Finding the Right Balance

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

For those of you that have been around for a few years I'm sure you all remember the Barnes Brothers (RyanBarnes! and Barnes52) who preached team toughness and the "right" players to be successful in the postseason. After watching what happened to our boys in 2006 I started to see this point, and was extremely concerned for the 2007 run. Even though Babs had the team playing grittier than we'd seen in a decade, the team ultimately fell to an even tougher team in Anaheim. That being said, that loss seemed to answer a scary question within the Wings franchise.....the team needs to get back those sizeable skill guys they had in years past. Those types of players were the ones that helped fuel the Wings to the Cup, and it was no secret heading in to last years playoffs that even though the skill was there, the size was missing.

Now, here we are....1 year later, in the exact same position the Wings were in last year....playing in the WCF's for the right battle it out 1-on-1 for the Stanley Cup (but hopefully this year with different results). As I was thinking about this years team versus last years as well as last years Anaheim team versus this years Dallas team, one question came to mind: Can/Have the Wings skill players adapted their game enough to be able to put themselves over the top?

It sure seems like the Wings are doing something right that wasn't taking place from 2003-2006, and I would like to think its Babs' approach to the game and how he wants every single one of his players (including the skill guys) to play. Just watching the way Dats plays speaks volumes about what Babs has taught this team. If you notice Datsyuk even during last years regular season he always seemed to shy away from the majority of physcial contact. Now, it seems like he not only thrives on it, but he's the one who looks to get physical with his opponent first.

Long story short? Do you think skill players such as the Zetterberg's and Datsyuk's can adapt to becoming all-around players that bring strength and skill to a team, or is the Barnes Brothers Theory cut and dry (I.E. Big, Skill guys from the beginning, not small guys being taught new tricks)?

Edited May 6, 2008 by Never Forget Mac #25

[egroen 384]

There is a playoffs highlight reel on FSN that shows a Wings player decking another player and I am always amazed... "Holy crap! That was Datsyuk!" whenever I see it.

Last year Zetterberg and Datsyuk especially learned to stay on their skates when hit, this year they are both giving it back, and quite effectively. This year, even Hudler seems to be staying on the puck a lot more than in the past.

You can't teach natural "skill", but I think you can teach/train "toughness".

Edited May 6, 2008 by egroen

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

There is a playoffs highlight reel on FSN that shows a Wings player decking another player and I am always amazed... "Holy crap! That was Datsyuk!" whenever I see it.

Last year Zetterberg and Datsyuk especially learned to stay on their skates when hit, this year they are both giving it back, and quite effectively. This year, even Hudler seems to be staying on the puck a lot more than in the past.

You can't teach natural "skill", but I think you can teach/train "toughness".

Thanks for the reply.....I was starting to wonder.

While I tend to agree that you can teach/train "toughness" how do you feel about players falling back on their natural instincts in the end? I know some will argue that a once soft, skill player playing with a chip on their shoulder will eventually balance off and return to their natural type of play or they won't be enough of a physical threat to put their team over the top.

Do you (and everyone else for that matter) feel that guys like Zetterberg and Datsyuk, who will never be as big as Fedorov was can be taught enough toughness to put them over the top, when they were never brought up playing that way?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

You know what.....I guess we'll see in a month.

[egroen 384]

I think it's a great topic.

Yzerman was taught it... and it stuck. It depends on the person and the team.

Concerning Datsyuk and Zetterberg, I always hear they are incredibly hard working. That is one key. Babcock is the other. He came in and alienated a lot of players with his "accountability"... but now that this is his team, and it appears the players have bought into his sytem, I think it will stick.

Babcock says it a lot in interviews, when younger players look at not only the veterans, but also the top skill guys and see how hard they work, check, etc... it is contagious. It sets the standard. Zetterberg and Datsyuk (so far) seem like those Lidstrom and Yzerman type guys that lead by example.

[Opie 308]

Hey,

If Greg Maddux can switch up his game, why not Z and D.

If they play in a system long enough and the coach has them working at being tougher, than yeah it can happen that they can learn to play that way.

Look at Jordan, when he first made it to the playoffs the Pistons would literally beat the s*** out of him and then he couldn't beat them. His desire to win was such that he hit the gym, bulked up, learned to take a beating, then eventually learned to use his physical strength. Think about the winning shot he hit over Bryan Russell of the Jazz, he pushed him off with his off hand and was free for his famous pull up Jumper.

I think if the player makes a commitment to the style the coach and or team wants than the player can adapt/change his game. Perfect example, Yzerman! Bowman wanted a defense first game out of him. Granted it is not as drastic as going from hittee to hitter. But still players have shown that they can adapt. I see no reason why Dats and Z can't become more physical. Now they will never make it to the ranks of a Scott Stevens type physical hitter, but if they learn body control (which both obviously have a lot of with the puck on their stick) when giving and receiving a hit, that can change their game/success/style dramatically.

[Opie 308]

I think it's a great topic.

Yzerman was taught it... and it stuck. It depends on the person and the team.

Concerning Datsyuk and Zetterberg, I always hear they are incredibly hard working. That is one key. Babcock is the other. He came in and alienated a lot of players with his "accountability"... but now that this is his team, and it appears the players have bought into his sytem, I think it will stick.

Babcock says it a lot in interviews, when younger players look at not only the veterans, but also the top skill guys and see how hard they work, check, etc... it is contagious. It sets the standard. Zetterberg and Datsyuk (so far) seem like those Lidstrom and Yzerman type guys that lead by example.

That my friend is the biggest reason this transition is possible IMO. Babcock can want them to play that way all he wants, but if they don't have the desire/work ethic/ tenacity to make it work it won't.

As a fan I love nothing more than when the Superstars on my team are the hardest working guys as well, that leads to success and lots of times it leads to other players playing over their head. Because they see these guys working so hard they can't help but work harder.

To me when reporters talk about the ability of a player to make others around them better a lot of that comes back to how hard of a worker they are in practice. How many times do you hear people say A.I makes players around him better, now how many times do people say that about KG. There are athletes throughout history that make others better, and to me that is because they earn respect by busting their ass, and then when they ask a player to do something extra for them or the team, the player has no problem because he sees his teams star player busting his ass to get better.

[vladdy16 2,154]

Pavel's transformation has astounded me - it's been nothing short of amazing. I long bemoaned the fact that he would get pushed off the puck like a little girl and begged that he lift some weights or something in the off season. Seems my prayers were answered in a big way. However, it takes a certain kind of skill player to adapt to or adopt a more physical game. I think there will always be a need for players like Kronwall in the game.

PS: I really miss the Barnes Bros. and Co. Some real entertaining posting went on.

[bringback91 2]

Pavel's transformation has astounded me - it's been nothing short of amazing. I long bemoaned the fact that he would get pushed off the puck like a little girl and begged that he lift some weights or something in the off season. Seems my prayers were answered in a big way. However, it takes a certain kind of skill player to adapt to or adopt a more physical game. I think there will always be a need for players like Kronwall in the game.

That's another thing right there. The wings have added a whole lot of grit and toughness that wasnt' there last year. Kronwall and Stuart are huge on the back end for the Wings. They add an element to the D that the Wings haven't had, keeping guys on edge, weather that's exiting there own zone, or entering the Wings zone those guys can hurt you. And IMO Dats and Z aren't your normal skill players. Everytime a question or critisim of their game seems to pop up, it gets answered. I mean these guys have the skill of the best Euro's in the leauge, mixed with the will and heart to match any north american player, which seemed to be a big question mark. Toughness and grit have been debated and discussed on here in great lenght, but to me it's not fighting. It's taking hits to make plays, taking sticks to the face, blocking shots, making hits, battling on the boards, ect. and if you want to see it in action look no farther than Z and Dats. But it's way deeper than that. Draper in the Nashville series was a mad man, laying hits taking hits, just making the right plays. And for all the s*** he takes around here Sammy DOES play with an edge to his game, no he's not Cam Neeley, but the guy battles and has the ability to score and make plays. I think that last game was a springboard and i look for a BIG series from him. I think will and heart are just as important as grit, and this seems to be a team full of it. And not to be a jinx or anything, but really, who the hell is going to have an answer for the Mule?!? And it's not like you can game plan for him, cause you can't give an inch to Z or dats. I give credit to babs for sure, but these guys are making themselves what they are, and that's a huge threat to any team.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

That's another thing right there. The wings have added a whole lot of grit and toughness that wasnt' there last year. Kronwall and Stuart are huge on the back end for the Wings. They add an element to the D that the Wings haven't had, keeping guys on edge, weather that's exiting there own zone, or entering the Wings zone those guys can hurt you. And IMO Dats and Z aren't your normal skill players. Everytime a question or critisim of their game seems to pop up, it gets answered. I mean these guys have the skill of the best Euro's in the leauge, mixed with the will and heart to match any north american player, which seemed to be a big question mark. Toughness and grit have been debated and discussed on here in great lenght, but to me it's not fighting. It's taking hits to make plays, taking sticks to the face, blocking shots, making hits, battling on the boards, ect. and if you want to see it in action look no farther than Z and Dats. But it's way deeper than that. Draper in the Nashville series was a mad man, laying hits taking hits, just making the right plays. And for all the s*** he takes around here Sammy DOES play with an edge to his game, no he's not Cam Neeley, but the guy battles and has the ability to score and make plays. I think that last game was a springboard and i look for a BIG series from him. I think will and heart are just as important as grit, and this seems to be a team full of it. And not to be a jinx or anything, but really, who the hell is going to have an answer for the Mule?!? And it's not like you can game plan for him, cause you can't give an inch to Z or dats. I give credit to babs for sure, but these guys are making themselves what they are, and that's a huge threat to any team.

And make no mistake, I am not referring to fighting one bit. This about toughness, not dropping the mits.

[Opie 308]

That's another thing right there. The wings have added a whole lot of grit and toughness that wasnt' there last year. Kronwall and Stuart are huge on the back end for the Wings. They add an element to the D that the Wings haven't had, keeping guys on edge, weather that's exiting there own zone, or entering the Wings zone those guys can hurt you. And IMO Dats and Z aren't your normal skill players. Everytime a question or critisim of their game seems to pop up, it gets answered. I mean these guys have the skill of the best Euro's in the leauge, mixed with the will and heart to match any north american player, which seemed to be a big question mark. Toughness and grit have been debated and discussed on here in great lenght, but to me it's not fighting. It's taking hits to make plays, taking sticks to the face, blocking shots, making hits, battling on the boards, ect. and if you want to see it in action look no farther than Z and Dats. But it's way deeper than that. Draper in the Nashville series was a mad man, laying hits taking hits, just making the right plays. And for all the s*** he takes around here Sammy DOES play with an edge to his game, no he's not Cam Neeley, but the guy battles and has the ability to score and make plays. I think that last game was a springboard and i look for a BIG series from him. I think will and heart are just as important as grit, and this seems to be a team full of it. And not to be a jinx or anything, but really, who the hell is going to have an answer for the Mule?!? And it's not like you can game plan for him, cause you can't give an inch to Z or dats. I give credit to babs for sure, but these guys are making themselves what they are, and that's a huge threat to any team.

I think that is what is so good about this team! Babs realizes that Lids, Dats, Z, Cheli, Draper, Drake are all assistant coaches on the ice. He lets his players have an impact on the game physically and mentally, without feeling like he is giving up control to the players. He is being a players coach (a term that has always bugged me) yet at the same time he is doing it within his system. Also the right guys are there to make the system work and to work within the system.

I am not so sure players like Yashin and players of that same ilk would work for Babs or Det. They are too involved with their own success and not willing to use every attribute they have to help the team. Dats and Z (Z is a superstar and can't go anywhere in Sweden without being recognized ) are very happy to be less of a media superstar, as long as it leads to team success. Lots of players just want to play their game (Jagr) and will not change their game for their team, coach, or org. They will just demand to get traded or wait to be a free agent and head where the money is.

[bringback91 2]

And make no mistake, I am not referring to fighting one bit. This about toughness, not dropping the mits.

Oh I know, I was just flashing back to the debate days and there seemed to be a misconception that the only way to be tough and gritty had to include fighting. But honestly the Wings have improved in that reguard as well. While they have guys who will square off right at center ice in Mac, Donwey, Drake, pain train, cleary (although not now due to injury), guys just don't back down. When a scrum breaks out and some punches start throwing, the Wings answer back. I mean we've seen Dats get guys in headlocks, Sammy's popped some guys in the face, Mac drop the gloves when a players acting a ass, Cleary getting in there even with the face, Hudler mixing it up. I guess i could've just said the Wings just wont back down like may have happened in the past, but i'm bored. hahahah

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

All those discussing will and heart, I couldn't agree more with. That being said, I do think there are different levels of will and heart that generally aren't attained without adversity and failure. What I mean by that is last year, although heartbreaking might turn out to be the absolute best thing for this Red Wings franchise going forward. The Wings seemed to have all the pieces last year to win it all, ran into the injury bug, and ultimately lost when they were so close. That type of let-down can stick with a person and make them work/train all the more harder to ensure they're doing everything they can to not let it happen again. Now you add a Kronwall and Stuart to the mix this playoff year and the Wings back-end looks completely different than last year. Missing Kronner for last years playoffs has now proven to be absolutely devastating given the level of play he's exhibited thus far through 2 rounds. Couple that with another solid, physical Dman that makes the opposition think about something other than scoring (Sidenote: I still love the Vladdy Quote...."I don't need to score goals, I just need to get the other guy to not think about scoring goals") and you've got a much tougher defense to penetrate along with a much faster paced scoring attack simply based on puck-moving ability due to skill.

All in all, the need for the Kronner's and Stuart's will always be there, but the adaptation and the will/heart of guys like Z and especially Dats is probably whats fueling the fire of this Red Wings machine.

Sidenote: I'm really glad I started this thread. This is has been one of the more interesting hockey conversations I've been a part of lately.

Edited May 6, 2008 by Never Forget Mac #25

[irishtemper14+25 11]

yea i agree, you dont need to get goons....you need to get what babs calls "team toughness"

now that the wings skilled guys have learned to be physical, they gut under the skin of opposing players and when they go for a big hit either the wings player will avoid it or move the puck and set up a goal because they are out of position defensively, (like the goal where forsberg tried to hit someone real hard).

[Texas Wingnut 0]

As so many others have said toughness does not always mean fighting. Watching the "skill guys" go in an battle along the boards and fight through checks shows how tough and hard they play. Being hard to knock off the puck, going into the corners and along the boards, taking slashes & crosscheck without retaliating shows more toughness than dropping the gloves.

[Turkey 0]

I've been really pleased with the tough play, hitting, etc from the skill guys. Datsyuk has stood out the most in this respect, as far as I'm concerned. I definitely think you can teach toughness to skill guys. It will be interesting to see if Filpulla gets grittier in the same way. I also think it would be interesting to watch Hudler. I could see him turning into a real pest. Hitting just enough to piss 'em off.

As for the Barnes bros, I remember them well. I just assumed that their hands exploded when they typed the word "grit" for the millionth time. I kid! I kid!

[HockeyCrazy3033 168]

Since the last post season run the Wings haven't taken crap from any teams. It's amazing because most of the time it feels like the Wings are initiating the physical contact. Having the likes of Stewie, Drake, and D-Mac defintiely helps. And look at Kronwall, he's absolutely steam rolling everyone on the opposite end. He's been fantastic and when pair him and Stewie together you just know that the opposing forwards are trying to keep their heads up.

Pavel has definitely transformed and added grit to his game. He's been literally knocking a lot of guys of the puck and it's been amazing to see. When you see a guy like Pav doing it, you know the rest of the team is going to step up physically as well. Just look at Flip in Game 3 against the Avs. I remember it was with 1:30 or so left on the clock and the Avs were about to ice it and Flip literally knocked the guy down on his ass *I forgot who it was* negated the icing, and then went on to keep the puck in the Avs zone to kill off precious time. It's plays like that which make a huge difference. This Wings team has so much heart and determination and it shows in their physical play that they've been lacking prior to the last season and beyond. When you mix the Wings playing with grit, heart, and determination with their amazing puck possession style of hockey, it's a deadly combination for the opposing team.

Edited May 6, 2008 by HockeyCrazy3033

[Casey 145]

A little extra toughness is always welcomed. I think right now they have almost the perfect blend of tough and skill, but there is room for a little bit more.

I have a weird definition of toughness, I guess. I'm a medical student by trade, but a knifemaker and metallurgist by hobby. Toughness when talking about metals is the ability to take hard impacts, but not break or chip. A tough blade can cut through a nail without chipping. A tough player can take the hits and keep moving.

That kind of toughness is something every team needs. It can be taught to an extent, but a major part is simply what the player is as a man. Some bend in times of trouble. Some break. Some roll with the punch and keep moving.

I think the Wings just about have it right.

[Frozen-Man 144]

Thanks for the reply.....I was starting to wonder.

While I tend to agree that you can teach/train "toughness" how do you feel about players falling back on their natural instincts in the end? I know some will argue that a once soft, skill player playing with a chip on their shoulder will eventually balance off and return to their natural type of play or they won't be enough of a physical threat to put their team over the top.

Do you (and everyone else for that matter) feel that guys like Zetterberg and Datsyuk, who will never be as big as Fedorov was can be taught enough toughness to put them over the top, when they were never brought up playing that way?

I think that they can be taught enough toughness if they can be surrounded by other guys who have that toughness. I think that is one of the areas that guys like Kronvall, Mule, Homer, Downey, Drake, and especially Chelios help. To me it doesn't have to be the ability to hit and take hits exactly it is the ability to thrive through adversity of which Chelios is one of the models. Yzerman was never overly physical but I don't know that I have ever seen anyone tougher than he was. It is the ability to make the right play even though you know that you are going to get hit, or the willingness to block a shot you know is going to hurt and then get back up time and time again. That is why I think guys like Downey and Drake help this team as well (even if they are not on the ice). Those guys really help guys like Dats and Z to have the snarl that helps their game and when they see those guys take up and defend them I think it helps them to feel more obliged to do the same for those guys.

Edited May 6, 2008 by Frozen-Man

[Yemack 1]

I don't mind we go for more toughness and more size but where are we going to get those guys with skill level of Datsyuk and Zetterberg? (or even Sammy?) Right now, the only way we can stay competitive is to scout Europeans like no other. Also our picks are way way down at draft. We will never ever get our hands on those big skilled guys.

We can either get tough guys with no skill or skilled guys with less toughness. We will have to teach one to be better in other area no matter what kind of players we get.

As for just argument's sake, yeah, toughness is one area I wish we have more. However Wings are in WCF for 2 straight year and the result speaks for themselves. Beside toughness did Ducks and Sharks really good this year don't you think?

Actually I don't really care much for Wing's supposed lack of toughness. I wish we inject more snipers into our system though. If we convert half of our chances to the score board, Wings will school everyteam everytime regardless of toughness IMO.

[Kp-Wings 3]

Toughness has always been a sensitive issue for me regarding the Wings, because I've always felt they've lacked it, even into this season. I mean, when you're realying on guys like Lilja and Kopecky to be your big hitters, it's, for all things considered, slim pickings (in other words, there isn't much to go around).

Given what I've seen so far out of this years playoff run, I am more comfortable. It helps that Anaheim is out of the mix, and it would help even more if Philly was out as well, but that's beside the point. What matters is that it's the Wings players that have taken it upon themselves to make their image of a more physical team.

As far as the Wings players are concerned, they have all turned up the physical play to a great level during the playoffs this year. Kronwall has really stepped up. Drake has stepped up. Franzen has stepped up, in more ways then just scoring (he's been more physical in my opinion). McCarty has stepped it up. All of these guys have really become a big part of the team for their physical play, and making the Wings an all around tougher and harder team to play against.

I think the only real weakness on this team, and this may surprise some people that I single out this particular catagory, is the bottom pair of defense. I don't know what's wrong with Chelios, but he's really starting to show his age (and giving his critics more firepower). Between the giveaways and defensive blunders, he's not looking good. Lebda has really shown how redundant of a player he is, because he does nothing that helps the team, besides keeping Lilja out of the lineup.

...and as far as Lilja as concerned? You might as well give him to the other team, because it sure doesn't look like he's trying to help the Wings win. The fact that I can single him out and say what an awful, no, make that horrendous game he had during the 8-2 blowout is about as much evidence to that as I'll need. When you hammer a team by that much, you shouldn't have to actually say how bad one of the players on the winning side played, but in his case, it was.

Last year Lilja fooled us all into thinking he was a legitimate NHL defenseman with his play during the playoffs (up until the Anaheim series), but this year his true colors are finally being shown. If the Wings actually do re-sign him next year, it'll only be because he has dirt on either Holland or Babcock, and forced (read: blackmail) them into a contract. Holland is a smart man, and if he isn't taking notice of how bad he's playing, then officially paint me surprised.

Off topic ranting aside, I don't think toughness is the issue. If the Wings play physical like the way they have been, particularly the players I singled out for their excellent physical play, they should be able to handle anything that is thrown at them. I see something in this Wings team that I haven't see in a long time, so hopefully, they prove themselves and take home the Cup this year.

[Doggy 130]

So, these guys were big Ryan Barnes fans? I liked him too. Shame he never was able to step to NHL level.