to go through the season with 20-30 shutouts, they will have to score and without Teemu to take a teams top defensive line and pairing MacDonald is screwed.

This team has some serious depth issues.

They lost their #1 and #2 goal scorers, #1 and #5 PPG scorers, #1 PPA,

I could keep going but I have already pointed this out. The only argument you have is a hypothetical that says, Getzlaf given more minutes will score 30 goals. And did you just compare him to Joe Sakic, please let me see this guy use that "Twisted Wrister" to net himself 40+ goals before we compare him to on of the top 10 players of the last 30-40 yeers.

Bertuzzi:

Seriously folks stop living in the past, all we know about this guy is he has a lot of baggage, a bad back, and doesn't go to the net anymore. Yet some how he is going to walk through the doors in Ana and be a guy who can create his own shot. What did he produce with Lang last year? Lang would probably be the #1 or #2 center on that team. Do you honestly think Bertuzzi can score 30 goals without Naslund or Morrison.

Now back to Pronger:

He single handily changed Edmonton and Anaheim is that what you are saying.

In 03-04 Edmonton was 6 points out of the Playoffs, in 05-06 they added Pronger and added 6 points to earn the 8th spot in the playoffs, they beat a lethargic Det. There have been many threads on this board about Det losing that series due to Manny, Pavel, etc.

Yes he helped them not denying that. But it is not like he went to a cellar dwellar and made them a contender, he took a ninth seed to an eighth seed. And as we all know anything can happen in the playoffs.

ANA, Neidermayer is the reason they one that cup, did Pronger help, damn straight he did. I am not arguing that he isn't one of the top 5 defenseman in the world, I am arguing that he isn't a norris trophy defenseman.

IMO the norris trophy finalist were:

1. Lids

2. Neids

No one else had that great of a year. Did Pronger play his ass off, yes but if you are the second best defenseman on your team how can you qualify for the best in the league? That is my argument about Pronger, I don't think he sucks, I think his reputation and the fact that he has a great partner out there got him in the voting.

All this team did was add Schneider (if Neids returns) and Bertuzzi, they lost Teemu and Penner. Comparably if the wings Added Rafalski and kept Schnieds and Bertuzzi, but lost Homer and Dats(or Z) are they the cup favorites, I say NO.

this thread is funny, i am not going to get involved i am just going to enjoy. Come on Opie make another agrument, pleasssssssssssse

I will because as I said in my other post, this is my favorite thread in a long long time, because people are debating an idea not calling people names and arguing. People have actually taken other people's opinions into consideration when posting back. I will keep talking about this as long as people are replying. This is what the board used to be like, except it was every thread!!!

[Opie 308]

And where is the offense going to come from? Again, what?? MacDonald is capable of an 80 point season, and Getzlafs wrister alone is bordering on Sakic-like. Getzlaf is easily a 30 goal scorer this year if not more, and at least 60 points. Then you have Perry and Kunitz who are capable 20 goal scorers and Bert who could turn out to be the same. Not to mention the up and coming Ryan and the awesome 3rd line that they have to round out the cast. At this point in time, Anaheim has 5 bona fid top sixers to Detroits 3. Im not sure Id take Anaheims offense over Detroits at this point, simply because of the Euro Twins, but that issue is neither here nor there simply because of that defense. Their offense is going to thrive on the security and outlet passes that their studded defense will provide.

I never said Det was the favorite either I was comparing Det and Ana because to me they are both a step behind SJ.

Further more Ana does not have 5 bona fide top 6 forwards, they lost 2 of their top 6 forwards, so at best they have 4 top 6 forwards remaining. I would also Argue that Detroit also has 4, Samuelson whether you like him or not has proven he can play top 6 minutes. And if you are counting Perry and/or Moen as a top 6 that means that Detroit has Sammy, Hudler, Draper, Cleary, Dats, Z, and Homer that are bona fide top 6 as well. They all had as good as if not better years than Moen and Perry.

Plus how is my cred falling, am I not making legitimate logical arguments. I am not just running around saying so and so is better because I think so, I am backing up my point.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Opie

[egroen 384]

If I were Burke looking at Niedermayer coming back I would be shopping Schneider for a forward. Replacing Niedermayer so quickly may come back to bite him in the ass.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

I never said Det was the favorite either I was comparing Det and Ana because to me they are both a step behind SJ.

Further more Ana does not have 5 bona fide top 6 forwards, they lost 2 of their top 6 forwards, so at best they have 4 top 6 forwards remaining. I would also Argue that Detroit also has 4, Samuelson whether you like him or not has proven he can play top 6 minutes. And if you are counting Perry and/or Moen as a top 6 that means that Detroit has Sammy, Hudler, Draper, Cleary, Dats, Z, and Homer that are bona fide top 6 as well. They all had as good as if not better years than Moen and Perry.

Plus how is my cred falling, am I not making legitimate logical arguments. I am not just running around saying so and so is better because I think so, I am backing up my point.

All Samuelsson has proven is that Babcock is willing to give him top 6 minutes, and not that he can do anything with it. As for Draper and Hudler, neither is a top 6 player. Drapes is a great checking-line center, and Hudler has been Babcock's scrub up to this point of his career, so we've never seen him get any minutes. Even though Hank and Pavel are better than any forward Anaheim has except for Selanne, Anaheim's forwards are much better when you look at all the forward lines combined

[Opie 308]

The forwards are not ranked or compared just wrote them as they came to me or where they were on the stats sheet.

Ana top 6

MacDonald

Bert

Perry

Getzlaf

Kunitz

Neidermayer

Det top 6

Zetterberg

Datsyuk

Homer

Samuelson

Cleary

Hudler

I left Draper on the third line and didn't include Igor because none of us know what he will bring. Still the wings top 6 (which is hardly a powerful top 6) has better numbers than the Ana forwards other than MacDonald. To go further Filpula and Franzen had similar numbers last year to R. Neidermayer, Pahlsson, and Perry, and those numbers were put up with Selanne around who was one of their best finishers and set up men and took on the top defensive lines and pairings.

Edited August 29, 2007 by Opie

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

The forwards are not ranked or compared just wrote them as they came to me or where they were on the stats sheet.

Ana top 6

MacDonald

Bert

Perry

Getzlaf

Kunitz

Neidermayer

Det top 6

Zetterberg

Datsyuk

Homer

Samuelson

Cleary

Hudler

I left Draper on the third line and didn't include Igor because none of us know what he will bring. Still the wings top 6 (which is hardly a powerful top 6) has better numbers than the Ana forwards other than MacDonald. To go further Filpula and Franzen had similar numbers last year to R. Neidermayer, Pahlsson, and Perry, and those numbers were put up with Selanne around who was one of their best finishers and set up men and took on the top defensive lines and pairings.

Don't forget, though, that the potential for Getzlaf or Perry's growth is much higher than that of Hudler, Samuelsson, or Cleary's. So last year's stats might not mean much when assessing the present.

[Opie 308]

Very true point*, a sophomore slump (I guess sophomore is a bad word) could happen too.

*- I would remove Hudler from that list, I think his potential is about the same as Perry and Getzlaf. Look what he did in limited minutes, put him next to Datsyuk with that shot he has and you could easily see a 30 goal scorer.

I honestly put Ana as the #4 seed in the thread about ranking next years final standings. I think they are going to be very good, young, physical, and have potentially the best D in the league (with Neids back). But I still don't see them being them being the odds on favorite at the cup with that little bit of offense.

Mainly because those guys you mentioned had the benefit of having another line on the ice that took up the other teams top d lines and pairings.

Plus one major injury and that team is in deep deep trouble. Bobby (Bobby right?) Ryan is supposed to be as good if not better than Penner, that like Igor, remains to be seen. But if Ryan is a full time roster guy, who comes up after that. I am not a Ducks fan, but I watched and followed the Portland Pirates, and the Ducks are not very deep, and have virtually no money left before the cap ceiling.

Again I have to say, this discussion/ thread is ******* awesome, thanks to everyone posting in this for keeping this A) on topic B) civil!!!!

[Aeothe Kaear 0]

[has a nice chuckle at the thought of Rob Neidermayer being a top six forward]

[KrazyGangsta 79]

KENNYYYYYYY PLZZZ send our 1st rounder and 2nd round this year and the ones for next year and hudler for kipper ...

Kipper + any wings team > any anaheim team

[eva unit zero 271]

The forwards are not ranked or compared just wrote them as they came to me or where they were on the stats sheet.

Ana top 6

MacDonald

Bert

Perry

Getzlaf

Kunitz

Neidermayer

Det top 6

Zetterberg

Datsyuk

Homer

Samuelson

Cleary

Hudler

Based on points per game, Anaheim's top six forwards are McDonald, Kunitz, Bertuzzi, Getzlaf, Perry, and Marchant. This compares to Detroit's Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Holmstrom, Samuelsson, Cleary, and Franzen. Total PPG for each unit? Anaheim 4.08 PPG, Detroit 4.49 PPG. Even if you replace Cleary with Hudler to get an accurate representation of who will be on the top two lines, Detroit still scores the win with a 4.26 PPG from the top six.

[FinRedWing 172]

If Neids returns the Ducks are hands down the best team in hockey, both on paper and in reality. Not saying that they will win for sure, but I am saying they are presason favorites.

Thank God they already won the Stanley Cup last year - They won't have the hunger to do it again.

Edited August 31, 2007 by FinRedWing

[Opie 308]

OK so now lets take a look at this from the POV that he is retiring.

They still have a formidable Defense, arguably still one of the leagues best all-around D's.

Schneider will not help too much on the defensive side of things but helps their pp greatly. Now you have two proven pp qb's in Pronger and Schneider.

However the offense is greatly diminished.

Do the ducks spend the 6.75 they had tied up in Neidermayer or do they stick to the self imposed cap?

Are the Ducks now players in the Markov sweepstakes?

What impact does this have on Selanne?

Do the Ducks now beg Selanne to come back?

Who is out there that can fill their offensive Void?

Do the ducks make a play at Forsberg or give Feds another shot?

Do they have enough young talent to make a trade and not deplete the club?

Discuss-

This team is by far a lot worse than they were last year, especially if they do not sign a top 6 forward. After thinking about it they need a top 6 worse than the wings do. They have no proven top 6 scorers besides MacDonald and Bertuzzi and I am not so sure Bertuzzi has top 6 numbers in him unless he can go back to be a physical force on the ice or he gets a play making center. At least Det still has Z-Dats-Homer all proven guys that can get it done in reg season and post season.

BTW if Pronger gets a Norris nod this year I would have no problem with it unless some how he ends up not being their #1 d-man again, but I don't see anyone on that roster being better than him. And if they make it to the finals again and he is one of the driving reasons, I will take back all that I said about him, but he has to prove it to me. Like I said before he took a mediocre Oil team and made them a little better version of mediocre and they had a great playoff run, and the Ducks last year was more a reflection of Niedermayer.

[eva unit zero 271]

Beauchemin is so much better than Markov and a healthy Kronwall its not even funny.

I have to disagree. I think Beauchemin is overrated big time because the majority of his time has been spent with Niedermayer and Pronger the past couple seasons. Here's what Beauchemin's TSN scouting report looked like when the Ducks acquired him:

Scouting Report

Assets: Usually keeps the game simple from the back end. Uses his 6-0, 206-pound body efficiently. Is a solid team player.

Flaws: Doesn't own top-end offensive skills. Is a little short by NHL standards. May have trouble getting noticed by big-league scouts.

Career potential: No. 6 or 7 defenseman.

Beauchemin started playing with Niedermayer right away, and what happened? He scored points at a rate he hadn't seen SINCE JUNIORS. I think Beauchemin has a noticable drop off without Scott this season.