Some good news for Red Wings

[dallas27 7]

I think that we could have him for less than $4M (around $3M home discount)... He's from Flint, 6'2" great skater, can score some goals, great def. forward...

I would rather have Rolston at $3M - $4M than Sundin or Hossa for $7M - $8M...

Being from Flint one can only assume that he would be a great skater seeing as he had to routinely dodge bullets growing up

[betterREDthandead 58]

Umm, not really. Somebody came along with a sound argument, not just a prediction that a player will slow down and lose his edge after X amount of time.

NN's argument is a lot sounder-sounding to me than the other stuff. I don't care how you slice it, I don't care what numbers you bring to the table, the following is undeniable:

- Rolston will get older.

- Rolston's power play time would decline in Detroit.

- Rolston's ice time would decline in Detroit.

- Rolston's linemates would be less talented in Detroit. (Not playing with Marian Gaborik any more, whose offensive skills are on a similar level as Z and D.)

Wordsmith it all you like, get fancy about Ray Whitney's power play time or whatever, but you can't convince me those four factors will keep his production the same as it was in Minny.

[chrisdetroit 189]

I think that we could have him for less than $4M (around $3M home discount)... He's from Flint, 6'2" great skater, can score some goals, great def. forward...

I would rather have Rolston at $3M - $4M than Sundin or Hossa for $7M - $8M...

He's looking for 4-5Mil and you think that he'll settle for 3? You're kidding right?

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Horse s***. There's nothing straw about it.

My argument was and is that Rolston would be going from a primary role to a secondary role. His three years in Minny he's been #1 or #2 in TOI for forwards. The three years before that in Boston he was top 3. That will not continue. He won't get anywhere NEAR 20min+/gm like he's seen for the past 6-7 years.

And he won't get over a minute more PP time than the rest of our 2nd unit. He's not going to kick Nick, Raf, or Nik off the point and that's what he's been playing. And that's where he's racked up 39 of his goals the last three seasons.

His role and icetime will be drastically reduced. If you don't think his numbers will reflect that, you're deluding yourself.

And as far as strawmen go, the bolded section is a delicious bit of irony.

So youre basically saying Rolston can't kick Sammy off the point? Cause last time I checked, teams generally have 4 point men. And Kronwall's set up ability is equal to that of Johnsson or Burns'.

As for your 20 minutes a game kick, why dont you bring up the fact that almost 4 of those 20 minutes in his time with Boston was spent on the PK? In fact, the only time in Rolstons last 3 years where he was with Boston when he had 19 minutes a game as opposed to 20, he had 3 minutes of SH time a game as opposed to 4.

You're so intent on saying Rolston has always been a 1st liner, but you fail to acknowledge his distribution of ice time.

In 03 with Boston, he was #5 in ES TOI, #4 in PP TOI, #1 in PK TOI

In 02 with Boston, he was #5 in ES TOI, #3 in PP TOI, #1 in PK TOI

In 02 with Boston, he was # 8 in ES TOI, #1 in PP TOI, #1 in PK TOI

On the Red Wings Rolston would likely be #4 or #5 in ES TOI, #4 or 5 in PP TOI, and likely # 6 or 7 in PK TOI. So basically, your "he wouldn't get half the minutes in Detroit he has over his career" is again, a fallacy and a straw man argument. The majority of minutes you'd be taking away from Rolston in his time with Boston - a team thats offensive depth was much more comparable to the Wings today than Minnesotas is or ever was - would be PK minutes. Last time I checked, those aren't big stat padding minutes.

Also, something I found rather interesting, is that in his last year with Boston, Rolston saw 2:48 average of PP TOI. Sammy saw 2:43 PP TOI this year. Rolston that year scored 31 goals. Sammy scored 11.

Finally as for your suggestion that Rolston wouldn't get a minute more than anyone else on the 2nd PP unit is purely conjecture being used as fact. Rolston would be a better point man or slot man (using the wrister) than anyone else on the team. The only reason we have a steady degradation of ice time amongst 5 forwards after the first PP unit is because there are no standouts amongst Cleary, Franzen, Hudler, Flip, and Sammy. Franzen has only begun to rise to the top, but not long enough for it to come through in the season-long stats. Rolston is the better talent on the PP that any of those 5 players and would be a standout amongst those players. Babcock would recognize that and make use of Rolston accordingly, where Brian would likely be a mainstay to the 2nd unit while Babcock rotated the other 3 forwards on the unit again to see if anyone would claim that roster spot for good.

[betterREDthandead 58]

As for your 20 minutes a game kick, why dont you bring up the fact that almost 4 of those 20 minutes in his time with Boston was spent on the PK? In fact, the only time in Rolstons last 3 years where he was with Boston when he had 19 minutes a game as opposed to 20, he had 3 minutes of SH time a game as opposed to 4.

You're so intent on saying Rolston has always been a 1st liner, but you fail to acknowledge his distribution of ice time.

In 03 with Boston, he was #5 in ES TOI, #4 in PP TOI, #1 in PK TOI

In 02 with Boston, he was #5 in ES TOI, #3 in PP TOI, #1 in PK TOI

In 02 with Boston, he was # 8 in ES TOI, #1 in PP TOI, #1 in PK TOI

On the Red Wings Rolston would likely be #4 or #5 in ES TOI, #4 or 5 in PP TOI, and likely # 6 or 7 in PK TOI. So basically, your "he wouldn't get half the minutes in Detroit he has over his career" is again, a fallacy and a straw man argument. The majority of minutes you'd be taking away from Rolston in his time with Boston - a team thats offensive depth was much more comparable to the Wings today than Minnesotas is or ever was - would be PK minutes. Last time I checked, those aren't big stat padding minutes.

I love this. All this stuff about what he did in Boston and you don't even mention the results. Check his scoring in Boston and you'll see you've proven exactly what NN is saying.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

NN's argument is a lot sounder-sounding to me than the other stuff. I don't care how you slice it, I don't care what numbers you bring to the table, the following is undeniable:

- Rolston will get older.

- Rolston's power play time would decline in Detroit.

- Rolston's ice time would decline in Detroit.

- Rolston's linemates would be less talented in Detroit. (Not playing with Marian Gaborik any more, whose offensive skills are on a similar level as Z and D.)

Wordsmith it all you like, get fancy about Ray Whitney's power play time or whatever, but you can't convince me those four factors will keep his production the same as it was in Minny.

Rolston didn't play with Gaborik. He was centered by Todd White in his first 2 seasons with the Wild. He was then centered by Bouchard in his third season, and the internet this season was littered with quotes about how Rolston insisted that he and his linemates had no chemistry and how much he missed Todd White, who was his BFF. Rolston and Gabby are both RWs, and Gabby was centered by Demitra, and Koivu occasionally when Demitra went into one of his fits about hating to play center.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I love this. All this stuff about what he did in Boston and you don't even mention the results. Check his scoring in Boston and you'll see you've proven exactly what NN is saying.

You mean how 25% of his ice time can come from the PK and he can still manage 20-30 goals? Ok...

Youre the smart guy that thinks Rolston is on a regular line with Gabby...

[Systemfel 33]

Rolston didn't play with Gaborik. He was centered by Todd White in his first 2 seasons with the Wild. He was then centered by Bouchard in his third season, and the internet this season was littered with quotes about how Rolston insisted that he and his linemates had no chemistry and how much he missed Todd White, who was his BFF. Rolston and Gabby are both RWs, and Gabby was centered by Demitra, and Koivu occasionally when Demitra went into one of his fits about hating to play center.

I'm pretty sure Rolston didn't play RW. Bouchard, who really hasn't played a lot of center in the NHL, did.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Except the Wings.

Datsyuk - Zetterberg - Holmstrom. Rolston isn't bumping any of those.

Franzen - Filppula - Cleary. These are Babcock's golden boys. Good luck, Brian!

The Wings are the last place Rolston should look unless he wants to be a 3rd liner and ride coattails to a shot at the Cup. He's a solid player on a weak team, but there aren't any teams out there deeper than us.

Right. Rolston is going to not even make the PP. Filppula wasn't even a mainstay on our 2nd PP unti last year, yet some how hes Babcock's golden boys? Is that how he wound up with less average time than Sammy, Franzen, Hudler, and Cleary, of which 2 of the latter were playing in Flips position?

As for the whole argument, you should look at my original point. Yours is that the Wings shouldnt sign Rolston because he is a 3rd liner on the Wings. My argument is that there is no point to a discussion of Rolston on the Wings, due to his contract terms not matching up with what the Wings want this year. And also that he's a 2nd liner. Which he is. And a bona fide one at that.

[betterREDthandead 58]

You mean how 25% of his ice time can come from the PK and he can still manage 20-30 goals? Ok...

Youre the smart guy that thinks Rolston is on a regular line with Gabby...

In four full seasons in Boston he averaged 57 points.

In three full seasons in Minny he averaged 67 points.

Sounds like a pretty significant drop to me.

20-30 goals? He only topped 20 goals in two of four seasons in Boston.

And guess who else the Wings don't have? His BFF Todd White.

Oh yeah: Rolston is a left winger, not right.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

I'm pretty sure Rolston didn't play RW. Bouchard, who really hasn't played a lot of center in the NHL, did.

Yes he did. Again. I dont know why people are posting this sort of thing when they aren't even clear on who Rolstons linemates have been for the past 3-6 years. This is from an article printed around February/March:

"He was the quintessential Wild centerman, I thought. He was the perfect Wild centerman," said Rolston, referring to the fact Wild centers must think defense first. "Whitey was really good defensively. He played in his zone so well and bailed me out of a lot of situations defensively."

"He was always looking for me," Rolston said. "And I knew that. And that makes a difference. It makes a difference when you have somebody like that giving you the puck. He knew every time he got the puck that I'd be opening up somewhere to get the shot. And he got it to me. And I knew he'd get it to me."

"Our line pretty much stayed together, but this year, we haven't found that consistency and Jacques has had to change our line a lot trying to find the right mix," Rolston said. "With Whitey, we jelled well as a line."

Rolstons centers last season were Bouchard and Pouliot

Edited June 27, 2008 by YoungGuns1340

[norrisnick 1]

So youre basically saying Rolston can't kick Sammy off the point? Cause last time I checked, teams generally have 4 point men. And Kronwall's set up ability is equal to that of Johnsson or Burns'.

As for your 20 minutes a game kick, why dont you bring up the fact that almost 4 of those 20 minutes in his time with Boston was spent on the PK? In fact, the only time in Rolstons last 3 years where he was with Boston when he had 19 minutes a game as opposed to 20, he had 3 minutes of SH time a game as opposed to 4.

You're so intent on saying Rolston has always been a 1st liner, but you fail to acknowledge his distribution of ice time.

In 03 with Boston, he was #5 in ES TOI, #4 in PP TOI, #1 in PK TOI

In 02 with Boston, he was #5 in ES TOI, #3 in PP TOI, #1 in PK TOI

In 02 with Boston, he was # 8 in ES TOI, #1 in PP TOI, #1 in PK TOI

On the Red Wings Rolston would likely be #4 or #5 in ES TOI, #4 or 5 in PP TOI, and likely # 6 or 7 in PK TOI. So basically, your "he wouldn't get half the minutes in Detroit he has over his career" is again, a fallacy and a straw man argument. The majority of minutes you'd be taking away from Rolston in his time with Boston - a team thats offensive depth was much more comparable to the Wings today than Minnesotas is or ever was - would be PK minutes. Last time I checked, those aren't big stat padding minutes.

Also, something I found rather interesting, is that in his last year with Boston, Rolston saw 2:48 average of PP TOI. Sammy saw 2:43 PP TOI this year. Rolston that year scored 31 goals. Sammy scored 11.

Finally as for your suggestion that Rolston wouldn't get a minute more than anyone else on the 2nd PP unit is purely conjecture being used as fact. Rolston would be a better point man or slot man (using the wrister) than anyone else on the team. The only reason we have a steady degradation of ice time amongst 5 forwards after the first PP unit is because there are no standouts amongst Cleary, Franzen, Hudler, Flip, and Sammy. Franzen has only begun to rise to the top, but not long enough for it to come through in the season-long stats. Rolston is the better talent on the PP that any of those 5 players and would be a standout amongst those players. Babcock would recognize that and make use of Rolston accordingly, where Brian would likely be a mainstay to the 2nd unit while Babcock rotated the other 3 forwards on the unit again to see if anyone would claim that roster spot for good.

Do you even know why Sammy is on the point?

Bolded is more deliciousness regarding strawmen.

Hudler and Franzen are most definitely standouts on the PP. And Sammy is on the point with Nik.

Rolston is an all-around bad fit for Detroit. He's not significantly better than anyone he'd be replacing yet he's going to be $2-3M/yr more expensive. People need to get this notion that just because someone is from Michigan and/or they played at one of the two big schools that they're are automatically good for Detroit to pursue.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Do you even know why Sammy is on the point?

Bolded is more deliciousness regarding strawmen.

Hudler and Franzen are most definitely standouts on the PP. And Sammy is on the point with Nik.

Rolston is an all-around bad fit for Detroit. He's not significantly better than anyone he'd be replacing yet he's going to be $2-3M/yr more expensive. People need to get this notion that just because someone is from Michigan and/or they played at one of the two big schools that they're are automatically good for Detroit to pursue.

Haha, what? Rolston is probably the BEST fit for Detroit in free agency right now. Speedy still at his age, great skater, energetic, fairly gritty and plays strong defense.

As for knowing why Sammy is on the point. Yes. Its because we have no other options. Franzen has been a standout on the PP, yes, in his stretch run. We'll see if that holds up. Otherwise, our 2nd unit "standouts" don't exactly have strong competition.

[norrisnick 1]

Right. Rolston is going to not even make the PP. Filppula wasn't even a mainstay on our 2nd PP unti last year, yet some how hes Babcock's golden boys? Is that how he wound up with less average time than Sammy, Franzen, Hudler, and Cleary, of which 2 of the latter were playing in Flips position?

As for the whole argument, you should look at my original point. Yours is that the Wings shouldnt sign Rolston because he is a 3rd liner on the Wings. My argument is that there is no point to a discussion of Rolston on the Wings, due to his contract terms not matching up with what the Wings want this year. And also that he's a 2nd liner. Which he is. And a bona fide one at that.

He'd make our 2nd PP, but not the 1st like he's used to.

My argument is that Rolston would be an expensive 2nd tier player and thus a pointless acquisition. If you agree, good.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

He'd make our 2nd PP, but not the 1st like he's used to.

My argument is that Rolston would be an expensive 2nd tier player and thus a pointless acquisition. If you agree, good.

Jesus. If thats all you needed to say then fine. My argument was that he was a bona fide 2nd liner regardless of where he plays. I never insinuated that the guy was worth 5M nor that we should sign him.

[VM1138 1,921]

He'd make our 2nd PP, but not the 1st like he's used to.

My argument is that Rolston would be an expensive 2nd tier player and thus a pointless acquisition. If you agree, good.

I'd rather pay Rolston 4 million than Filpulla right now. And we've seen that picking up veterans tends to bode well for us, so I don't really buy any bashing his age.

[norrisnick 1]

Haha, what? Rolston is probably the BEST fit for Detroit in free agency right now. Speedy still at his age, great skater, energetic, fairly gritty and plays strong defense.

As for knowing why Sammy is on the point. Yes. Its because we have no other options. Franzen has been a standout on the PP, yes, in his stretch run. We'll see if that holds up. Otherwise, our 2nd unit "standouts" don't exactly have strong competition.

Apart from the whole being a 2nd liner (on our team) looking for first line money for multiple years. That's a horrible fit. Speed is the first thing that goes with age. Woe be the team that signs Rolston for 3 years and expects the wheels to be there throughout.

Except that 4 of our 2nd unit are locked in tight. Franzen is the Homer. Hudler is the Datsyuk. Kronner is the Lidstrom. Sammy is the Raf. If all four are healthy they won't budge off the second unit. The only potential spot for Rolston is that 3rd forward spot that he'd share with Filppula and Cleary who I'm sure you've noticed Babcock loves like sons.

All the spots Rolston would want to fill are already occupied. Which is why he's a bad fit for us.

[norrisnick 1]

I'd rather pay Rolston 4 million than Filpulla right now. And we've seen that picking up veterans tends to bode well for us, so I don't really buy any bashing his age.

Good thing that's at least $1M high for Fil. Who is bashing? He'll turn 36 this season and the biggest asset he brings is speed. It's foolish to assume he'll keep the wheels as he's approaching 40.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

He'd make our 2nd PP, but not the 1st like he's used to.

My argument is that Rolston would be an expensive 2nd tier player and thus a pointless acquisition. If you agree, good.

There is no way you can say for certain that he would not make our first PP... you move around players so that you have two lethal power play units instead of just one. Rolston could most likely be had for what Franzen will be making in a year, yet Franzen is a 2nd tier player? I am not all for Rolston because he is from Michigan, that's just convenient seeing as in he may want to come here in FA. I am all for Rolston because I have the general view-point that he would add scoring to our team and balance our lines out even more. And yes, I can see Cleary being bumped to the third pairing.

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Rolston - Franzen - Filppula

Hudler - Draper - Cleary

Maltby - Helm - Samuelsson/McCarty/Downey

That just makes our four lines even more balanced and each line has some potential to score at least, but we still retain the grinding lines, and muckers.

[SwedeLundin77 460]

Good thing that's at least $1M high for Fil. Who is bashing? He'll turn 36 this season and the biggest asset he brings is speed. It's foolish to assume he'll keep the wheels as he's approaching 40.

But you want Sundin at 38?

And Rolston's biggest asset is not only his speed but he has a wicked and accurate shot too. Oh and he is smart defensively, oh and he is a leader.... oh yeah, but he'd be a terrible pick-up.

And just for the record, i'm not against getting Sundin, I just think it makes the age thing a moot point.

Edited June 27, 2008 by SwedeLundin77

[norrisnick 1]

There is no way you can say for certain that he would not make our first PP... you move around players so that you have two lethal power play units instead of just one. Rolston could most likely be had for what Franzen will be making in a year, yet Franzen is a 2nd tier player? I am not all for Rolston because he is from Michigan, that's just convenient seeing as in he may want to come here in FA. I am all for Rolston because I have the general view-point that he would add scoring to our team and balance our lines out even more. And yes, I can see Cleary being bumped to the third pairing.

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Rolston - Franzen - Filppula

Hudler - Draper - Cleary

Maltby - Helm - Samuelsson/McCarty/Downey

That just makes our four lines even more balanced and each line has some potential to score at least, but we still retain the grinding lines, and muckers.

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Lidstrom - Rafalski

Certainty.

Franzen is a 2nd tier player.

[norrisnick 1]

But you want Sundin at 38?

And Rolston's biggest asset is not only his speed but he has a wicked and accurate shot too. Oh and he is smart defensively, oh and he is a leader.... oh yeah, but he'd be a terrible pick-up.

And just for the record, i'm not against getting Sundin, I just think it makes the age thing a moot point.

One year and one year only. And that's only if there's no way we can sign Hossa. Sundin is the #2 option for me.

Sundin is a significantly better player than Rolston so I agree that age is moot.

[thedisappearer 291]

Zetterberg - Datsyuk - Holmstrom

Lidstrom - Rafalski

Certainty.

Franzen is a 2nd tier player.

Am I the only one who would put Franzen on the 1st PP as of right now?

[eva unit zero 271]

Being from Flint one can only assume that he would be a great skater seeing as he had to routinely dodge bullets growing up

Brian Rolston.

Born in Flint.

Raised in Ann Arbor.

[norrisnick 1]

Am I the only one who would put Franzen on the 1st PP as of right now?

If you take Homer away from Z and Pavel you may as well trade him as he'd be useless.