McAmmond hurt bad/Concussed

[Hank 0]

Just so you know I do know what I'm talking about. I've been an official for 7 years. A match penalty should not be assessed for something like that .. If they feel the need to give a penalty for a clean hit like that, because someone got injured, it should be a 5min major for boarding. Also i watched the game and saw what transpired before the hit took place. So he took a couple hits, big deal. He did what every hockey player does. He got the guys number and got him back.

Not another referee-snob.

And obviously you didn't watch the game because McAmmond wasn't the one who hit him, Schubert and Volchenkov were.

Geez, I'm glad you never officiated any of my games. You're obviously not watching very closely.

[Opie 308]

If you watch the youtube of it you can see from the second camera angle you can see he left his feet before the body contact was made.

There was definite intent to injure, and he will be lucky if they send him down, otherwise some of the Sens guys will be looking for revenge.

That was not a clean hit.

The fact that you think boarding could have been called on that makes me think you were not watching the same clip, for it to be boarding wouldn't McAmmond have to be facing the boards? You tell me I am not an official, just a fan!

[Hank 0]

If you watch the youtube of it you can see from the second camera angle you can see he left his feet before the body contact was made.

There was definite intent to injure, and he will be lucky if they send him down, otherwise some of the Sens guys will be looking for revenge.

That was not a clean hit.

The fact that you think boarding could have been called on that makes me think you were not watching the same clip, for it to be boarding wouldn't McAmmond have to be facing the boards? You tell me I am not an official, just a fan!

Opie, don't bother. It's been proven throughout history of mankind that normal men like you or me, are insignificant specs when compared to the all mighty HOCKEY REFEREE. We are not one to question their wisdom as they are, without a doubt, more wise in the ways of hockey. Afterall they do have to take an exhausting 3 hour seminar to become one. Only the strongest could survive such a grueling journey into Officiandum.

Where it's an obvious infraction to thousands of mere mortals (as captured on video tape) they see otherwise.

Oh please tell us how to run our lives Mr.Hockey Referee. You are obviously so much wiser than us having officiated games with 4 and 5 year olds.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Hank

[Izzy24 44]

Just so you know I do know what I'm talking about. I've been an official for 7 years. A match penalty should not be assessed for something like that .. If they feel the need to give a penalty for a clean hit like that, because someone got injured, it should be a 5min major for boarding. Also i watched the game and saw what transpired before the hit took place. So he took a couple hits, big deal. He did what every hockey player does. He got the guys number and got him back.

Boarding would not be the correct call, and if he had gotten the number of the person who hit hit he would have known it wasn't McAmmond. Anyone can by a striped shirt from a catalog, however that makes you the owner of a striped shirt, not a referee.

edit: grammar

Edited September 26, 2007 by Izzy24

[Opie 308]

Anyone can by a striped shirt from a catalog, however that makes you the owner of a striped shirt, not a referee.

Priceless, I would have paid someone to write that for me, just so I could have been the one to post it!!!!

[Curban915 0]

I almost feel bad for the new guy, but he found out the hard way. * Curban915 gets pen a paper dont piss these guys off*

[Opie 308]

Curban

He ruined his credibility when he said boarding should have been called!

But he did reaffirm my notion that referees have to fail an eye exam before they can get their certs!!

[wingslogo19 281]

Just so you know I do know what I'm talking about. I've been an official for 7 years. A match penalty should not be assessed for something like that .. If they feel the need to give a penalty for a clean hit like that, because someone got injured, it should be a 5min major for boarding. Also i watched the game and saw what transpired before the hit took place. So he took a couple hits, big deal. He did what every hockey player does. He got the guys number and got him back.

You must be a really bad one at that then

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

First off, o0ps for the misspelling of McAmmond, my bad.

However, I think everyone who claims that Downie got his elbows up needs to watch the clip a few more times. His elbows were down. He did leave his feet, barely. That is penalty worthy.

Again, when the clip is actually watched, you can see the puck never got out in front, and from the Downie's position McAmmond still had the puck.

McAmmond had his head down, he should have known better. And yes, this does make a difference. Why? Because had he saw the hit coming, it would not have been nearly as bad. This hit was nowhere near as brutal as the Drake on Lebda hit. Lebda saw it coming and couldn't get out of the way.

Even if Downie had seen McAmmond pass the puck, it still would be questionable to label it a late hit.

It's sad to see McAmmond get hurt, Downie even felt bad. There is no place in hockey for head shots. But until a rule is in place that states something about it, the NHL cannot rightfully suspend players for contact to the head during a hit. It was Downie's shoulder that hit McAmmond's head, just like Armstrong in the playoffs. Watch the clip closely, the only reason Downie gets his elbows up? It's the natural course of motion after a hit.

As far as the hit being premeditated, well, that's just silly. McAmmond wasn't even the guy who hit Downie. Was Downie looking to equal the score? Yes, but that happens over the course of every shift, every game.

Lastly, after watching the clip a few times, I realized something. The original hit on Downie is a boarder line noncall for boarding or even a hit from behind. If that call is made, this thread doesn't exist.

[wingslogo19 281]

First off, o0ps for the misspelling of McAmmond, my bad.

However, I think everyone who claims that Downie got his elbows up needs to watch the clip a few more times. His elbows were down. He did leave his feet, barely. That is penalty worthy.

Again, when the clip is actually watched, you can see the puck never got out in front, and from the Downie's position McAmmond still had the puck.

McAmmond had his head down, he should have known better. And yes, this does make a difference. Why? Because had he saw the hit coming, it would not have been nearly as bad. This hit was nowhere near as brutal as the Drake on Lebda hit. Lebda saw it coming and couldn't get out of the way.

Even if Downie had seen McAmmond pass the puck, it still would be questionable to label it a late hit.

It's sad to see McAmmond get hurt, Downie even felt bad. There is no place in hockey for head shots. But until a rule is in place that states something about it, the NHL cannot rightfully suspend players for contact to the head during a hit. It was Downie's shoulder that hit McAmmond's head, just like Armstrong in the playoffs. Watch the clip closely, the only reason Downie gets his elbows up? It's the natural course of motion after a hit.

As far as the hit being premeditated, well, that's just silly. McAmmond wasn't even the guy who hit Downie. Was Downie looking to equal the score? Yes, but that happens over the course of every shift, every game.

Lastly, after watching the clip a few times, I realized something. The original hit on Downie is a boarder line noncall for boarding or even a hit from behind. If that call is made, this thread doesn't exist.

Downey took a good 5 strides though

[Opie 308]

From what I have read, mainly the MackKenzie article, people who were there said they saw Downie Pick out a target from center ice, then sprinted as hard as he could at MacAmmond, then lept into him. There was intent, I am not saying he deserves 100 games or anything. Give him the same thing Pronger got one game.

But either way I feel it was dirty, and the league needs to do something about all of these dirty hits.

A lot of young guys who are at a marginal skill level see destroying someone as a way to make an NHL club. They get into bad habits and make hits that shouldn't be made.

Also a big difference between the Drake hit and the Downie hit is that, Drake went through the body of Lebda, the Dizziness and daze was from him smashing the back of his head on the boards. Was it dirty yes, why? because it should have been a charge, he left his feet.

But watch Downie's trajectory and then Drakes. Downie goes up at the head of McAmmond, Drake goes through Lebda, he laves his feet but not up at the head of Lebda.

Downie took off like a head seeking missile!

Edited September 26, 2007 by Opie

[wingslogo19 281]

From what I have read, mainly the MackKenzie article, people who were there said they saw Downie Pick out a target from center ice, then sprinted as hard as he could at MacAmmond, then lept into him. There was intent, I am not saying he deserves 100 games or anything. Give him the same thing Pronger got one game.

But either way I feel it was dirty, and the league needs to do something about all of these dirty hits.

A lot of young guys who are at a marginal skill level see destroying someone as a way to make an NHL club. They get into bad habits and make hits that shouldn't be made.

i would say give him 5 games. hits to the head need to be banned. WAY too many guys getting conkys

[Hank 0]

In my opinion it doesn't matter if you left your feet before or after, either way it's a charge.

To fly through the air after the hit, that would mean that you sprung or lunge at someone just before you executed your hit. It indicates that you launched yourself seconds before piling into your opponent. That's just as bad as leaving your feet a stride before you hit. Either way, your intent was to do as much damage as possible by using your body as a bowling ball.

I've seen plenty of beautiful open-ice hits where the hitter didn't leave his feet before or after it was delivered.

A perfect example was Markov's hit on Stoll. He put his shoulder right into his chest and ran over him. You didn't see Markov do a 'Superman' after he nailed him. That's because he didn't try to propel himself into Stoll.

By Downie leaving his feet and flying through the air after the hit took place, it indicates that he did intent to hurt and harm.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Hank

[Opie 308]

In my opinion it doesn't matter if you left your feet before or after, either way it's a charge.

To fly through the air after the hit, that would mean that you sprung or lunge at someone just before you executed your hit. It indicates that you launched yourself seconds before piling into your opponent. That's just as bad as leaving your feet a stride before you hit. Either way, your intent was to do as much damage as possible by using your body as a bowling ball.

I've seen plenty of beautiful open-ice hits where the hitter didn't leave his feet before or after it was delivered.

A perfect example was Markov's hit on Stoll. He put his shoulder right into his chest and ran over him. You didn't see Markov do a 'Superman' after he nailed him. That's because he didn't try to propel himself into Stoll.

By Downie leaving his feet and flying through the air after the hit took place, it indicates that he did intent to hurt and harm.

Great point how many times did Scott Stevens leave his feet?

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Downey took a good 5 strides though

Watch the clip again, his last stride was about at the hash.

In my opinion it doesn't matter if you left your feet before or after, either way it's a charge.

To fly through the air after the hit, that would mean that you sprung or lunge at someone just before you executed your hit. It indicates that you launched yourself seconds before piling into your opponent. That's just as bad as leaving your feet a stride before you hit. Either way, your intent was to do as much damage as possible by using your body as a bowling ball.

I've seen plenty of beautiful open-ice hits where the hitter didn't leave his feet before or after it was delivered.

A perfect example was Markov's hit on Stoll. He put his shoulder right into his chest and ran over him. You didn't see Markov do a 'Superman' after he nailed him. That's because he didn't try to propel himself into Stoll.

By Downie leaving his feet and flying through the air after the hit took place, it indicates that he did intent to hurt and harm.

Let me ask this. Do you think when Markov hit Stoll, he was thinking, "Gee, I could put everything I have into this hit, and make sure Stoll goes down. But I don't want to hurt him. So instead, I'll just take the chance of not making the play and only hit him with 75% of what I've got." No, he wasn't. And if for one second you believe that every big hit dished out isn't intended to do as much damage as possible, then you are just naive my friend. Players in today's NHL are more talented than ever before. This means a few things, on being this. As a player, you cannot afford to let your gaurd down and do anything any less than 110%. What to say if Markov does let up a little that Stoll doesn't sit Markov down, and pass the puck to one of his mates for a goal?

[sticknmove 0]

"All I can say was Nice F-ing hit. Way to finish your chech Steve. Sorry that Dean got hurt but sh*t happens.

A suspension definately is not needed. He only left his feet AFTER he made contact with Dean. Therefore not a charge. His shoulder did hit Deans head , only cause Deans head was down. Lesson here KEEP YOUR HEAD UP!"

Ha ha I like this guy allready. Makes a solid point as well, please sty around, need more posters like you.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Great point how many times did Scott Stevens leave his feet?

How many times did Stevens actually have a huge hit that wasn't in open ice? Stevens was great, possibly the best ever, at timing the open ice hits. Just ask Pauly.

Facts are facts, Downie jumped into the air and delivered a flying elbow to Mac's head. Had he done that to Zetterberg you'd want him banned from the league.

The kid has had a rep since junior of being a prick. And he is. I hope mcgratton caves his face in.

Facts are facts. It's too bad you've got yours wrong. Watch the clip again, please. Downie did not use his elbow.

If this were done to Hank, yes this board would be fill of posts about how player x should be suspended.

However, had Kronwall delivered the hit, theses boards would be full of praise for the hit.

Don't try to play the hometown card, it goes both ways. Take off the homerlenses, and try to be unbias.

[Opie 308]

Bring home,

Isn't there is a difference between playing 110% and playing within the rules, and playing 110% and trying to injure.

You make a conscious effort to leave your feet and inflict serious injury. Not that Markov couldn't have hurt Stoll but the intention was not injury. The intention was hit him and break up the play. Drake and Downie's hits were not done with in the rules, and should be punished. Drake's was a definite charge should have drawn a penalty easily, Downie was trying to prove he is a bad ass, and was going for the head hit.

I know the crap that I will hear back because I am not talking about hockey but here it goes anyway:

In soccer I was able to hit guys and make it look accidental, all you have to do is act like you are jumping for a header and throw a shoulder into a chin. Or as a goalie make it look like you are punching a ball out of the air and punch a guy in the chin!

All decisions I made, and all dirty, and if a ref had called me on it I would have argue and been bulls*** over it.

My point you know what you are doing before you do it!

edit Grammar

Edited September 26, 2007 by Opie

[Kutcher 0]

Yes a grueling 3 hr course to start but to become a certified leve 3 you have to put in time and be reviewed

countless times.

Citing directly from the referee's rule book.

Rule 50 - Boarding

(A) Page 138

A minor penalty or, at the discretion of the referee, a Major penalty and a Game Misconduct penalty, based upon the degree of violence of the impact with the borad, shall be assessed any player who body checks, cross-checks, elbows, charges or trips an opponent in such a manner that causes the opponent to be thrown violently into the boards. If a player is injured a Major penalty and a Game Misconduct penalty must be assessed.

Under that ruling, Steve Downie gets a 5 min Major and a Game misconduct for BOARDING. Not a match penalty. You're welcome for the knowledge, this one is free.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Kutcher

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Bring home,

Isn't there is a difference between playing 110% and playing within the rules, and playing 110% and trying to injure.

You make a conscious effort to leave your feet and inflict serious injury. Not that Markov couldn't have hurt Stoll but the intention was not injury. The intention was hit him and break up the play. Drake and Downie's hits were not done with in the rules, and should be punished. Drake's was a definite charge should have drawn a penalty easily, Downie was trying to prove he is a bad ass, and was going for the head hit.

I know the crap that I will hear back because I am not talking about hockey but here it goes anyway:

In soccer I was able to hit guys and make it look accidental, all you have to do is act like you are jumping for a header and throw a shoulder into a chin. Or as a goalie make it look like you are punching a ball out of the air and punch a guy in the chin!

All decisions I made, and all dirty, and if a ref had called me on it I would have argue and been bulls*** over it.

My point you know what you are doing before you do it!

edit Grammar

There is a difference. But Downie didn't leave his feet to make the hit, like Drake did. Downie left his feet while making the hit. He did leave his feet, I won't argue that is worthy of a penalty. However, to imply that in some way that because Downie didn't let up when he could have makes the hit worthy of a penalty is just silly.

You have to take it for what it is. The ONLY thing not legal about the hit was that Downie left his feet. Had McAmmond popped up at started a shoving match with Downie, there probably wouldn't have even been a penalty. The only reason we are even talking about this is because McAmmond got knocked out.

To argue that this hit was an intent to injure is foolish. Yes, Downie wanted to make a point, but in no way did he want to injure McAmmond.

P.S. Remind me to never play soccer with you!

[Hank 0]

Watch the clip again, his last stride was about at the hash.

Let me ask this. Do you think when Markov hit Stoll, he was thinking, "Gee, I could put everything I have into this hit, and make sure Stoll goes down. But I don't want to hurt him. So instead, I'll just take the chance of not making the play and only hit him with 75% of what I've got." No, he wasn't. And if for one second you believe that every big hit dished out isn't intended to do as much damage as possible, then you are just naive my friend. Players in today's NHL are more talented than ever before. This means a few things, on being this. As a player, you cannot afford to let your gaurd down and do anything any less than 110%. What to say if Markov does let up a little that Stoll doesn't sit Markov down, and pass the puck to one of his mates for a goal?

If Markov REALLY wanted to hurt him, he would have hit him in the head with his shoulder and not the chest.

There's a difference between putting a guy down and making sure he never gets back up. Downie, and players like him, try to hit "up" as much as they can. Those hits cause concussions and ruin careers.

The problem is these kids have gotten away with hitting improperly for years.

It also doesn't help that Downie's a short little bugger so he's probably had to propel himself upwards at all times.

And I guess if I'm naive then so is Roenick. Wasn't he the one who said, 'guys in the 80's respected each other'? Last time I checked JR has played 18 seasons in the NHL. I'm pretty sure that's a lot more than you or I. So I think I'll take his word over a lot of other people when it comes to this subject.

If Downie had an inch of respect for anything but himself, he wouldn't have went screaming down the ice looking to put someone through the boards. He knew full well he had MacAmmond at his mercy and he threw the most devestating hit he could deliver. That's a lack of respect and it's a conscience effort to do the most damage necessary.

Again, in Markov's case, he knew he had Stoll lined up and he knew that a simple shoulder to the chest would put him down. That's how old-school players were taught to hit. And the only thing that happened to Stoll was a loss of wind in his lungs.

If you watch the tape of Downie's hit, if he had simply turned to put his hip into him or simply stand in his way, he would have accomplished exactly what hits were meant to; separating the puck from the player. Instead he decided to separate his head from his body.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Hank

[Opie 308]

McAmmond was out cold before he hit the boards, therefore I would have to assume the violence of the impact had more to due with the hit than him spinning into the boards.

BTW in the NHL boarding rule is 44.

A more relevant one may be Charging (Rule 47)

# A minor or major penalty shall be imposed on a player who skates or jumps into, or charges an opponent in any manner.

And seeing as the two are both 5'11 I would have to assume that in order for Downie to get his shoulders to McAmmond's head he would have to leave his feet.

Notice it says in any manner, thus making it a discretion issue, so regardless of my opinion or yours, the refs thought it was dirty and there was intent to injure, and their are penalties that follow.

[Hank 0]

There is a difference. But Downie didn't leave his feet to make the hit, like Drake did. Downie left his feet while making the hit. He did leave his feet, I won't argue that is worthy of a penalty. However, to imply that in some way that because Downie didn't let up when he could have makes the hit worthy of a penalty is just silly.

You have to take it for what it is. The ONLY thing not legal about the hit was that Downie left his feet. Had McAmmond popped up at started a shoving match with Downie, there probably wouldn't have even been a penalty. The only reason we are even talking about this is because McAmmond got knocked out.

To argue that this hit was an intent to injure is foolish. Yes, Downie wanted to make a point, but in no way did he want to injure McAmmond.

P.S. Remind me to never play soccer with you!

Have you even seen Downie play hockey before? I had the 'privilege' to watch this idiot play in Windsor for a couple of years. That's exactly what Downie intends to do in each and every game - injure someone. Bob MacKenzie said himself that he watched him play growing up and there is a malicious side to him. Just ask Akim Aliu who took a baseball swing to the face and lost some teeth. Why? Because Aliu refused to kiss Downie's ass.

Stop trying to defend this a'hole. He hasn't earned this reputation for no reason.

Cam Neely was one of the best hitters in hockey, did you ever hear about him being dirty? No. There's a BIG difference between being a physical player and a dirty one. Downie's dirty and couldn't care less about anyone else's well being.

The only reason he made an apology was because he knows that McGratton is going to make him his *****.

Yes a grueling 3 hr course to start but to become a certified leve 3 you have to put in time and be reviewed

countless times.

Wow! And I thought 'Nam was tough.

"Good job Kutcher! You've earned your stripes. I especially liked how you gave Billy a 10 and a game for refusing to stop waving to his grandma in the stands! That little 5-year-old punk will think twice the next time he's on the ice!"

[Guest Yzer19]

From what I have read, mainly the MackKenzie article, people who were there said they saw Downie Pick out a target from center ice, then sprinted as hard as he could at MacAmmond, then lept into him. There was intent, I am not saying he deserves 100 games or anything. Give him the same thing Pronger got one game.

But either way I feel it was dirty, and the league needs to do something about all of these dirty hits.

A lot of young guys who are at a marginal skill level see destroying someone as a way to make an NHL club. They get into bad habits and make hits that shouldn't be made.

Also a big difference between the Drake hit and the Downie hit is that, Drake went through the body of Lebda, the Dizziness and daze was from him smashing the back of his head on the boards. Was it dirty yes, why? because it should have been a charge, he left his feet.

But watch Downie's trajectory and then Drakes. Downie goes up at the head of McAmmond, Drake goes through Lebda, he laves his feet but not up at the head of Lebda.

Downie took off like a head seeking missile!

I agree that league needs to do something about dirty hits, however I don't think a 1 game suspension will do anything. This a punk kid that is trying to make it on a NHL roster. He'll just laugh it up once he makes the roster and other punk kids will do the same thing to make a NHL roster. There should be zero tolerance on this kind of stuff. I think he shouldn't be allowed to play in the NHL. If a player wants to make it onto a NHL team then they should earn their spot the right way with their play on the ice, not because of dirty hits.

Edited September 26, 2007 by Yzer19

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

If Markov REALLY wanted to hurt him, he would have hit him in the head with his shoulder and not the chest.

There's a difference between putting a guy down and making sure he never gets back up. Downie, and players like him, try to hit "up" as much as they can. Those hits cause concussions and ruin careers.

The problem is these kids have gotten away with hitting improperly for years.

It also doesn't help that Downie's a short little bugger so he's probably had to propel himself upwards at all times.

And I guess if I'm naive then so is Roenick. Wasn't he the one who said, 'guys in the 80's respected each other'? Last time I checked JR has played 18 seasons in the NHL. I'm pretty sure that's a lot more than you or I. So I think I'll take his word over a lot of other people when it comes to this subject.

If Downie had an inch of respect for anything but himself, he wouldn't have went screaming down the ice looking to put someone through the boards. He knew full well he had MacAmmond at his mercy and he threw the most devestating hit he could deliver. That's a lack of respect and it's a conscience effort to do the most damage necessary.

Again, in Markov's case, he knew he had Stoll lined up and he knew that a simple shoulder to the chest would put him down. That's how old-school players were taught to hit. And the only thing that happened to Stoll was a loss of wind in his lungs.

If you watch the tape of Downie's hit, if he had simply turned to put his hip into him or simply stand in his way, he would have accomplished exactly what hits were meant to; separating the puck from the player. Instead he decided to separate his head from his body.

Just so we are clear,

is the Markov hit you are talking about, right? If so, you might want to rethink your stance on the Markov hit being so different from the Downie hit.

You keep saying Markov hit Stoll in the chest, but in the clip you can clearly see this isn't the case. In fact, if you watch the replay in that clip, it actually shows Markov's shoulder hitting Stoll much closer to the head that chest, and there was some elbow used by Markov.

I'm not sure how what JR said about players respecting each other more in the 80's has anything to do with you being naive. You lost me there. Maybe you didn't understand what I was trying to say with the naive comment, so I'll explain.

What I meant was this. If you think for one second that when a player lines another player up like Markov did to Stoll, or Stevens did to (fill in the blank), or Downie did to McAmmond, that these guys weren't trying to make the biggest impact possible while stretching the rules a bit, you are being naive. The JR comment just doesn't fit here. What JR was speaking about was the increase in dirty play shows the lack of respect. The issue of respect has nothing to do with the legality of the hit.