McAmmond hurt bad/Concussed

[Guest Yzer19]

I have to say I think of Lids as one of the smartest players and that he knows a s*** load more about hockey than I ever will.

Having said that, if he thinks an enforcer is needed for a safer feeling I can not argue with that kind of statement, not from him.

I didn't think having an enforcer would make players feel that much safer but if Captain Nick Lidstrom thinks it to be the truth than I am sold.

So if Lidstrom said the world was flat would you believe that to be the truth too? I know Lidstrom is The Captain now, but I don't take every thing he says or any other player as gospel. I agree there needs to be a crackdown on headshots, but an enforcer is not the solution. I just think the NHL needs to have more severe punishments for this kind of stuff. Longer penalties and longer suspensions. For those players that making a living off dirty hits and can do nothing else, they should not be allowed to play in the NHL period. I don't care if it's a Wings player or someone from another team. Just because a Wings player does it, it doesn't make it any more right.

[sticknmove 0]

hahaha you are arguing against Lidstroms statement of needing tougher guys to do the policing. Wow, gutsy, you look like a absolute idiot in doing so, but definitly gutsy.

"I don't care if it's a Wings player or someone from another team. Just because a Wings player does it, it doesn't make it any more right."

Well fortunatly no one cares what you think, well at least no one that really matters. So preach on brother.

[Guest Yzer19]

hahaha you are arguing against Lidstroms statement of needing tougher guys to do the policing. Wow, gutsy, you look like a absolute idiot in doing so, but definitly gutsy.

"I don't care if it's a Wings player or someone from another team. Just because a Wings player does it, it doesn't make it any more right."

Well fortunatly no one cares what you think, well at least no one that really matters. So preach on brother.

I think the NHL needs to do it's own policing by having stricter suspensions. Look what happend when tough guy Bertuzzi tried to do the policing for his team. He ended up breaking the guys neck, not intentionally, but it still happend.

[Opie 308]

So if Lidstrom said the world was flat would you believe that to be the truth too? I know Lidstrom is The Captain now, but I don't take every thing he says or any other player as gospel. I agree there needs to be a crackdown on headshots, but an enforcer is not the solution. I just think the NHL needs to have more severe punishments for this kind of stuff. Longer penalties and longer suspensions. For those players that making a living off dirty hits and can do nothing else, they should not be allowed to play in the NHL period. I don't care if it's a Wings player or someone from another team. Just because a Wings player does it, it doesn't make it any more right.

No I wouldn't believe Lidstrom if he said the world was flat, because he is not an Geographer. Now if a world renowned, award winning, universally respected Geographer told me the world was flat than yes, I would have to believe him.

As I said in my post, because of who he his, you know the awards, the accolades, the fact he is one of the best players in the world, and one of the classiest that makes his word and his opinion on this more valid than mine or anyone else's on this board.

I agree the rules need to change, but until they do, If lids says an enforcer is needed or would help I got to believe him. Am I going to sit here and say I know more about the NHL game than Nick Lidstrom, NO WAY IN HELL.

I think part of Lidstrom's comments was the fact that their used to be a real stiff "penalty" for a high hit or a dirty or late hit, and that "penalty" fostered respect.

[Guest Yzer19]

No I wouldn't believe Lidstrom if he said the world was flat, because he is not an Geographer. Now if a world renowned, award winning, universally respected Geographer told me the world was flat than yes, I would have to believe him.

As I said in my post, because of who he his, you know the awards, the accolades, the fact he is one of the best players in the world, and one of the classiest that makes his word and his opinion on this more valid than mine or anyone else's on this board.

I agree the rules need to change, but until they do, If lids says an enforcer is needed or would help I got to believe him. Am I going to sit here and say I know more about the NHL game than Nick Lidstrom, NO WAY IN HELL.

I think part of Lidstrom's comments was the fact that their used to be a real stiff "penalty" for a high hit or a dirty or late hit, and that "penalty" fostered respect.

So if Lidstrom says hockey players should wear figure skating outfits as their hockey uniforms would you believe that to be the truth too. I'm not saying you or I know more about the NHL than Nick Lidstrom or any other player.

With stricter punishments an enforcer is not needed. Players aren't going to like being suspended for long periods of time or paying huge fines or possibly being kicked out of the NHL. No other professional league has an enforcers and they all seem to be doing fine. Hockey doesn't need them either if the punishments are severe enough.

[Hank 0]

I'm not defending Downie. I've seen him play, I don't particularly like his style. However, you have to judge the hit for what it was. Past transgressions shouldn't matter in a case like this. It wasn't as if McAmmond had passed the puck, took 3 strides, and then got hammered.

Just for reference, yes, I have seen some hits thrown by Cam that looked dirty.

Watch Neely about 1:01 into

clip.

I did judge the hit for what it was. After getting creamed by Schubert he flew down 190 feet of ice and hit the first target he could find by propelling his body into MacAmmond. His hit was so violent and ferocious that he, himself, flew into the end boards head-first. Downie was looking for blood after being legally hit at the other end.

And my comments of JR are in regards to how hard some players hit each other. Today's player certainly does try to hit as hard as they possibly can. And that's the problem. These guys CAN let up as they used to back in the day.

I think it's naive to think that they can't. But that's the whole issue. Players today couldn't give a crap about their fellow man or union brother. They're cannibalizing each other. That hit, or the Armstrong hits, or the Torres hit could all have resulted differently. In each case, the player didn't have to barrel into a defenseless player, shoulder to head, the way they did.

But back on topic. I have no idea how you can say this hit is a good legal check. It's clearly a charge. And past transgressions will certainly be looked upon when he's justly suspended.

Yes Hank, level 3's ref 5 yr old billy. FYI I ref PeeWee and Midget AAA and AA. So thats hardly little billy.

Your just pissed now because I proved to you that it should not be a Match penalty,at worst a Game Misconduct.

LOL! How did you prove it! Opie already supplied evidence that it is a match-penatly.

Take your referee-snobbery somewhere else. Nobody except you and your mom care about what level of ref you are.

"Oh Kutcher! You're a level 3 official! Can I drop my panties for you???? You're a hero!!!!" Get a life.

hit is questionable, the point was brought up if a wing laid a hit like that on it would have been deemed "amazing" here on the boards. Like him or not Downie is a gamer who plays with emotion and goes 100% of the time. He was a f*cking treat to watch in Windsor and I expect the same to be true with him in Philly. I am not saying I approve or applaude hits of this nature, but it happens, especially when a guy is trying to do whatever it takes to stand out in order to better his chances of making the league. These things are going to happen, like it or not, it is unfortunate I suppose but when profesional athletes are in the heat of competition some times they don't think the same way as we do, sitting in front of our computers. here are somewhat "questionable" hits by Wings, I dont think any are as severe, but proves the wings are not innocent of never leaving their feet for a hit either:

Kronwall

Kronwall 2

Except this hit had nothing to do with making the team. He got leveled twice and was looking to make someone pay. And he did it by charging down over 150 feet of ice before propelling himself into another player.

They interviewed several current NHL players about the incident and every one of them was against it. But I guess hits like this are praised from the stands where it's nice and safe.

EDIT: stick I wanted to add that I agree with you that in the heat of the battle things like this happen. That's very, very true. My problem is hockey has always encouraged losing your cool. Emotion is great in sports but hockey goes out of it's way to say 'use your emotion in any way that you can'. Someone hits you with a clean check? No problem, stick them in the head!

Football's a pretty violent sport and yet you don't see players fist-fighting after a wideout gets leveled coming across the middle. OL's don't throw down when their quarterback is sacked. Emotions run high in the sport but the league does an excellent job in making sure they keep them in check and use them in legal fashion. The NHL needs to find a way to curtail these types of hits. That Downie hit was pure revenge. If the league suspends someone, like Bill Clement suggests, for 40 games over a hit like this, I guarantee it comes to an end.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Hank

[Opie 308]

At least try an analogy that makes sense.

I understand that stricter sanctions are needed however none are in place.

I have always thought that this was a league wide thing, not the wings need to get tougher. These hits are dirty and something needs to be done about it.

But when Nick Lidstrom says

I think we had a bit more tougher guys in our lineups when I first broke into the league 15 years ago where that kind of took care of itself on the ice,"

it leads me to believe that he thinks enforcers would make things better. I have also said for a while now that the instigator rule needs to be gotten rid of, so the players can police themselves. Yes there have been incidents where that went horribly wrong, but there have been many dirty hits that have gone horribly wrong as well.

You are grasping at straws in order to make your opinion valid, I was one of the staunchest "anti-enforcers" on this board. A player, a very well respected player, comes and says enforcers would help the problem. I have to agree. He is not saying it is the only solution he is just saying that he thinks it would help. I am sure he would also support a rule change, however at this point in time in the season no rule changes can be made.

[Hank 0]

At least try an analogy that makes sense.

I understand that stricter sanctions are needed however none are in place.

I have always thought that this was a league wide thing, not the wings need to get tougher. These hits are dirty and something needs to be done about it.

But when Nick Lidstrom says

it leads me to believe that he thinks enforcers would make things better. I have also said for a while now that the instigator rule needs to be gotten rid of, so the players can police themselves. Yes there have been incidents where that went horribly wrong, but there have been many dirty hits that have gone horribly wrong as well.

You are grasping at straws in order to make your opinion valid, I was one of the staunchest "anti-enforcers" on this board. A player, a very well respected player, comes and says enforcers would help the problem. I have to agree. He is not saying it is the only solution he is just saying that he thinks it would help. I am sure he would also support a rule change, however at this point in time in the season no rule changes can be made.

Totally agree. But it's a shame that the league is so impotent that it asks the players to police themselves. And then they get upset when something happens like the Bertuzzi-Moore incident.

But I still think even with a team of nothing but enforcers, Steve Downie still makes this hit. He has no brain.

At least we can all agree on this.

Van Damme is a fantastic dancer!

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Five feet off the ice when he hit McAmmond?! Have you watched the clip? You probably should. Downie was, at most, 6 inches off the ice at impact.

Hmmm.....

Good lord bring home, why not be the Nazi word police. You obviously could not grasp the point I was making in that Downie launched off the ice surface to hit Mac. How the f*** else would you be able to take a still photo that captures Downie that high off of and parallel to the ice surface? HE ******* LAUNCHED! Whereas Markov didn't? So again I ask, how the hell can you consider either hit to be similar? Oh wait, I know how, you're grasping at straws to defend an ever weakening position based solely on poor observation on your part.

Cheers!

PS: For the love of god does anybody have the ability to copy video or take stills of the Downie hit. I went back and stopped the video in a couple of spots. Stop the clip just prior to impact and you'll see Downie a good 4-5 inches off the ice prior to impact. You'll also see his elbow/forearm will be the 1st thing to make contact with Mac head. All one need do is stop the video and then do the same thing with the Markov clp to get BringHome to STFU and stop comparing 2 completely dissimilar hits.

Edited September 27, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[Guest Yzer19]

Totally agree. But it's a shame that the league is so impotent that it asks the players to police themselves. And then they get upset when something happens like the Bertuzzi-Moore incident.

But I still think even with a team of nothing but enforcers, Steve Downie still makes this hit. He has no brain.

At least we can all agree on this.

Van Damme is a fantastic dancer!

I just think an enforcer isn't going to make that much of a difference. Do you really think some selfish, punk kid like Downie is going to care about getting his arse kicked after making a hit if he makes an NHL team. I highly doubt it. Him and others will keep doing it just to make the NHL team. These guys only care about making the team and that's it. They'll do whatever it takes. Think about it, would you care if some enforcer kicked your arse, if you ended up making the Wings team? I doubt it. That's why the league needs stricter punishments. Players like Downey shouldn't be allowed to play in the NHL. They shouldn't be able to make the team that way.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Yzer19

[toby91_ca 620]

As I said in my post, because of who he his, you know the awards, the accolades, the fact he is one of the best players in the world, and one of the classiest that makes his word and his opinion on this more valid than mine or anyone else's on this board.

While I would certainly respect Lidstrom's opinions, I would not place his opinion as more valid than mine or anyone else's on this board.

[Opie 308]

Yzer that is the way I used to think as well, in fact I have used that same argument 100's of times on this board, just ask GS&T he has got to be tired of reading me post it, however I can not argue with Nick Lidstrom over this point, if a 15 year vet, that knows the game the way he does, is respected the way he is, and is a very very clean player himself (so there is no motivation for him to say this) says he thinks an enforcer would make him feel safer on the ice, and he thinks it would slow this stuff down. I have to agree.

While I would certainly respect Lidstrom's opinions, I would not place his opinion as more valid than mine or anyone else's on this board.

So you are trying to tell me that in matters of the NHL game of Hockey, my opinion and your opinion matter more than Lids.

Sorry, dude that is just ignorance, in it's truest form.

If you were being sarcastic sorry I didn't pick up on it!!!!

[Hank 0]

I just think an enforcer isn't going to make that much of a difference. Do you really think some selfish, punk kid like Downie is going to care about getting his arse kicked after making a hit if he makes an NHL team. I highly doubt it. Him and others will keep doing it just to make the NHL team. These guys only care about making the team and that's it. They'll do whatever it takes. Think about it, would you care if some enforcer kicked your arse, if you ended up making the Wings team? I doubt it. That's why the league needs stricter punishments. Players like Downey shouldn't be allowed to play in the NHL. They shouldn't be able to make the team that way.

Well said.

[toby91_ca 620]

So you are trying to tell me that in matters of the NHL game of Hockey, my opinion and your opinion matter more than Lids.

Sorry, dude that is just ignorance, in it's truest form.

If you were being sarcastic sorry I didn't pick up on it!!!!

I didn't say my opinion mattered more either. My point was that I wouldn't simply blindly accept someone's opinion just because who they were, I would listen to their views and then form my own opinion, which may or may not agree with someone like Lidstrom.

[Opie 308]

Due to his knowledge of the game vs mine, wouldn't that by default make his opinion more valid than mine?

[toby91_ca 620]

Due to his knowledge of the game vs mine, wouldn't that by default make his opinion more valid than mine?

Depends on your point of view. With respect to matters that I have no exposure to, I wouldn't pretend to have an opinion. Just because Lidstrom is a star player in the NHL, I wouldn't, by default, conclude that his knowledge of the game is greater than mine. Not saying it isn't, but I wouldn't default there "just because of who he is." I have played for many years at very high levels and these days I play recreationally and spend a lot of time watching the NHL and other levels of hockey. I think watching games gives you a different perspective than playing and you may be able to pick up things that you wouldn't if you are in the middle of the action.

Again, my only conclusion is that I wouldn't simply bow down and accept someone else's opinion over mine just because of who they are.

[Kutcher 0]

I would agree that the league needs to police its self. Like it always has. the lack of respect is due to the lack of fighting.

And Downie's hit was boarding, not charging. End of story, I'm not arguing it anymore.

His hit was 100 times cleaner than Pronger's elbow in the playoffs and Pronger got 1 game.

[Guest Yzer19]

I would agree that the league needs to police its self. Like it always has. the lack of respect is due to the lack of fighting.

And Downie's hit was boarding, not charging. End of story, I'm not arguing it anymore.

His hit was 100 times cleaner than Pronger's elbow in the playoffs and Pronger got 1 game.

That's 1 playoff game. There is a huge difference between a meaningless regular season game and a playoff game.

[Kutcher 0]

That's 1 playoff game. There is a huge difference between a meaningless regular season game and a playoff game.

Not even. Suspensions should not be determined by what part of the season the player will miss. It should be just x games for this. Not oh hes ****** bag cock sucking Chris Pronger and its playoffs, 1 game is fine. I just get really pissed off when the league f***s up by giving one guy to lenient of a suspension and the other guy a way too harsh one.

[Guest Yzer19]

Not even. Suspensions should not be determined by what part of the season the player will miss. It should be just x games for this. Not oh hes ****** bag cock sucking Chris Pronger and its playoffs, 1 game is fine. I just get really pissed off when the league f***s up by giving one guy to lenient of a suspension and the other guy a way too harsh one.

I agree, but unfortunately, that's the way the NHL works. Look at Claudia Lemieux, he only got 1 playoff game for his cheapshot to Draper.

I'm sorry but a 1 game suspension is not enough, regardless of what Pronger got in the playoffs. This selfish, punk shouldn't even be allowed to play in the NHL.

Edited September 27, 2007 by Yzer19

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

I just think an enforcer isn't going to make that much of a difference. Do you really think some selfish, punk kid like Downie is going to care about getting his arse kicked after making a hit if he makes an NHL team. I highly doubt it. Him and others will keep doing it just to make the NHL team. These guys only care about making the team and that's it. They'll do whatever it takes. Think about it, would you care if some enforcer kicked your arse, if you ended up making the Wings team? I doubt it. That's why the league needs stricter punishments. Players like Downey shouldn't be allowed to play in the NHL. They shouldn't be able to make the team that way.

How much damage did Claude Lemeiux do to anyone after McCarty turned him into a bloody mess?

Obviously, if Downie makes the team (I have my doubts) they won't put him out on the ice unless Boulerice and Eager are out there with him.

Obviously, if he is out there McGratton will try to get at him but will probably be piled on before he can do anything.

Lastly, should McGratton get the chance to fight Downie I think Downie might get the beating of his life. Will it have any effect? Who is to say unless you are Steve Downie.

Personally, he's always been a punk. You can have character and be the captain of your junior teams, etc....You can do all that like a Marty Lapointe did coming up through the ranks. You can do it that way or you can do it the Downie way. And when your reputation precedes you and you've never played a regular season NHL game. You've done it the wrong way.

[Kutcher 0]

I agree, but unfortunately, that's the way the NHL works. Look at Claudia Lemieux, he only got 1 playoff game for his cheapshot to Draper.

I'm sorry but a 1 game suspension is not enough, regardless of what Pronger got in the playoffs. This selfish, punk shouldn't even be allowed to play in the NHL.

I wouldn't go as far as saying that he shouldn't be allowed to play in the NHL. He has an amazing amount of talent. If he wasn't full of talent Team Canada would have left him off of their world junior roster. He needs to be mentored so that he can play in the NHL. But by saying he shouldn't be allowed to play in the NHL is saying that anyone else who has made a cheapshot also should be banned from the league. Guys like Pronger, Chelios, Kronwall, Simon .... the list goes on and on. So if he gets banned for something that has been done countless times, should not those other player be banned aswell?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Not even. Suspensions should not be determined by what part of the season the player will miss. It should be just x games for this. Not oh hes ****** bag cock sucking Chris Pronger and its playoffs, 1 game is fine. I just get really pissed off when the league f***s up by giving one guy to lenient of a suspension and the other guy a way too harsh one.

Still clining to the boarding call? I guess the NHL refs got it wrong. Hell, they were only there and they're only paid professionals. I'm sure your resume is as good.

PS: I haven't seen another soul calling this a boarding. Either the rest of us are wrong, and by that I mean a few hundred thousand people nationwide who've commented on it from blogs to hockeysfuture to LGW, TSN, etc.... or you, the lone gunman are wrong.

Whew, glad I got that off my chest considering you said you were done commenting on this debate. Its cool though, you can't be right about everything all the time. That's my wife's job.

Oh, you are right about the banning comments. That's absurd.

IMO, this issue is bigger than Steve Downie. The league has an opportunity, right now in the preseason to set the tone for headhunting. Don't give Downie a suspension because he's Downie. Forget all that right now. Suspend him for 10 regular season games. Let it be known that you throw that type of hit, get slapped with a Match Penalty, you're sitting 10. I don't care if the guy has a concussion or he gets up and skates away. Take the extent of the injury out of the equation on these types of hits. Its a headhunting hit. Don't compare it to hits from behind or sucker punches to the face. That's an entirely different animal. Stick a 10 gamer on him and much like diving and the instigator (ughhh) rule, make it increasing with each infraction. 20 games next, 40 games next, etcc...It will work itself out.

Look at the NFL, brutal, violent collisions. Those guys have helmets with face shields on them that make our helmets look like paper mache. They don't let you lead with your helmet and they protect their players from direct blows to the head. Why don't we?

Edited September 27, 2007 by GordieSid&Ted

[Kutcher 0]

Still clining to the boarding call? I guess the NHL refs got it wrong. Hell, they were only there and they're only paid professionals. I'm sure your resume is as good.

PS: I haven't seen another soul calling this a boarding. Either the rest of us are wrong, and by that I mean a few hundred thousand people nationwide who've commented on it from blogs to hockeysfuture to LGW, TSN, etc.... or you, the lone gunman are wrong.

Whew, glad I got that off my chest considering you said you were done commenting on this debate. Its cool though, you can't be right about everything all the time. That's my wife's job.

i was just stating my opinion. Just like everyone else.

[Wings_Fan_In_Exile 3]

At least we can all agree on this.

Van Damme is a fantastic dancer!

Yeah man! Yeah!