20 games for Downie

[sticknmove 0]

Ok Gordie, point taken, but how many games was Pronger given? How many games was Colby Armstrong give (the EXACT same type of hit), I mean hell Simon got 25 games for what he did. IT is ridiculous, and jesus maybe we should go back to the past, where players actually respected each other to a certain degree, and had to answer to other players, not collect a check and rest for 6 weeks or however long 20 games will take him into the season.

[Turkey 0]

Games played in the AHL do not count. If he goes down to the minors and is then brought up, I think it starts counting then. Or...something...I think....lol

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

I have seen players going full tilt hit a guy and yes they will leave their feet, but usually it is not so drastic that they end up parallel to the ice 4.5 feet above it.

Two things that make the hit an intent to injure:

1. Shoulder to the head, he easily could have buried his shoulder into McAmmond's chest, seeing as they are both 5'11. You can say McAmmond's head was down, that means he was looking down, not bent over tying his skates. Yes he should have kept his head on a swivel I agree, but when Downie hit him, from what I saw and read, he had every intention of hurting him. If he hits him in the chest and he knocks McAmmond out or hurts him badly, it is easy to call it a good hard clean hit.

2. The force with which he takes off from the ground, You have got to have a lot of force behind you to end up parallel to the ice. The man did not slightly leave his feat, if you watch the slow mo that was posted, you can see a good 2-3 inches of daylight between his skates and the ice.

I think part of what Downie was trying to do was say "Hey no one f***s with me" and he wanted to show the rest of the league to leave him alone.

I agree the league is far too inconsistent on these suspensions, and a lot of it has to do with who the offender and the victim are. But that is just like the rest of our society.

EDIT: Clarity

Watch the clip again. There is no way that Downie could have put his shoulder in the McAmmond's chest "if he wanted to" as you suggest. McAmmond got hit in the head for two reasons.

1. He had his head down. Any player at the NHL level knows better.

2. He was crouched down. When he went behind the net, he bent down to make a sharp turn, and never really stood up.

Also, the reason you see Downie fly so far in the air after the hit is simply because hit did hit McAmmond so hard, and McAmmond was crouched. McAmmond was somewhat of a ramp for Downie.

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

Sounds good.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

IMO the technicalities of the hit were NOT what got him 20 but Downie showing absolutely no respect for fellow players was.

It's not about being tough and gritty, this guy cleary needs to control his temper and learn some respect and discipline.

Beside, the league was trying to send a message and this was the perfect opportunity for it.

Anyway I hope Downie learned something from this and comeback strong.

Watch the clip again. There is no way that Downie could have put his shoulder in the McAmmond's chest "if he wanted to" as you suggest. McAmmond got hit in the head for two reasons.

1. He had his head down. Any player at the NHL level knows better.

2. He was crouched down. When he went behind the net, he bent down to make a sharp turn, and never really stood up.

Also, the reason you see Downie fly so far in the air after the hit is simply because hit did hit McAmmond so hard, and McAmmond was crouched. McAmmond was somewhat of a ramp for Downie.

Wow. If only Downie had some kind of mental control over his feet. He could have avoided railroading someone in the face. But alas, once you start skating toward a victim you just can't pull out of your attack run.

[A.T.Hun 0]

Games played in the AHL do not count. If he goes down to the minors and is then brought up, I think it starts counting then. Or...something...I think....lol

I can't remember if I saw it on ESPN or what, but they said that the suspension does not start ticking off if he is sent down. I guess that begs the question, why bring him up . . . ever?

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

This is one of the biggest problems that NHL has: inconsistency.

The NHL is a joke when it comes enforcing it's "rules". Whether it be not calling games the same way during the regular season and playoffs, or on a suspension such as this.

Giving Dowie 20 games puts that hit into the same category as Dale Hunter, Todd Bertuzzi, Marty McSorley, Chris Simon, and Brad May. Yet still, they say this hit was worse than what Dave Brown, and Tie Domi did. (Click HERE to see what I'm talking about.)

Regardless of your standpoint on the hit, this suspension has to seem over the top.

Anyone else remember the hit Jordin Tootoo placed on Mike Modano last season, and the ensuing sucker punch? That was a 5 game suspension.

This suspension is far too harsh, especially when you look at the NHL's past record of suspensions.

OMG. Stop and think to yourself. Maybe, just maybe the NHL has decided to get tougher on this s***. Therefore, we're going to start seeing bigger suspensions from now on. People need to stop comparing this to the old stuff. This is a new season and the head shots issue is one of the biggest things going on in the sport. Perhaps this is the league drawing a NEW line in the sand and establishing a NEW standard for punishment.

Am I the only person who thinks this is a possibility?

Ok Gordie, point taken, but how many games was Pronger given? How many games was Colby Armstrong give (the EXACT same type of hit), I mean hell Simon got 25 games for what he did. IT is ridiculous, and jesus maybe we should go back to the past, where players actually respected each other to a certain degree, and had to answer to other players, not collect a check and rest for 6 weeks or however long 20 games will take him into the season.

I'm with you about going back to the old days where players policed themselves and respected each other more. However, that isn't going to happen by removing the instigator rule no matter how hard we die-hard pugilist fans think it will. The game is too wide open now. No obstruction, no 2-line pass, stronger, faster players, etc....The headshot issue will not be solved in any other means than by suspending the hell out of players for doing it.

Take your example of Colby Armstrong. I disagree about the similarity in that Armstrong didn't launch himself off the ice. However, the hit was similar in that he rocked him in the head. You can also look at the Brian Campbell hit on Umberger. Or go back to Chris Tamer laying out Keith Primeau. These are all hard, "clean", hits. What we need to ask ourselves is do we want to allow this to continue, clean or not. Players are getting too dangerous for their own good IMO. I think we've got to make it a penalty to make contact with a guy's head first. It isn't worth it. Yeah, its great to see a guy get smoked but nowadays, guys aren't getting up anymore. It isn't worth losing somebody's career and health over us wanting to be hardcore and allow "clean" hits to the noggin.

s***, its late and i'm all over the place. Look, if you want to reconcile this latest suspension in your own mind. Do yourself a favor and forget about every suspension prior to this. Look at this as the league turning over a new leaf where they will be consistent and harder on these things. Give them the benefit of the doubt and wait and see what happens next.

What's past is past and lets just agree that the league was soft on punishment and inconsistent. Look at this as them taking the 1st step to fixing those problems.

[Drake_Marcus 890]

OMG. Stop and think to yourself. Maybe, just maybe the NHL has decided to get tougher on this s***. Therefore, we're going to start seeing bigger suspensions from now on. People need to stop comparing this to the old stuff. This is a new season and the head shots issue is one of the biggest things going on in the sport. Perhaps this is the league drawing a NEW line in the sand and establishing a NEW standard for punishment.

Am I the only person who thinks this is a possibility?

Great user name. And a clear thinker.

[sticknmove 0]

its a f*cking contact sport. Every sport that allows contact has instances of dirty play, oh wait, I get it. Next helmet to helmet hit in the NFL 5 games, next undercut in basketball, 22 games, bringing a leg up on a slide tackle in soccer 18 games, forarm to the face of a man NOT carrying the ball in rugby 5 games. Give me a break bro, 20 games for that is f*cking CRAZY. you can go off on this and that all day, 20 games for any hit, any form of check (minus cross checking, and BLATENT knee to knee) should warrant nothing more then 3 games MAX. Downie did lay a nasty, dirty hit on the guy, and he is the perfect fall guy for Bettman and Co. He has a bad reputation from juniors, is on Philly, and is young and unestablished. You are kidding yourselfs if you think this precedent will be held for everyone in the league.

Edited September 29, 2007 by sticknmove

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Wow. If only Downie had some kind of mental control over his feet. He could have avoided railroading someone in the face. But alas, once you start skating toward a victim you just can't pull out of your attack run.

I see your intention to use sarcasism here, but I fail to see why. I never said he didn't leave his feet. I never said he couldn't have let up. So what's your point?

OMG. Stop and think to yourself. Maybe, just maybe the NHL has decided to get tougher on this s***. Therefore, we're going to start seeing bigger suspensions from now on. People need to stop comparing this to the old stuff. This is a new season and the head shots issue is one of the biggest things going on in the sport. Perhaps this is the league drawing a NEW line in the sand and establishing a NEW standard for punishment.

Am I the only person who thinks this is a possibility?

What's past is past and lets just agree that the league was soft on punishment and inconsistent. Look at this as them taking the 1st step to fixing those problems.

The NHL get tougher on this? Maybe, just maybe you should stop and think. Everyone knows the NHL isn't going to get tougher on this. It's just like Bettman saying games will be called the same in playoffs as in the regular season. Just isn't going to happen. The NHL, as long as Bettman and Campbell are in charge, will be forever doomed to only be consistent in it's inconsistency.

Regardless, let's just assume you are right. Looking at the suspension arbitrarily (btw, if Downie appeals the suspension, an arbitrator will review it), the NHL gave no warning about toughening up on these hits. And yes, we do have to look back at the past, it's the only measuring stick we have to use.

[Kutcher 0]

So you're saying that he hasn't received his lumps before, being a loose cannon and all? He gathered up 22 games of suspensions in his last hockey league, so what makes you think he never got his lumps in those situations but will now?

It doesn't matter though. The point of this suspension is NOT to teach him a lesson. The point is to make a firm point about bulls*** jumping hits to the jaw that show zero respect for the safety of the other players on the ice. s*** like that is pandemic in the modern NHL but would never have been tolerated in the harder, tough as nails NHL of old.

Causing severe head trauma IS NOT PART OF THE GAME. I don't want the NHL to turn into the NFL where injuries eat up thousands of man-games a year.

Yes. Thats exactly what I'm saying. A Suspension does not teach guys like him a lesson, getting punded by McGratton or someone would have a bigger effect on him than a 200 game suspension. The loser commish needs to let the league's tough guys police the league.Things will go back to the respect that there was 10 years ago.

Exactly. The guy is like a small mad dinosaur on skates. It really makes you wonder why Philly actually used a 1st round draft pick on him: he sucks.

The suspension is certainly justified. I hate Downie. All he can do is trash talk, and if he actually does drop the gloves, he keeps his visor on. He's such a puss.

He sucks? are you retarded or something. The guy played 45 games in the OHL last season and accumulated 92 points. That is hardly someone who sucks. He WILL be a top 6 in this league and will be able to play on any teams top 2 lines. People like you who know nothing about him and what he has done should shut the f*** up and stop basing your opinion on 1 hit. Soneone who makes the CANADIAN ( not american or russian or anyother inferior country in hockey ) World Junior team can't suck.

Downie's Stats there's his OHL #'s

He did win the gold medal with them twice and amassed 6 pts in 06 and 5 pts in 07, pretty respectable numbers in that tourney.

[55fan 5,133]

The NHL get tougher on this? Maybe, just maybe you should stop and think. Everyone knows the NHL isn't going to get tougher on this. It's just like Bettman saying games will be called the same in playoffs as in the regular season. Just isn't going to happen. The NHL, as long as Bettman and Campbell are in charge, will be forever doomed to only be consistent in it's inconsistency.

Regardless, let's just assume you are right. Looking at the suspension arbitrarily (btw, if Downie appeals the suspension, an arbitrator will review it), the NHL gave no warning about toughening up on these hits. And yes, we do have to look back at the past, it's the only measuring stick we have to use.

The NHL did send out a DVD this year that had to be shown before or during training camp that spelled out what was acceptable and what was not. Granted, Pronger and his ilk probably thought it was an instructional video and took notes, but they can't say that they weren't warned.

In an interview which can be found on the Wings site, Nick Lidstrom had quite a bit to say about this. Here are some relevant quotes:

(Lidstrom):It's OK, fighting is still legal. You can still score often, have a good honest fight. But I think we have to get rid of the cheap shots, the ones to the head and the ones blindsiding and jumping. That's what we have to get away from.

Q: You mentioned that respect again. Is there a lack of respect among players compared to in the previous generations?

LIDSTROM: Maybe a little bit. I think we had a bit more tougher guys in our lineups when I first broke into the league 15 years ago where that kind of took care of itself on the ice. You still have the cheap shots or the blindsided shots, but you had more -- I think you had more respect amongst each other, too, with that older generation, where if you had something like that happen, you would have players square off and kind of take care of that business on the ice.

He said a lot more about the league needing to suspend people to get the message across.

[auxlepli 17]

A head shot is no laughing matter. The past is just that, the past. I really don't care about the number of games other players received .The NHL needs to ramp up its harshness IMO. Downie should have gotten 40 games.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

its a f*cking contact sport. Every sport that allows contact has instances of dirty play, oh wait, I get it. Next helmet to helmet hit in the NFL 5 games, next undercut in basketball, 22 games, bringing a leg up on a slide tackle in soccer 18 games, forarm to the face of a man NOT carrying the ball in rugby 5 games. Give me a break bro, 20 games for that is f*cking CRAZY. you can go off on this and that all day, 20 games for any hit, any form of check (minus cross checking, and BLATENT knee to knee) should warrant nothing more then 3 games MAX. Downie did lay a nasty, dirty hit on the guy, and he is the perfect fall guy for Bettman and Co. He has a bad reputation from juniors, is on Philly, and is young and unestablished. You are kidding yourselfs if you think this precedent will be held for everyone in the league.

Stick, I think your comparisons are way off base.

Football helmets, hockey helmets. How many players do you see in the NFL running around tackling people by their head or putting shoulders into their heads? You don't. You don't tackle or block somebody with a shoulder to the head. Why are we allowing blows to the head in hockey? There's nothing more to be said about this issue. If you don't get it then you don't get it.

As for BringHome. Dude, I guess it takes a higher, enlightened level of thinking to get over the past. If you can't fundamentally assume that the league was piss poor in its decision making re: suspensions in the past, of course you can't reconcile this punishment in your head. That's okay though. Some people invent and some people dig ditches. Go get your shovel already.

Blows to head = bad for hockey

NHL suspensions = need to get tougher. this is a great 1st step.

If you can't get over your own machismo and want to cry about hockey should be bloody and violent. Then go watch UFC. If I don't see another player carted off on a stretcher ever again, I'll be just fine with it.

PS: If you watch hits like this over and over and get a kick out of it and think its just "tough hockey" and shouldn't even be suspendable. I hope somebody railroads you the next time you play. Because you deserve it.

[Kutcher 0]

Stick, I think your comparisons are way off base.

Football helmets, hockey helmets. How many players do you see in the NFL running around tackling people by their head or putting shoulders into their heads? You don't. You don't tackle or block somebody with a shoulder to the head. Why are we allowing blows to the head in hockey? There's nothing more to be said about this issue. If you don't get it then you don't get it.

As for BringHome. Dude, I guess it takes a higher, enlightened level of thinking to get over the past. If you can't fundamentally assume that the league was piss poor in its decision making re: suspensions in the past, of course you can't reconcile this punishment in your head. That's okay though. Some people invent and some people dig ditches. Go get your shovel already.

Blows to head = bad for hockey

NHL suspensions = need to get tougher. this is a great 1st step.

If you can't get over your own machismo and want to cry about hockey should be bloody and violent. Then go watch UFC. If I don't see another player carted off on a stretcher ever again, I'll be just fine with it.

PS: If you watch hits like this over and over and get a kick out of it and think its just "tough hockey" and shouldn't even be suspendable. I hope somebody railroads you the next time you play. Because you deserve it.

Every week in football there is at least one highlight of a guy getting crushed with a shoulder to the head , or a head to the chest type hit. It's definitely common practice in the NFL.

And if you can't get over people getting crushed and ending up hurt, go watch some euro hockey or figure skating. ( saying this cuz its as retarded and pointless as your ufc comment).

Edited September 29, 2007 by Kutcher

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

The NHL did send out a DVD this year that had to be shown before or during training camp that spelled out what was acceptable and what was not. Granted, Pronger and his ilk probably thought it was an instructional video and took notes, but they can't say that they weren't warned.

In an interview which can be found on the Wings site, Nick Lidstrom had quite a bit to say about this. Here are some relevant quotes:

(Lidstrom):It's OK, fighting is still legal. You can still score often, have a good honest fight. But I think we have to get rid of the cheap shots, the ones to the head and the ones blindsiding and jumping. That's what we have to get away from.

Q: You mentioned that respect again. Is there a lack of respect among players compared to in the previous generations?

LIDSTROM: Maybe a little bit. I think we had a bit more tougher guys in our lineups when I first broke into the league 15 years ago where that kind of took care of itself on the ice. You still have the cheap shots or the blindsided shots, but you had more -- I think you had more respect amongst each other, too, with that older generation, where if you had something like that happen, you would have players square off and kind of take care of that business on the ice.

He said a lot more about the league needing to suspend people to get the message across.

I'm not talking about a DVD. I'm talking about something like a DVD plus something like "Hey guys, hit like this. Yeah, they are going to cost you a minimum of X amount of games."

Nothing like that was issued. That is why this suspension is too harsh. There has never been a suspension of this magnitude for a hit like that. For christ's sake, Pronger only got 1 game for intentionally driving Homer's head into the glass!

I just don't see how anyone could say this suspension isn't too long.

[vangvace 12]

I'm not talking about a DVD. I'm talking about something like a DVD plus something like "Hey guys, hit like this. Yeah, they are going to cost you a minimum of X amount of games."

Nothing like that was issued. That is why this suspension is too harsh. There has never been a suspension of this magnitude for a hit like that. For christ's sake, Pronger only got 1 game for intentionally driving Homer's head into the glass!

I just don't see how anyone could say this suspension isn't too long.

Actually the league has said that they would be cracking down on headhunting this season. It's kinda like how they went overboard with interference calls a couple years ago.

As for saying do this and you will get this... that only handcuffs the league later.

It wouldn't surprise me if the suspension is halved when it's appealed, but what I'm really curious to see is what comes from the next incident in the league.

20 games for a check... to the same guy that had his head down when Pronger laid him out in the SCFs.

Edited September 30, 2007 by vangvace

[Lou_Siffer 1]

nm

Edited September 29, 2007 by Lou_Siffer

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Actually the league has said that they would be cracking down on headhunting this season. It's kinda like how they went overboard with interference calls a couple years ago.

As for saying do this and you will get this... that only handcuffs the league later.

It wouldn't surprise me if the suspension is halved when it's appealed, but what I'm really curious to see is what comes from the next incident in the league.

20 games for a check... to the same guy that had his head down when Pronger laid him out in the SCFs.

My point was this, it's one thing to say we are going to be stiffer about this, and a completely different thing to say this is what we will do.

The difference is say things are going to change, rather than telling you exactly what to expect.

This hit wasn't anything the NHL hadn't seen before. It wasn't Steve Moore's neck getting snapped. You expect this to happen in a hand full of games every year. The NHL should have been prepared, and made it public news that if you go out of your way to hit someone in the head, you will be suspended a minimum of X amount of games, potentially more based on x factors.

[vangvace 12]

My point was this, it's one thing to say we are going to be stiffer about this, and a completely different thing to say this is what we will do.

The difference is say things are going to change, rather than telling you exactly what to expect.

This hit wasn't anything the NHL hadn't seen before. It wasn't Steve Moore's neck getting snapped. You expect this to happen in a hand full of games every year. The NHL should have been prepared, and made it public news that if you go out of your way to hit someone in the head, you will be suspended a minimum of X amount of games, potentially more based on x factors.

I'm not disagreeing, but it is the NHL we're talking about. Rational and consistency go out the window at the head office. I have a feeling on appeal this will be dropped to 5-10 games.

Campbell tried to claim that 20 games wasn't based on Downie's reputation, but he knows what that rep is. Sounds kinda fishy to me.

[eva unit zero 271]

Actually the league has said that they would be cracking down on headhunting this season. It's kinda like how they went overboard with interference calls a couple years ago.

As for saying do this and you will get this... that only handcuffs the league later.

It wouldn't surprise me if the suspension is halved when it's appealed, but what I'm really curious to see is what comes from the next incident in the league.

20 games for a check... to the same guy that had his head down when Pronger laid him out in the SCFs.

McAmmond was watching the play at the net...it's not like he was staring at the puck between his skates and got leveled...he didn't have the puck and was looking where it was. Downie lanuched himself elbow first into McAmmond's head...an intentional head shot that was all about retaliation. 20 games sounds right for what Downie did....unfortunately the league has issued some weak suspensions in the past that you guys are now citing as 'precedent.'

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

McAmmond was watching the play at the net...it's not like he was staring at the puck between his skates and got leveled...he didn't have the puck and was looking where it was. Downie lanuched himself elbow first into McAmmond's head...an intentional head shot that was all about retaliation. 20 games sounds right for what Downie did....unfortunately the league has issued some weak suspensions in the past that you guys are now citing as 'precedent.'

Downie did not hit McAmmond with his elbow. It was a shoulder to head hit. Watch the clip. There is no way 20 games is justifiable.

[toby91_ca 620]

Downie did not hit McAmmond with his elbow. It was a shoulder to head hit. Watch the clip. There is no way 20 games is justifiable.

Wether it was an elbow or shoulder is completely irrelevant. He basically lined up the hit from 150 feet away and was trying to hurt the guy. He deserved what he got.

[auxlepli 17]

Downie lined him up, and AND left his feet. Downie looked like a freakin missle. I'll stand by my original post in this thread. Downie deserved way more than 20.

[Skiing - Puck 0]

Wether it was an elbow or shoulder is completely irrelevant. He basically lined up the hit from 150 feet away and was trying to hurt the guy. He deserved what he got.

A NHL rink is only 200 feet long. So by no means did he line it up from 150 feet away.