HOMER

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

I don't think it's unfair to say Homer is riding Hank's coattails. If Hank (or Pav for that matter) isn't creating opportunities Homer doesn't get the chance to score those 'garbage goals'. This is completely different from Sammy just throwing the puck at the net.

Undoubtedly, a player who shoots a lot would gain a decent amount of assists from playing with a guy like Homer. However, a guy like Homer is going to benefit much more from a player who takes higher quality shots and has the ability to draw multiple defenders.

Using you logic, Homer should benefit more from playing with Sammy and Rex since they both shoot a lot. There is no way you can sit there straight-faced and tell me Homer would do as well playing with Sammy and Rex as he does with Hank and Pav. For that matter, he would do as well with any combination of of Pav/Hank or Sammy/Rex.

Dude, the line combo is a two way street. Of course playing with Pavel/Hank makes Homer more productive. But it is also true the other way around. Homer makes Hank and Pavel better. I think you're giving too little credit to Homer. For example, say Hank or Pavel score and Homer doesn't even touch the puck. If Homer isn't busting his ass off to block the goalie's sight, the goalie is more likely to make that save and no goal at all. There's a reason why they play together.... Babs isn't like "Homer sucks, so to make him playable we better put him on a line with our best forwards."

edit - spelling

Edited November 25, 2007 by Mudvayneowns91

[elriqo28 2]

And next time I hear "so-and-so is on pace for...", I just might shoot myself.

is that a promise?

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

I don't really see how you can say Homer has had only 2 good years with the Wings by just judging his point total. Sure, he didn't give you 30/30 a few years ago. But what the man did do was make it hell for the defense and the goalie. Without him being in front of the net (while getting a beating usually) I seriously doubt the Wings would've as much success. Also, he was a +8 and +11 in 03-04. So even though he wasn't scoring, it wasn't like he was doing a poor job.

The point is that he hasn't has 3 good seasons in which you can say he is a consistent 30 goal guy. The past three seasons he has put up 15/15/30 +8, 29/30/59 +14, and 30/22/52 +13. Just for reference in those 3 seasons Robert Lang was a +4, +17, and +12.

Dude, the line combo is a two way street. Of course playing with Pavel/Hank makes Homer more productive. But it is also true the other way around. Homer makes Hank and Pavel better. I think you're giving too little credit to Homer. For example, say Hank or Pavel score and Homer doesn't even touch the puck. If Homer isn't busting his ass off to block the goalie's sight, the goalie is more likely to make that save and no goal at all. There's a reason why they play together.... Babs isn't like "Homer sucks, so to make him playable we better put him on a line with our best forwards."

edit - spelling

That's a great example. Homer doesn't play that well with Z and D. He just drives goalies nuts. I can't remember what game it was before or after, but FSN had showed an interview with Homer. They were asking him what it's like playing with Z and D. He said he just tried to stay out of the way and give them the puck.

Not to take anything away from Homer, but he is getting too much credit. He isn't a a 30 goal guy. I've never said Homer sucks, or that Babs is only putting him on the line with Z and D because he sucks. Obviously he is there to play a role, one which he does very well. But you take either Z or D off that line and Homer is back to his 20/20 seasons. Regardless Homer could get 30, but so could Rex.

[T.Low 1,011]

Thoughts? I hate it when people say "he is on pace for...." What's the point? We all know he won't hit 45 goals. Speculation like that is pointless. He is riding the coattails of Hanks hot streak. Once Hank cools off (and he will) so will Homer, if you can even say he is hot.

Predictions? If Homer hits 30 it would be a surprise. He will most likely get 20-25. And next time I hear "so-and-so is on pace for...", I just might shoot myself.

Well, you're on pace to shoot yourself, then, because we both know that this forum is on pace to have at least 215 "on pace" threads by the end of the season. And thats an LGW record!

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

The point is that he hasn't has 3 good seasons in which you can say he is a consistent 30 goal guy. The past three seasons he has put up 15/15/30 +8, 29/30/59 +14, and 30/22/52 +13. Just for reference in those 3 seasons Robert Lang was a +4, +17, and +12.

That's a great example. Homer doesn't play that well with Z and D. He just drives goalies nuts. I can't remember what game it was before or after, but FSN had showed an interview with Homer. They were asking him what it's like playing with Z and D. He said he just tried to stay out of the way and give them the puck.

Not to take anything away from Homer, but he is getting too much credit. He isn't a a 30 goal guy. I've never said Homer sucks, or that Babs is only putting him on the line with Z and D because he sucks. Obviously he is there to play a role, one which he does very well. But you take either Z or D off that line and Homer is back to his 20/20 seasons. Regardless Homer could get 30, but so could Rex.

So then do you think that if you did take Homer off the line that Pavel/Hanks production would stay the same?

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

So then do you think that if you did take Homer off the line that Pavel/Hanks production would stay the same?

It depends on what type of player you put with them. If you put Sammy out there with them, then no. He shoots to much. But if you put say Franzen out there, I think there is going to be very similar numbers.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

Homer will score 30 goals easily. If he cant score 18 goals in the next 60 games, he shouldnt be on the top line. 40 isnt out of the question.

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

It depends on what type of player you put with them. If you put Sammy out there with them, then no. He shoots to much. But if you put say Franzen out there, I think there is going to be very similar numbers.

Maybe.... The effect that Homer has had while being on a line Z/Dats the last two years is pretty significant though. Last year Dats has his best season and this year Hank is on pace for a career year as well (also same with Homer). I feel they all make each other better, . I don't know if Franzie would have that same impact.

Edited November 26, 2007 by Mudvayneowns91

[VM1138 1,921]

Franzen would not have the same impact.

Who cares whether or not Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom is actually better than the others? The reality is, NONE of them are as good as when they are TOGETHER. Holmstrom has become a top line player. He scores goals, makes things happen on the ice, and is a solid two way player. Mixing the line up, regarldess of the other player, would not work. Those three have chemistry, and that just doesn't happen based on the level of skill on the line.

[toby91_ca 620]

Do Z and D benefit from H being on their line? Of course they do. H does all the dirty work and drives goalies crazy. Without him on that line, Z and D stats would not be as good (my opinion of course).

HOWEVER, I have to imagine that H (statistically) benefits more from being on that line. Separate them, I think everyone's stats fall, but Homer's would probably fall more than the other 2.

Saying this is just fact in my opinion (that doesn't even sound right). This doesn't say that Z and D do not benefit from H, but it is really just fact.

In terms of Homer, I don't think he gets 40 goals, possible, but highly unlikely. I think the chances of him getting 30 goals is greater than 50%, but nowhere near a lock.

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Maybe.... The effect that Homer has had while being on a line Z/Dats the last two years is pretty significant though. Last year Dats has his best season and this year Hank is on pace for a career year as well (also same with Homer). I feel they all make each other better, . I don't know if Franzie would have that same impact.

Z and D don't benefit from having (specifically) Homer on their line. Let me explain that statement.

Homer provides a body in front of the net, that does help out Z and D. But what you don't see is Homer setting these guys up. It's the other way around. Homer gets setup. That's just the nature of his game. It isn't Homer that is making an impact on that line as much as it is how he plays the game. Something that Franzen could do just as well even strength.

Franzen would not have the same impact.

Who cares whether or not Zetterberg/Datsyuk/Holmstrom is actually better than the others? The reality is, NONE of them are as good as when they are TOGETHER. Holmstrom has become a top line player. He scores goals, makes things happen on the ice, and is a solid two way player. Mixing the line up, regarldess of the other player, would not work. Those three have chemistry, and that just doesn't happen based on the level of skill on the line.

There is no denying that there is chemistry on that line, but I don't think it has much of anything to do with Homer. As I said before he isn't setting up plays, or really even making plays. He parks in front of the net, screens the goalie, and digs in the corners. Those are all things that Franzen could do just as well.

I think it's an easy out to say none of them are better separately as they are apart. But what happens when only one of them is taken away? When it's Z and D together, things still happen almost every shift. However, when you take away Z or D, the opportunities just don't seem to flow, and the chemistry is gone.

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

When Homer is in front of the net messing with the goalie/defense he takes some of the focus from our star players (Z/Dats). If Hank and Pavel are allowed better shots (result of Homer in front) then they will score more often. Or simply put Homer in front of net = more goals for Hank/Dats

Edited November 27, 2007 by Mudvayneowns91

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

When Homer is in front of the net messing with the goalie/defense he takes some of the focus from our star players (Z/Dats). If Hank and Pavel are allowed better shots (result of Homer in front) then they will score more often. Or simply put Homer in front of net = more goals for Hank/Dats

My point exactly. Homer isn't creating more opportunities for Z and D any more so than Franzen could in the same role.

[Inultus 12]

My point exactly. Homer isn't creating more opportunities for Z and D any more so than Franzen could in the same role.

Wrong. Homer practices and practices what he specifically does, and to not give him credit for being unique in his talents would be wrong. I emulate him when I play, he's my favorite current player and believe me his job isn't easy.

Even in the beer league I get the crap whacked outta me when I'm screening the goalie. As one of my teammates said, when I get a goal from a rebound, even though some people would call it a garbage goal, every goal counts and I worked my butt off for the goal.

Homer rocks and there is no one that can replace him, even Ryan Smyth. If you think otherwise then you disagree with the players who play with him. They have said flat out that he is the best at what he does. I happen to agree.

Edited November 27, 2007 by Inultus

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Wrong. Homer practices and practices what he specifically does, and to not give him credit for being unique in his talents would be wrong. I emulate him when I play, he's my favorite current player and believe me his job isn't easy.

Even in the beer league I get the crap whacked outta me when I'm screening the goalie. As one of my teammates said, when I get a goal from a rebound, even though some people would call it a garbage goal, every goal counts and I worked my butt off for the goal.

Homer rocks and there is no one that can replace him, even Ryan Smyth. If you think otherwise then you disagree with the players who play with him. They have said flat out that he is the best at what he does. I happen to agree.

I never said Homer isn't good at what he does. In fact, I believe I said he plays his role very well. But you are wrong to think that another player can't do the same job. I realize there is more to it than just standing there, but that isn't the debate. It's whether or not Homer is crucial to the success of ZDH. He is not. Plug in Franzen or any other big guy who can camp out front and you will see extremely similar results.

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

I never said Homer isn't good at what he does. In fact, I believe I said he plays his role very well. But you are wrong to think that another player can't do the same job. I realize there is more to it than just standing there, but that isn't the debate. It's whether or not Homer is crucial to the success of ZDH. He is not. Plug in Franzen or any other big guy who can camp out front and you will see extremely similar results.

Your whole arguement is based on something that hasn't even happened. I would be more inclined to agree if Homer was hurt and Franzen /some big guy was almost as or as successful replacing him. But that hasn't happened. To say that having a big guy in front of the net will automatically have success on our 1st line is pretty unrealistic.

[Inultus 12]

Plug in Franzen or any other big guy who can camp out front and you will see extremely similar results.

Really, cuz I seem to remember them trying exactly that with Bertuzzi and the results were not similar. I think that you are simply wrong, I guess there's no point in further debating it.

[eva unit zero 271]

Homer is the best fit for the third spot on that line. Franzen is not as good at that job as Homer is, but is a better skater and is better defensively. That logically would suit Franzen better than Homer to ANOTHER line, while Homer is better suited than Franzen for the top line. It's like arguing which of Huds or Flip do you play as a top-line winger if you split Dats and Z up? Hudler clearly; Flip might be the better player and might have the brighter future, but Hudler is easily the better scorer and is more comfortable on the wing than Flip.

[Zion 93]

Predictions? If Homer hits 30 it would be a surprise. He will most likely get 20-25. And next time I hear "so-and-so is on pace for...", I just might shoot myself.

You should shoot yourself now for saying something so stupid...

[PenaltyShot 96 521]

Homer's 9 PPG leads the league If he keeps doing his thing, he could get 30 goals this season, especially if the scoring fails to consistently spread beyond the 1st line.

Edited November 30, 2007 by PenaltyShot 96

[BringHomeTheCup! 0]

Your whole arguement is based on something that hasn't even happened. I would be more inclined to agree if Homer was hurt and Franzen /some big guy was almost as or as successful replacing him. But that hasn't happened. To say that having a big guy in front of the net will automatically have success on our 1st line is pretty unrealistic.

So tell me this, what is it about Homer on that line that is so great? What does he bring to the table? It isn't his defensive prowess. It isn't a wicked wrister. It isn't pin point accurate passing. Oh, that's right. He parks out in front of the net, and screens the goalie.

Again, I'm not saying that Homer is great at what he does. Just saying that you but another big body on that line, who can stand in front of the net, and the results will look quite similar. I could see your side of the argument if Homer was always setting up Z and D, but he doesn't. He gets set up, there is no denying that.

Really, cuz I seem to remember them trying exactly that with Bertuzzi and the results were not similar. I think that you are simply wrong, I guess there's no point in further debating it.

ZDH was together regularly from sometime around December until the end of the year. Bert was used sparingly on that line, but he wasn't in game shape. Bert was also used a bit on that line in playoffs to shake things up, but no one was scoring for the Wings, and he was injured. What's your point?

[Mudvayneowns91 0]

So tell me this, what is it about Homer on that line that is so great? What does he bring to the table? It isn't his defensive prowess. It isn't a wicked wrister. It isn't pin point accurate passing. Oh, that's right. He parks out in front of the net, and screens the goalie.

Again, I'm not saying that Homer is great at what he does. Just saying that you but another big body on that line, who can stand in front of the net, and the results will look quite similar. I could see your side of the argument if Homer was always setting up Z and D, but he doesn't. He gets set up, there is no denying that.

First off, there is NO ONE that is as good as Homer at "parking" in front of the net. Secondly, he's leading the WHOLE NHL in PP goals. Thirdly, Homer is doing more than just "parking" in front. That man gets the crap beat out of him in front and is still able to get a stick on the puck and then get it in the net. Fourth off, if Homer wasn't "parking" in front of the net then Z and Dats wouldn't be scoring the way they have. They all set each other up. Homer just does is a little less conventional. There's no denying that. That's what he brings to the Wings. However, I am still failing to see how you figure just some big body with Dats/Z = success. If that's the case, let's bring Scott Parker and dump him on the first line. Better yet, let's bring Laraque in and see what he can do. I think it's laughable you consider Homer as just some interchangeable big guy.

Edited November 30, 2007 by Mudvayneowns91