All-Star teams

[Shaman 713]

Again there whole team save 2 players is 0 or minus, hes not a one man all star team people make him out to be. I dislike him as a persona, not a person. He is so hyped, and I feel that is hurting hockey more then its helping it. And I dont know why youd take the Crosby over the leading scorer in the NHL.

[Offsides 21]

I agree with the vote for Ozzie...did you expect me not to? thus far. He's doing great...love to see his name at the tops of the charts...just like I knew he could do if he had another chance at starter. 3rd in GAA...tied for 4th in wins with a whole bunch of players who've played more games, which yeah he's totally undefeated....6th in Sv% with a not too shabby 93%.

Yeah that was just a good excuse for me to beam about Ozzie so what. Top ten in all stats is just nice to see, and he's our backup...sorta.

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

I agree with the vote for Ozzie...did you expect me not to? thus far. He's doing great...love to see his name at the tops of the charts...just like I knew he could do if he had another chance at starter. 3rd in GAA...tied for 4th in wins with a whole bunch of players who've played more games, which yeah he's totally undefeated....6th in Sv% with a not too shabby 93%.

Yeah that was just a good excuse for me to beam about Ozzie so what. Top ten in all stats is just nice to see, and he's our backup...sorta.

Amen, Jen!

How great does it feel eh? You and I have said those things time and time again about Oz, but did anyone listen? Noooo.

Our boy is kicking ass and taking names. I think I'd cry if he made it to the All Star game. So far he sure as hell deserves it.

[BeeRYCE 2]

If the teams were made today...

(Starters in bold)

WEST

Forwards

Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Iginla, Nash, Thornton, Kopitar, Langkow, Sakic, Kariya, Holmstrom, Tanguay, Cammalleri

Defense

Rafalski, Lidstrom, Phaneuf, Visnovsky, Aucoin, Pronger

Goalies

Leclaire, Backstrom, Nabokov

EAST

Forwards

Brind'Amour, Sundin, Ovechkin, Crosby, Heatley, Spezza, Briere, E. Staal, Lecavalier, Alfredsson, Malkin, Stillman

Defense

Campbell, A. Markov, Gonchar, Kaberle, Redden, Hamrlik

Goalies

Biron, Gerber, Lundqvist

I think the goalies will be completely changed though. Luongo, Kipper, Brodeur, and Giguere are all among goalies who'll probably end up playing.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

If the teams were made today...

(Starters in bold)

WEST

Forwards

Zetterberg, Datsyuk, Iginla, Nash, Thornton, Kopitar, Langkow, Sakic, Kariya, Holmstrom, Tanguay, Cammalleri

Defense

Rafalski, Lidstrom, Phaneuf, Visnovsky, Aucoin, Pronger

Goalies

Leclaire, Backstrom, Nabokov

EAST

Forwards

Brind'Amour, Sundin, Ovechkin, Crosby, Heatley, Spezza, Briere, E. Staal, Lecavalier, Alfredsson, Malkin, Stillman

Defense

Campbell, A. Markov, Gonchar, Kaberle, Redden, Hamrlik

Goalies

Biron, Gerber, Lundqvist

I think the goalies will be completely changed though. Luongo, Kipper, Brodeur, and Giguere are all among goalies who'll probably end up playing.

Aucoin? Redden? Hamrlik?

[puckloo39 5,686]

I think the goalies will be completely changed though. Luongo, Kipper, Brodeur, and Giguere are all among goalies who'll probably end up playing.

I agree. Short of a "Rory Fitzpatrick" ballot-stuffing effort on behalf of any other candidate, those are the players I would expect to see at the All Star Show.

Even though Brodeur utterly sucks at the moment, he's no more likely than Dom is to stay at his current numbers a dozen games into the season.

[datsyukismyfriend 4]

Welcome to the '07-'08 season...

lol...

thank you

[eva unit zero 271]

Kubina couldnt make the all-star game if he actually was a decent defenceman. He sucks.

I'd agree with the rest of the list, I would die to see Ozzie make it, all those idiot naysayers would retract there comments quite fast.

While I have heard some malice towards Kubina, I haven't had the opportunity to watch a Leafs game this season, and every stat he has is looking good; points, plus-minus, shots blocks, giveaways, takeaways, hits are all solid numbers. I admit my lists were compiled largely from statistical observations rather that having seen a high number of games. One thing to take in to consideration, though is that Kubina, just by the numbers, appears to be doing considerably better on both sides of the puck this season that last. Last season he had 21 points, +7, 110 blocks, 100 hits, 50 giveaways and 27 takeaways in 61 games...he has 9 points, +9, and 9 takeaways, 23 hits, 29 blocks, 9 giveaways in only 13 games...which projects to 42 points, +42, 42 each of giveaways and takeaways, 108 hits, and 136 blocked shots over 61 games. That's noticeably better in every single category, especially points, takeaways, blocked shots, and plus-minus.

[Kutcher 0]

Again there whole team save 2 players is 0 or minus, hes not a one man all star team people make him out to be. I dislike him as a persona, not a person. He is so hyped, and I feel that is hurting hockey more then its helping it. And I dont know why youd take the Crosby over the leading scorer in the NHL.

Because, zetts is leading now but he won't be in a month or 2 months. I like him as much as the next guy but I know that Crosby is the best offensive player in the NHL and will be for years to come. And the hype is due, the kid has beat Gretzky's records. He is 20 years old and is getting better, why wouldn't you take him over Zetts?

His offensive ability more than makes up for his small lack of defensiveness.

[toby91_ca 620]

While I have heard some malice towards Kubina, I haven't had the opportunity to watch a Leafs game this season, and every stat he has is looking good; points, plus-minus, shots blocks, giveaways, takeaways, hits are all solid numbers. I admit my lists were compiled largely from statistical observations rather that having seen a high number of games. One thing to take in to consideration, though is that Kubina, just by the numbers, appears to be doing considerably better on both sides of the puck this season that last. Last season he had 21 points, +7, 110 blocks, 100 hits, 50 giveaways and 27 takeaways in 61 games...he has 9 points, +9, and 9 takeaways, 23 hits, 29 blocks, 9 giveaways in only 13 games...which projects to 42 points, +42, 42 each of giveaways and takeaways, 108 hits, and 136 blocked shots over 61 games. That's noticeably better in every single category, especially points, takeaways, blocked shots, and plus-minus.

I suggest you go watch some Leaf games then....he and the rest of the defensmen are simply terrible. On top of that, they just may be the highest paid group in the league.

[eva unit zero 271]

I suggest you go watch some Leaf games then....he and the rest of the defensmen are simply terrible. On top of that, they just may be the highest paid group in the league.

And yet, often players on the actual All-Star teams are decided based on statistics, regardless of actual quality of play.

[toby91_ca 620]

And yet, often players on the actual All-Star teams are decided based on statistics, regardless of actual quality of play.

True, I forgot about the topic of the thread. This is why you may have guys like McCabe, Gonchar and Souray potentially being allstars.

[b.shanafan14 733]

I think we'll see the big name players we always do, along with some fan favorites, and fillers for bottom of the barrel teams, deserving Red Wings like Rafalski and Holmstrom will be left at home for bums from Nashville, Pheonix, and half the Rangers line up (who as of this point aren't deserving).... all-star weekend is fun and all, but in the end, Bettman sends who Bettman wants, just ask Chelios

As far as Dom last year not going and Turco going, despite some numbers: Like it or not Turco is a more solid goaltender these days than Dom is, he just has worse D in front of him. Dom is getting old and injury prone, it would have been a bigger risk than anything. And on top of that, not only was it in Dallas, but Marty Turco is a very charismatic guy as it is, you could have never had Hasek Mic'd Up the whole third period like they did with Turco

[eva unit zero 271]

True, I forgot about the topic of the thread. This is why you may have guys like McCabe, Gonchar and Souray potentially being allstars.

Gonchar is much better defensively than Souray or McCabe. While Gonchar is certainly not on the level of a guy like Lidstrom, or even in the range of a Zubov or Kaberle, he's not the kind of close your eyes and pray defender that McCabe and Souray are.

I've found there to be three basic kinds of scoring defensemen:

1) The kind who are capable of scoring but play defense well also. Lidstrom, Kaberle, Zubov, Pronger, Niedermayer, Rafalski, are a few examples of this kind of defenseman.

2) The kind who think offense first, but are average defensively. This would include guys like Schneider, Gonchar, Timonen, Blake are some examples of this kind of player.

3) The guy whose only purpose is to score points, who is a total defensive liability and often harms the team more than he helps, despite significant offensive contribution. This would be your Souray, McCabe, Ozolinsh, Tverdovsky. Any guy capable of playing the power play that on an average defensive team wouldn't also be seeing some PK time should be here.

[toby91_ca 620]

Gonchar is much better defensively than Souray or McCabe. While Gonchar is certainly not on the level of a guy like Lidstrom, or even in the range of a Zubov or Kaberle, he's not the kind of close your eyes and pray defender that McCabe and Souray are.

I've found there to be three basic kinds of scoring defensemen:

1) The kind who are capable of scoring but play defense well also. Lidstrom, Kaberle, Zubov, Pronger, Niedermayer, Rafalski, are a few examples of this kind of defenseman.

2) The kind who think offense first, but are average defensively. This would include guys like Schneider, Gonchar, Timonen, Blake are some examples of this kind of player.

3) The guy whose only purpose is to score points, who is a total defensive liability and often harms the team more than he helps, despite significant offensive contribution. This would be your Souray, McCabe, Ozolinsh, Tverdovsky. Any guy capable of playing the power play that on an average defensive team wouldn't also be seeing some PK time should be here.

I agree that he is not as bad defensively as McCabe and Souray, but he's pretty damn bad and I would probalby move him into the #3 category in your list.

Maybe it's just when he makes a mistake, they are incredibly bad mistakes, I don't know, but I just watch the guy and my heads spins at his ineptness in his own end sometimes.

....all-star weekend is fun and all, but in the end, Bettman sends who Bettman wants, just ask Chelios

Last time I checked, Bettman has absolutely no involvement in the selection process, other than the 2 commissioner picks, if they are still doing that.

[eva unit zero 271]

I agree that he is not as bad defensively as McCabe and Souray, but he's pretty damn bad and I would probalby move him into the #3 category in your list.

Maybe it's just when he makes a mistake, they are incredibly bad mistakes, I don't know, but I just watch the guy and my heads spins at his ineptness in his own end sometimes.

I generally reserve the #3 category for guys who don't just make bad mistakes, but they make a lot of them. Gonchar doesn't generally make a lot of mistakes...his failures just tend to be spectacular in nature.

[Guest jaytan]

As far as Dom last year not going and Turco going, despite some numbers: Like it or not Turco is a more solid goaltender these days than Dom is, he just has worse D in front of him. Dom is getting old and injury prone, it would have been a bigger risk than anything. And on top of that, not only was it in Dallas, but Marty Turco is a very charismatic guy as it is, you could have never had Hasek Mic'd Up the whole third period like they did with Turco

Got that right. At least Turco's the best goaltender on his team!

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

In your opinion, that may be true. Dom was number one in goals against average the entire season, minus a week or two. Since the team with fewer goals against generally wins, I tend to like that stat.

Save %age is over-rated, since it is largely controlled by the quality of shots and number of SOG. If the goaltender gets lots of shots and manages to stop most of them regardless of shot potential and difficulty, his %age will be better than that of goalie who sees fewer shots, but which are more likely to be scoring chances. See Brodeur's and Dom's stats this young season for an example of that trend.

Not for the first time, the politics of the All-Star venue ruled the reality more than the facts in the All-Star Show (it's not really a game). In 1996, Jim Kelley revealed on Prime Time Sports that Dominik Hasek was chosen as the game MVP but the POB overruled the vote because Ray Bourque scored the game winner and the game was in Boston, where Bourque played most of his career.

And Turco was selected by the same NHL authorities over Hasek because the game was in Dallas. There ya have it.

I still didn't want him to go anyway, it's the principle of the thing. But as someone said earlier, it's been a long time since the participants in the ASG were actually all-stars.

Would you mind telling that to Osgood then? This is in no way a knock on Dom, but Ozzie plays for the same team and gets the same benefit/tough luck of facing such few shots per game. So far Dom has 155 shots against in 7 games with a 0.877 SV% (and a 4-2-1 record), while Ozzie has faced 130 shots in 6 games with a 0.931 SV% (and a 6-0-0 record). Of course trends show that things will balance out as the season moves along, but currently Ozzie isn't falling into that group your describing.

The point of the thread is to discuss who is most deserving to go to the all-star game *right now* given the current season. There is no doubt Ozzie is more deserving.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Never Forget Mac #25

[puckloo39 5,686]

Would you mind telling that to Osgood then? This is in no way a knock on Dom, but Ozzie plays for the same team and gets the same benefit/tough luck of facing such few shots per game. So far Dom has 155 shots against in 7 games with a 0.877 SV% (and a 4-2-1 record), while Ozzie has faced 130 shots in 6 games with a 0.931 SV% (and a 6-0-0 record). Of course trends show that things will balance out as the season moves along, but currently Ozzie isn't falling into that group your describing.

The point of the thread is to discuss who is most deserving to go to the all-star game *right now* given the current season. There is no doubt Ozzie is more deserving.

Based on half-dozen or so games each has played so far in this whole month-long season, I don't know that Ozzie or Dom is more deserving. Of anything.

The team in front of Oz the past 5 games barely resembles the one in front of Dom. Give Dom a couple of 15 shot games with DHZ scoring like machines, take away the deflected goals off his own players, and the massive amounts of penalties which destroyed any chance of a decent game, and he'll look lots better. Especially take into account the lovely penalty parade he had to deal with in Anaheim. Ozzie's had no such "luck" thus far in the games he's played. The Wings have been clicking in front of him... they were not so good in the ones Dom faced earlier on.

Say what you want, not all games are equal. I stand by my opinion that all shots on goal are not equal, either. There is no measurement for shot quality or difficulty. Just some dude who is determining whether a stopped shot is a SOG, or not. More shots, easy shots and the numbers escalate = brilliant goalie!! Low shot count, one or two unstoppable goals caused by uncontrollable aspects of the game = bad goalie. We know which is which in Detroit at the moment, right?

Turco's not a better player than Ozzie or Dom, necessarily, back on the All Star subject. He was the home goalie in Dallas for the ASS (All Star Show) in Big D last season. Mr. Personality was also out in the first round (again, poor Dallas). Dom wasn't considered for the Vezina, but all four candidates, a couple of which he beat, were teeing up the little white ball while Dom was still playing, and in the process taking the Wings to the semis for the first time since he left in 02. Not a coincidence. Just something else for fans to dismiss as not relevant, somehow.

I understand the inclination for "everyone" to jump ship and run over and hop on the Ozzie Bandwagon. Wings fans like to win. Ozzie's winning, and that's great. I know what I know... and I for one am not quite ready to kick Hasek to the curb, since the likelihood that he was playing injured for at least half of the seven games he appeared in seems likely. Yeah, I know... no quarter, no mercy in Detroit. Pile on, while the piling is good, I guess. There's no reason for it, but it sure is fun!!!

[Guest jaytan]

You're being as acrobatic with logic as Hasek is in front of the net. At this point of the season, nobody sane would say he's been better than Osgood.

[puckloo39 5,686]

You're being as acrobatic with logic as Hasek is in front of the net. At this point of the season, nobody sane would say he's been better than Osgood.

beg your pardon, that's your opinion. No one who is paying attention to the facts would argue that the opposite. They would, however, jump on the opportunity to "prove" their point with very little evidence. No one ever said the average hockey fan was logical, however. Only in Detroit would anyone argue that Hasek is not as good a goalie as Ozzie. Not that either of them are anything to sneeze at, but seriously... what has Hasek done that's so terrible? He's got a winning record so far, unlike some top goalies (Brodeur) who do not.

At least I use logic in my posts, some of which you may not agree with... but that doesn't make it wrong, and it certainly doesn't make me insane.

However, you may have a point: one definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over again, and expecting a different result. Expecting some of you all to understand that a five game streak of wins does not erase 15 years of excellence by explaining it to you one more time is probably a futile exercise. It's certainly a waste of time.

Edited October 31, 2007 by puckloo39

[Offsides 21]

Generally speaking, I think the team opens up more offensively with Ozzie in net, I think they know what he'll do, and Ozzie is a good puck handler and moves the puck forward. It sounds weird, but I've always thought of Ozzie as a more offensive goalie, keeping the play going and so on.

It's not really a knock on Dom, but you can never know what he's going to do, and I feel like the defense pulls back more.

Either way, Dom will be fine, and Ozzie's doing great, so it's pretty cool, eh? I'm just glad to see that Ozzie CAN still start, and lead a team such as the Red Wings, much to the contrary of what many people seemed to think.

[Doggy 130]

Lots of Crosby hate. I guess that's a given when you become the best player in the world as a teenager.

[eva unit zero 271]

beg your pardon, that's your opinion. No one who is paying attention to the facts would argue that the opposite. They would, however, jump on the opportunity to "prove" their point with very little evidence. No one ever said the average hockey fan was logical, however. Only in Detroit would anyone argue that Hasek is not as good a goalie as Ozzie. Not that either of them are anything to sneeze at, but seriously... what has Hasek done that's so terrible? He's got a winning record so far, unlike some top goalies (Brodeur) who do not.

At least I use logic in my posts, some of which you may not agree with... but that doesn't make it wrong, and it certainly doesn't make me insane.

However, you may have a point: one definition of insanity is repeating the same action over and over again, and expecting a different result. Expecting some of you all to understand that a five game streak of wins does not erase 15 years of excellence by explaining it to you one more time is probably a futile exercise. It's certainly a waste of time.

And regardless of the past fifteen years, Osgood has outplayed Hasek thus far this season. I would argue that Osgood has been one of the two best goaltenders in the NHL thus far; only he and Boston's Tim Thomas have yet to allow more than two goals in a single game this season.

[puckloo39 5,686]

And regardless of the past fifteen years, Osgood has outplayed Hasek thus far this season. I would argue that Osgood has been one of the two best goaltenders in the NHL thus far; only he and Boston's Tim Thomas have yet to allow more than two goals in a single game this season.

they've both played 6-7 games each, and the games have not been comparable in terms of penalties and bad bounces/bad luck calls. I don't think this is exactly a definitive statement on who's better, unless one is just determined to be biased. They're both good.