Are we physical enough to win a cup?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

No - nuf said.

I wouldn't be talking. The Flames so-called grit has gotten them two 1st round exits in a row.

[Son of a Wing 1,644]

nm

Edited April 2, 2008 by Son of a Wing

[Echolalia 2,961]

They also put a hurting on some of our players with their physical play. Hence why I think that we can win a cup but we aren't going to win it if the series comes down to physicality.

People say we didn't lose to the Ducks because of how physical they were. Well fine. But quit making excuses for bad luck. If we didn't lose because of physicality then why did we lose?

For as potent as our offense was we only outscored the Ducks 17-16 in goals for.

What's telling to me is that in 1 goal games we were 1-3. You can read whatever you want into that. Blame the 1 goal losses on Lilja or Franzen's clearing plays.

That's the easy thing to do because you can't put a statistic on how tired players are. You can't register how beat up guys are, especially in the 2 OT games we lost.

You can't prove or disprove that the physical nature of the Ducks had anything to do with them beating us.

Most people don't want to believe it had any effect because it shows a weakness the Wings may have. Furthemore they don't want to believe it because they know there's nothing we can do to outmuscle or be physically superior to the Ducks. So of course the easy thing to do is just say we stood up to them and physicality is not why we lost.

I don't really believe that. I think they pounded on us. I think we couldn't (not even Lidstrom) contain the Getzlaf line. Just rewatch the games. The Getzlaf, Perry, Penner line absolutely manhandled us in our own zone and how many crucial goals did they score?

You can't put a price on how important the physical aspect of the game is. I for one think it's huge.

I don't like the fact that the Ducks are taller, stronger and meaner almost to a man. I don't like that just about everyone in their lineup hits and many of whom hit freaking hard.

Being smaller and not as strong or good at dishing out punishment was a factor IMO. Will it be this year? I dunno. Drake and Stuart helps a ton. Downey and McCarty, well if they are playing I don't know if that's a good or bad sign.

It may have affected us; like you said, we'll never be able to gauge how exhausted our players were compared to them, and how much physicality contributes to that. But I think the fact that we didn't have two of our top three defensemen (neither injury came from physical domination in the playoffs), and the Ducks scored key goals at perfect moments to shift the momentum in their advantage was the key to that series, not the check count and the intensity thereof. We were minutes away from taking a commanding lead in the series and putting the Ducks up against the ropes (even with their dominant physical play), and they took a shot that took a timely deflection off Lidstrom's stick and into the back of the net to stay alive when they needed it the most. Then, Lilja (who may not have even been playing had we had our entire defensive lineup) lost the puck on a fluke play to none other than Selanne right in front of Hasek, to further gain momentum. I'm not taking anything away from the Ducks, but a deflection and a give away to die for from a 7th defensman in a relatively low pressure situation (and the momentum that build up from the resulting goals) cost us the series, and I think physical domination had little to do with either. But who knows, that may be where we differ.

Oh, and trust me, I'm not blinded by the Wings awesome prowess. I also said we won the Shark's series off timely goals and momentum alone, the same way we lost to the Ducks. And even though I said that we have the physicality to win the cup this year, I still don't think we're going to make it, because I don't think our team is as hungry for it as San Jose may be.

Edited April 3, 2008 by Echolalia

[thedisappearer 291]

We Are Borg.

We will add your biological and technological distinctiveness to our own. Your Culture will adapt to service us. RESISTANCE IS FUTILE.

Go Wings.

Go.

I submit to your will and await the Cup.

And probes. Anal probes.

[BlueMonk 102]

Maybe. I think Markov and Bertuzzi's presence will be missed. People can talk about Bert not contributing much, but I think the definitive moment of the playoffs belonged to him; when he body slammed Phaneuf into the ice and symbolically announced, "We're not taking any sh** off you motherf**kers."

They'll need a signature moment or two like that along the way if they're going to get to the SCF this year. I'm just not sure who it's going to come from. Being physical in the playoffs is essential. You gotta stand up to stuff to go deep.

[cirov19 1]

I don't think the aggresiveness will be a problem. If they play smart then they don't need to be as physical.

It would be great to be physical but there is nothing we can do. We are winning games now, and will continue winning through to the end of the playoffs.

As long as our team doesn't get injured it will hardly affect them. To keep yourself from getting hurt you have to play smart. We have a smart team.

It'll be good with Stuart and possibly D-Mac. I don't think we should put Downey in if the only contribution he is making is physically.

[Opie 308]

Maybe. I think Markov and Bertuzzi's presence will be missed. People can talk about Bert not contributing much, but I think the definitive moment of the playoffs belonged to him; when he body slammed Phaneuf into the ice and symbolically announced, "We're not taking any sh** off you motherf**kers."

They'll need a signature moment or two like that along the way if they're going to get to the SCF this year. I'm just not sure who it's going to come from. Being physical in the playoffs is essential. You gotta stand up to stuff to go deep.

OR

When Cleary lambasted Phanuef in the corner that led to the Draper goal immediately after, that to me was a much bigger play than anything Bert did.

Bertuzzi was non existent in a Wings Jersey, for the most part, Markov is a solid blueliner and I think Stuart is a very comparable replacement.

I don't think the loss of Bert or Markov or the combination of the two has anything to do with how far the wings make it, Markov was the #3 due to health of Kronwall, and even when Kronner was healthy Markov was #3.5, I understand what he added back there, and had the wings not added Stuart I would 100% agree with you.

[calfan 0]

I wouldn't be talking. The Flames so-called grit has gotten them two 1st round exits in a row.

But we're not talking about the Flames, we're talking about the Wings. We're not even talking about the Flames playing the Wings. And to the comment that the Wings are light on skill - what team have you been watching. The consensus all year has been that the Flames are a very skilled team that should have won far more games than it did. The consensus is also that this is not the physical team it used to be and the way to beat the Flames is to wear on them physically. Keenan even benched Juice because he's "too soft" in big games.

Nobody is going to say that Iginla and Phaneuf aren't gritty and they are certainly very skilled. Both are top 5, maybe top 3 in their position in the league. Kipper is still one of the best goalies in the league and if he still had the 04 Flames in front of him would probably have the best GAA in the league. The skill is there - I have no idea why they can beat anyone in the league on any given day and be beat by anyone in the league on any given day. There's an intangible there that just doesn't make sense.

Back to the Wings. Playoffs is a funny time and the Wings certainly are a contender to win it all. But from a physical standpoint, just about all of the other Western teams can play more physical than the Wings. There are bigger, stronger and faster teams out there than the Wings. The biggest problem for the Wings is a signficant part of their offense comes from two players who don't play well in big, physical games in the playoffs. I don't see why this year will be any different. Cleary and others are going to have to step up and make up for the drop-off in scoring or the Wings will exit yet again. There's a reason why Getzlaf et al ran over the Wings last year - bigger, stronger, faster. Add to that being one year older and there's no reason to believe they won't do it again.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

But we're not talking about the Flames, we're talking about the Wings. We're not even talking about the Flames playing the Wings. And to the comment that the Wings are light on skill - what team have you been watching. The consensus all year has been that the Flames are a very skilled team that should have won far more games than it did. The consensus is also that this is not the physical team it used to be and the way to beat the Flames is to wear on them physically. Keenan even benched Juice because he's "too soft" in big games.

Nobody is going to say that Iginla and Phaneuf aren't gritty and they are certainly very skilled. Both are top 5, maybe top 3 in their position in the league. Kipper is still one of the best goalies in the league and if he still had the 04 Flames in front of him would probably have the best GAA in the league. The skill is there - I have no idea why they can beat anyone in the league on any given day and be beat by anyone in the league on any given day. There's an intangible there that just doesn't make sense.

Back to the Wings. Playoffs is a funny time and the Wings certainly are a contender to win it all. But from a physical standpoint, just about all of the other Western teams can play more physical than the Wings. There are bigger, stronger and faster teams out there than the Wings. The biggest problem for the Wings is a signficant part of their offense comes from two players who don't play well in big, physical games in the playoffs. I don't see why this year will be any different. Cleary and others are going to have to step up and make up for the drop-off in scoring or the Wings will exit yet again. There's a reason why Getzlaf et al ran over the Wings last year - bigger, stronger, faster. Add to that being one year older and there's no reason to believe they won't do it again.

Did you even watch the playoffs last year?

[calfan 0]

Did you even watch the playoffs last year?

Yep - ya wanna be more specific? Are you talking about the Flameout, the play of the Ducks or the play of Henrietta and Pauline?

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Yep - ya wanna be more specific? Are you talking about the Flameout, the play of the Ducks or the play of Henrietta and Pauline?

The Flames and Sharks didn't look physical at all against us, and the Ducks beat us because of clutch goals and clutch goaltending, not because of grit. Also, we had 2 of our top 4 defensemen injured.

You're still thinking of the seasons before last year, when this team got outmuscled in the playoffs. Last year it was different.

[calfan 0]

The Flames and Sharks didn't look physical at all against us, and the Ducks beat us because of clutch goals and clutch goaltending, not because of grit. Also, we had 2 of our top 4 defensemen injured.

You're still thinking of the seasons before last year, when this team got outmuscled in the playoffs. Last year it was different.

I agree that the Flames and Sharks didn't look physical - that was the problem. The Flames are not the physical team they once were. As a team, they no longer punish players for touching the puck. And my comments last year on the Sharks were that if they played big, fast and physical (which they are as a team), then they should beat the Wings. If they don't, they won't. They didn't. If there was ever a team that doesn't play to its strenghts, its the Sharks. It will be interesting to see if they can find that style of play this year.

Last year was not all that different. The playoffs is a grind and injuries always play a role. Bigger players punish smaller players. Size and speed wear you down. Grinding in the corners wears you down. That's what makes the Ducks so good. They have the size to play the game on the boards and they have the speed and the playmaking dmen to play the game up the middle of the ice. They'll beat you either way. That's how they beat the Wings last year, that's how they will try to do it this year.

Beating the Wings is a simple strategy. Play tough against Datsyuk and Zetterberg and take them out of the game. Dump the puck to the corners and get on the Wings d and hurt them. Force them to turn and pound them into the boards. Force the game to the boards and grind. Simple strategy, but execution is key. The Flames and Sharks couldn't do it. The Ducks did. It's the key again this year.

Edited April 3, 2008 by calfan

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

I agree that the Flames and Sharks didn't look physical - that was the problem. The Flames are not the physical team they once were. As a team, they no longer punish players for touching the puck. And my comments last year on the Sharks were that if they played big, fast and physical (which they are as a team), then they should beat the Wings. If they don't, they won't. They didn't. If there was ever a team that doesn't play to its strenghts, its the Sharks. It will be interesting to see if they can find that style of play this year.

Last year was not all that different. The playoffs is a grind and injuries always play a role. Bigger players punish smaller players. Size and speed wear you down. Grinding in the corners wears you down. That's what makes the Ducks so good. They have the size to play the game on the boards and they have the speed and the playmaking dmen to play the game up the middle of the ice. They'll beat you either way. That's how they beat the Wings last year, that's how they will try to do it this year.

Beating the Wings is a simple strategy. Play tough against Datsyuk and Zetterberg and take them out of the game. Dump the puck to the corners and get on the Wings d and hurt them. Force them to turn and pound them into the boards. Force the game to the boards and grind. Simple strategy, but execution is key. The Flames and Sharks couldn't do it. The Ducks did. It's the key again this year.

I thought you said there were a bunch of teams that would outmuscle the Wings. Now you're only suggesting the Ducks to be the team that will do it, with which I'll agree with you.

My fear of the Ducks is their talent level in all areas, as opposed to their grit. That is one thing Wings fans have never had to worry over in the past, namely being more talented than the opposition. With the Ducks, it will be the first time someone is more talented than the Wings. The grit is secondary, and it all has to do with attitude, as the Sharks and Flames showed last year.

Edited April 3, 2008 by GMRwings1983

[calfan 0]

I thought you said there were a bunch of teams that would outmuscle the Wings. Now you're only suggesting the Ducks to be the team that will do it, with which I'll agree with you.

My fear of the Ducks is their talent level in all areas, as opposed to their grit. That is one thing Wings fans have never had to worry over in the past, namely being more talented than the opposition. With the Ducks, it will be the first time someone is more talented than the Wings. The grit is secondary, and it all has to do with attitude, as the Sharks and Flames showed last year.

Sorry - I was using last year as an example. I think the Ducks, the Sharks and the Flames all have the ABILITY to play more physical than the Wings. I know the Ducks will and the jury is out on the other two. I'm less sure of the Stars cuz I haven't seen them this year at all. Avs/Nucks would be even physically, but it wouldn't play to their strengths to try and pound the Wings.

My original answer to the original question is still no. The Wings can get to the SCF. I don't think they will and if they do, it won't be because they were more physical than other teams. It will be a combination of other factors.

[redwings56 1]

WOW,

Yep - ya wanna be more specific? Are you talking about the Flameout, the play of the Ducks or the play of Henrietta and Pauline?

Datsyuk was great last year in the playoffs. DON'T EVER PUT HIM DOWN ABOUT HIS PLAY LAST YEAR!

Hank was injured going into the playoffs, he was great too. What an ignorant opinion!

[Dominator2005 558]

So im sitting here yesterday nostalgic as ever as I watch my DVD of the Wings 02 cup win, and I couldn't help but notice how physical the Wings were during that series. My question to you all is: Do you all believe we are physical enough to win the cup this year?

If Bab's is going to let 5 - 7 min PT to Downey, McCarty and Drake - yes we can say that we are physical...

[calfan 0]

WOW,

Datsyuk was great last year in the playoffs. DON'T EVER PUT HIM DOWN ABOUT HIS PLAY LAST YEAR!

Hank was injured going into the playoffs, he was great too. What an ignorant opinion!

They didn't play big in the big games.

2007 Playoff clutch scoring

I don't think my opinion is ignorant. I spent some time researching what they did and the fact is they didn't contribute as much as you might think. Go look at the stats and form your own opinion. But don't suggest I don't have an informed opinion.

[Opie 308]

Not to side with Calfan but Z and D were nearly invisible on road games, they put up good numbers, but most of those numbers were at home.

Not saying I think they are playoff busts or anything.

[dallas27 7]

Doesn't matter how physical they are, is the goaltending (Hasek) and the scoring going to hold up? If both do they can win the cup.

[chrisdetroit 189]

Exactly.

Boy I must be stupid. I saw the topic and clicked on it anyway hoping to not here the same "we are not tough enough" drivel.

Everybody said the same thing when we played Calgary and then again when we played San Jose.

We lost BARELY against the Ducks without our #2 and #3 D-men.

We proved last year that we ARE tough enough. Since then we have added Staurt, Downey and McCarty. And we have Kronwall back. We lost Lang and Schneider who definitely aren't tough guys, Markov who is and Bert who did nothing for us.

We also added a big forward in Kopecky. So we are bigger and tougher than last year by anybody's account.

Logic then says that if everybody stays healthy we have a very good shot.

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

Not to side with Calfan but Z and D were nearly invisible on road games, they put up good numbers, but most of those numbers were at home.

Not saying I think they are playoff busts or anything.

You know what, if you're going to criticize the team like that, just go root for Anaheim and Brian Burke.

[therock48880 14]

You know what, if you're going to criticize the team like that, just go root for Anaheim and Brian Burke.

Way to overreact. So, because he stated a fact (that Datsyuk and Z didn't play well on the road) he should become a Ducks fan? I guess maybe I should become one also because one of the Wings' biggest weaknesses last year was the lack of production from the top line on the road.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Maybe. I think Markov and Bertuzzi's presence will be missed. People can talk about Bert not contributing much, but I think the definitive moment of the playoffs belonged to him; when he body slammed Phaneuf into the ice and symbolically announced, "We're not taking any sh** off you motherf**kers."

They'll need a signature moment or two like that along the way if they're going to get to the SCF this year. I'm just not sure who it's going to come from. Being physical in the playoffs is essential. You gotta stand up to stuff to go deep.

I dont think so at all. I lament the fact that we lost some good size up front, with Lang, Bertuzzi, and Calder being gone, but lets face it. Outside of maybe 3-4 games for Lang, and 1-2 games for Bertuzzi, out of the 18 that we played, they were pretty non-existant. I wont even start talking about Calder. If anything, I think losing them is an advantage. Why? Because we put more energetic and hungry players in their place and give them more ice time. IMO, we cut a lot of fat off of this team and are more edgier because of it. Ill be much happier seeing the likes of Cleary, Flip, and Franzen getting the ice time that Bertuzzi and Lang wouldve gotten were they still here. Defensive liabilities all-around.

The way Ill remember Bertuzzi is how he coughed up the puck in our own zone and it cost the Wings dearly. IMO,

[FinRedWing 172]

There's a reason why Getzlaf et al ran over the Wings last year - bigger, stronger, faster. Add to that being one year older and there's no reason to believe they won't do it again.

Lack of hunger could be one. There's no way they're as hungry as they were last year.

"Win it for Teemu" doesn't work anymore.

Western Conference is so tight,"wanting it more" will be a huge advantage.

And next week there will be 7 teams that want it more than the Ducks.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

But we're not talking about the Flames, we're talking about the Wings. We're not even talking about the Flames playing the Wings. And to the comment that the Wings are light on skill - what team have you been watching. The consensus all year has been that the Flames are a very skilled team that should have won far more games than it did. The consensus is also that this is not the physical team it used to be and the way to beat the Flames is to wear on them physically. Keenan even benched Juice because he's "too soft" in big games.

Nobody is going to say that Iginla and Phaneuf aren't gritty and they are certainly very skilled. Both are top 5, maybe top 3 in their position in the league. Kipper is still one of the best goalies in the league and if he still had the 04 Flames in front of him would probably have the best GAA in the league. The skill is there - I have no idea why they can beat anyone in the league on any given day and be beat by anyone in the league on any given day. There's an intangible there that just doesn't make sense.

Back to the Wings. Playoffs is a funny time and the Wings certainly are a contender to win it all. But from a physical standpoint, just about all of the other Western teams can play more physical than the Wings. There are bigger, stronger and faster teams out there than the Wings. The biggest problem for the Wings is a signficant part of their offense comes from two players who don't play well in big, physical games in the playoffs. I don't see why this year will be any different. Cleary and others are going to have to step up and make up for the drop-off in scoring or the Wings will exit yet again. There's a reason why Getzlaf et al ran over the Wings last year - bigger, stronger, faster. Add to that being one year older and there's no reason to believe they won't do it again.

Actually, no. The Wings offense starts and ends with Niklas Lidstrom, followed shortly by Rafalski, and finally Kronwall. You want to know why we couldnt score last year in the playoffs? All you have to do is look at how much the Wings scored when all of their Top 4 Dmen were out this season. Missing Kronwall and Schneider (the only time we were missing both was ironically when we were playing Anaheim and, in Game 5, couldnt score on a few 5 on 3 chances to put the game away. Again, having only 1 offensive Dman in your lineup will do that to you.) We live and die with our outlet passes. Fortunately, Lidstrom, Rafalski, and Kronwall make up a dream-team of smooth passing skilled defenseman - probably the best in that regard.

As Ive stated and stated and for some reason, will state again, the Wings depend on their system first, their defense second. After that comes all else. Goaltending, physicality, scoring, you name it.

Look at the Top 4 teams last year. Detroit was one of them. Did they have top 4 goaltending? doubtful. Did they have a Top 4 forward corps? Not really. Were they top 4 in physical presence? Big head shake. Why were they a top 4 team? Because their defense makes it easier on their forwards, because their system makes it harder for the opposition to be in position of the puck in the offensive zone, and because their puck possession style means the Wings are often getting rid of the puck before the opposing team comes to whack them.

Detroit is not a physical team. It probably wont ever be again, because the system they use is probably the most consistently effective one in the league. What Detroit is, however, is a smooth-working machine. Without a doubt, the smartest team in the league. Holland has assembled a team with players that are built to serve the system, not to play somebody elses crash and bang style. Thats not how they win.

Edited April 3, 2008 by YoungGuns1340