haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 If they didn't retire Lidstrom's number, I can't imagine what more a player would have to do to deserve the honor. 3 cups (so far), 5 norris trophies (so far), gold medal, captain. They'd never retire a number again. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest jaytan Report post Posted October 19, 2007 I love Draper and think he should captain the team (even if chris chelios doesn't agree with me), but I think it would be outrageous to suggest retiring his number. Plus, it's a goalie number. What if we have a bunch of amazing goalies throughout the next 50 years? Those are important to save. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
haroldsnepsts 4,826 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 I know this is off topic, but I don't think it warrants it's own because it is so close. What about Draper, This is his 14th season with the Wings and is hoping to sign for three more years. He was a huge part in the Left Wing Lock that helped win three Stanley Cups. He has a Selke and has been one of the most dedicated, hard working players to ever wear the winged wheel. Why not? Because he's not among the best of the best. He's a very good player and a lot of the heart of this team. He works hard and was a big part of their championships. He's just not in that top top tier, which is where you need to be to have your number retired in Detroit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 It's too bad things didn't work out differently for Fedorov. If only he had remained a Wing his whole career. Even if he stayed only one more year, he would only be behind Howe and Yzerman on the team's all time scoring list. He's 2nd on the team's all time scoring list in the playoffs I believe (behind Yzerman, but has a better ppg). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LIDDYGIBBY5 1 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 Because he's not among the best of the best. He's a very good player and a lot of the heart of this team. He works hard and was a big part of their championships. He's just not in that top top tier, which is where you need to be to have your number retired in Detroit. I'm not trying to argue, but what is your criteria? Is it just players that put up stats that should be retired? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Third Man In 2,091 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 (edited) There are at least two factors that go into retiring a player's number: 1. Career performance 2. Performance while with the team And I think there is a third: the success of the team while that player was on it. Remember, for a long time Howe's was the only retired number. The Wings didn't retire Abel's, Lindsay's, Delveccio's, and Sawchuk's numbers until the early 90s, when the team was making a concerted effort to win its first cup since they played. Based on these three criteria (and any other), Lidstrom is of course a no brainer. But I think that a case could be made that both Shanahan's and Fedorov's numbers could be retired, not just based on individual performance but also as another way, along with the Stanley Cup banners, to commemorate the team's three recent cups. Shanahan's number likely will be retired, especially since he was widely regarded as the missing piece in 97. And though it's hard to make a case to retire one and not the other, I doubt Fedorov's number will be retired. Ozzie's should be next Edited October 19, 2007 by Third Man In Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
datsyukismyfriend 4 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 Even if both guys stayed as Wings and retired in Detroit, I wouldn't retire either number. The Red Wings have a higher standard than most franchises for retiring numbers, and if we retired every guy who led the team in scoring for a couple years or was a frequent all-star, there wouldn't be any numbers left after a few decades. i bet feds would have been retired if he had stayed a wing. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 Because he's not among the best of the best. He's a very good player and a lot of the heart of this team. He works hard and was a big part of their championships. He's just not in that top top tier, which is where you need to be to have your number retired in Detroit. He won't even get a sniff at the Hall of Fame and I think retiring numbers should be for players that are not just ordinary hall of famers, but the top notch hall of famers. Depends on the team of course, but for the Wings, I have about the same chance as Draper. Not a knock on Draper, but he simply has no chance of having his number retired. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
LIDDYGIBBY5 1 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 i bet feds would have been retired if he had stayed a wing. I have no doubt of that in my mind. Feds was loved more as a Wing as he is hated now that he has left. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 Even if both guys stayed as Wings and retired in Detroit, I wouldn't retire either number. The Red Wings have a higher standard than most franchises for retiring numbers, and if we retired every guy who led the team in scoring for a couple years or was a frequent all-star, there wouldn't be any numbers left after a few decades. Compare Fedorov's accomplishments to the few guys that have their numbers retired here. If he had of stayed with the Wings his entire career, you would have a hard time arguing against having his number retired here. I'm not trying to argue, but what is your criteria? Is it just players that put up stats that should be retired? I think the first criterion is that you have to be a hall of fame player. In Draper's case, you don't have to bother talking about any other criteria since he doesn't get past the first one. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest jaytan Report post Posted October 19, 2007 He wasn't very popular with a lot of Wings fans, though. Remember how he tried to shake down the organization? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 Shanahan's number likely will be retired, especially since he was widely regarded as the missing piece in 97. And though it's hard to make a case to retire one and not the other, I doubt Fedorov's number will be retired. Shanahan's number won't be retired in Detroit. And though it's hard to make a case to retire one and not the other, I doubt Fedorov's number will be retired. Where's the logic here? I don't think either should have their number retired in Detroit, but how can you argue for Shanny and not Fedorov? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 Where's the logic here? I don't think either should have their number retired in Detroit, but how can you argue for Shanny and not Fedorov? Yeah, that makes no sense. I could make a ton of arguments for Fedorov over Shanahan, it isn't even close. I'm not even sure what argument you could even make for Shanahan (missing piece for the 97 cup??? That doesn't seem like a very solid argument to me). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Third Man In 2,091 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 (edited) Shanahan's number won't be retired in Detroit. --Maybe not. We shall see. Where's the logic here? I don't think either should have their number retired in Detroit, but how can you argue for Shanny and not Fedorov? I'm not arguing we should retire Shanny and not Fedorov. I'm arguing you should either retire both or neither. But I'm also suggesting that because Shanny is much better liked and left the team on much better terrns, what is more likely to (wrongly) happen is that Shanny's will be retired but not Fedorov's. Unless, I should have added, if the team doesn't win another cup for 40 years... As for the missing piece argument not being very solid: fair enough. Edited October 19, 2007 by Third Man In Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 I'm arguing you should either retire both or neither. Which I think is a silly argument. Fedorov is 2nd all time in playoffs points, 4th all time in regular season pts (would have easily been 3rd had he stayed). He has the individual awards. There is an argument for Fedorov, none for Shanny. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NeverForgetMac25 483 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 I'm not arguing we should retire Shanny and not Fedorov. I'm arguing you should either retire both or neither. But I'm also suggesting that because Shanny is much better liked and left the team on much better terrns, what is more likely to (wrongly) happen is that Shanny's will be retired but not Fedorov's. Unless, I should have added, if the team doesn't win another cup for 40 years... That I agree with.....and the answer is neither. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SFwingsfan 23 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 (edited) Lidstrom's number should be retired if he remains a Red Wing. Going to Phoenix to play for more money to end his career may change my feeling on this. In my opinion, nothing is more sacred than a retired number and it needs to be kept special. Shannahan absolutely not, Fedorov absolutely not. Although i'd like to see Sergei come back for the right price and end his career here. Edited October 19, 2007 by SFwingsfan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flip-check 6 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 If feds would have stayed a wing there's no way in hell he wouldnt be up there .. all the records he has recorded as a wing thats hhuugge.. Plus all those GW's .. Shanny shouldnt even get a honorable mention Feds' mark against him would have been the contract hold out season had he stayed, but I think you'd have to reach for something biggerthan that to make him lose his retirement worthiness. Shanny's marks are different: non-Detroit homegrown, began his career in another town, but those ones don't matter so much. I think your "Shanny shouldnt even get a honorable mention" is somewhat laughable, but I also think his caliber of impact as a Red Wing is the thing that's debateable. And the thing he'd be evaluated on, again, if he had stayed. Feds was a shoe-in though, practically on the same level as Lidstrom. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Third Man In 2,091 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 Which I think is a silly argument. It's only silly if you think personal achievement is the only thing that factors in. Statistically, yes, Fedorov has a much more solid case. Again, I wasn't arguing that the Wings should or should not retire either. I'm speculating what they are likely to do, for all sorts of reasons beyond just stats and personal awards. If anything, I think too many numbers are retired (see Bourque in Colorado after only one season), and they probably should retire neither. Neither is in the same category as Lids. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flip-check 6 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 I'm speculating what they are likely to do, for all sorts of reasons beyond just stats and personal awards. If anything, I think too many numbers are retired (see Bourque in Colorado after only one season), and they probably should retire neither. Neither is in the same category as Lids. The Avs pulled a practical joke with that one, but I don't know of any other examples of teams embarassing themselves that way. And they won't retire Feds or Shanny. I don't think anyone has to worry about that. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest jaytan Report post Posted October 19, 2007 The Avs have no history, and that's why they did that. Really, only two (maybe three) guys ought to have their numbers retired in Colorado and only one of them (Sakic) would have been a no-brainer if they had as much history as the Wings. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flip-check 6 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 Would have been? Is a no-brainer. The Avs/Nordiques are 27 years in and that's history enough, so Sakic will definitely be retired when he decides to call it quits. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Stu in Israel 0 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 Zata40 asks, "Do you think it will happen?" Lidstrom is presently a five-time winner of the Norris Trophy and intends to retire as a Red Wing. Isn't it a foregone conclusion? Tell me Zata40, do you think the sun will shine tomorrow? or better than that: Do you think other useless threads will follow yours? Yeah, sadly they will, just as sure as the sun will shine tomorrow! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest jaytan Report post Posted October 19, 2007 Duh. I mean Roy and Forsberg are iffy in my book. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Flip-check 6 Report post Posted October 19, 2007 (edited) Duh. I mean Roy and Forsberg are iffy in my book. I just wasn't sure on your post. It sounded like you were inferring the Avs haven't been around long enough to raise Sakic up, but good, that can of worms is not opened. I didn't even know Roy had been retired until about fifteen minutes ago. At least the Avs have one credible retiree. Edited October 19, 2007 by Flip-check Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
