Top 10 Red Wings of the Last 15 years?

[eva unit zero 271]

He definitely gets overshadowed by Howe and Lindsay for the Red Wings -- but all those guys were arguably the best at their position in their generation. Delvecchio was definitely behind Beliveau, Mikita, Richard and possibly even Keon.

Delvecchio is comparable to Abel in the overall scheme of things, though Abel had a better prime (won a Hart), even though Delvecchio played much longer. But both are great two-way centers and leaders.

I would argue Delvecchio was better. Abel's Hart season? He tied Ted Lindsay for the team lead in scoring at 54 points in 60 games. Lindsay missed ten games, Howe missed 20, scoring 37 in 40 games. Abel would have been third on the team in scoring had his linemates not been injured. Tying for the team lead is the only case where Abel ever led the team in scoring; he definitely should not have won the Hart is it's obvious Howe and Lindsay were far more important to that team. But neither of the two is among the two greatest centers to play for the club; it's arguable whether the names Delvecchio and Abel even belong in the top three among Detroit centers when you have to consider guys like Yzerman, Fedorov, and Ullman on the list.

[Guest Shoreline]

Alright, my semi-serious list (this is for fun anyways):

1. Steve Yzerman (there's no winning the first cups without him, and no possible leading up to the success before the 97 cup win, without him -- I consider him the best hockey player of all time, screw Gretzky and Lemieux)

2. Nicklas Lidstrom

3. Brendan Shanahan

4. Sergei Fedorov

5. Igor Larionov

6. Pavel Datsyuk

7. Ray Sheppard

8. Paul Coffey

9. Chris Osgood

10. Dino Ciccarelli

Honorable mentions: Vladdy, Kris Draper, Kirk Maltby, Tomas Holmstrom, Henrik Zetterberg (just started off, not as consistent year in and year out, yet, as the players above), Chris Chelios. Probably some others. Wings have a solid foundation of contributors, smallest to largest, who are the cause. Aside of Yzerman and Lidstrom, it's hard to say how much of an impact not having the rest would've had, since it the players meshed well as a team, more-so than individually.

Edited July 17, 2008 by Shoreline

[Guest Crymson]

I agree with DOGGY in that the talent we had in 2002 probably would've been enough to have won the Cup without our beloved Captain.

Without Yzerman, we'd surely have lost in that first round against Vancouver.

[betterREDthandead 58]

So, if you were asked to name the top 10 Pistons in the past 15 years, would Joe D. make your list?

Of, if you were asked to name the top 10 Lions in the past 15 years, would Barry make your list?

Here's why I ask:

Joe D. played in 7 out of the past 15 years

Barry played in 6 out of the past 15 years

Vladdy played in 6 out of the past 15 years

Not a fair comparison. By definition the Pistons have far fewer players to choose from. And neither of those teams had anything even close to remotely resembling the success the Wings have had; the Lions were mediocre for the first half of it and indescribably, unfathomably s***ty in the last 7. The Pistons were bad in the first part, and spent about 7 or 8 years in the misguided teal era when there was Grant Hill and a lot of people pretending to be real NBAers.

In other words the Wings have A LOT more to choose from. Barry and Joe D. have to be picked because who are you going to use: Christian Laettner and Charlie Batch?

[CopenhagenWing 38]

I'll admit I have a bias against the guy - not for leaving in 2003, I couldn't have cared less when that happened. I always thought it he was below Yzerman, Shanahan, and Lidstrom on the importance pillar.

He had so much natural talent, but it always seemed to me like he took nights off. He didn't have as much passion for the game as Yzerman or Shanahan. If he did, he would have been a much better player for a lot longer.

"In those big games - all playoff games - Sergei came and he came hard. And people would say,"Why doesn't he do that all the time?" My opinion was, he's like a racehorse - just put him in the big races. Why make him a plow-horse? He had so much talent and was so exciting. We're still going to win our 55 to 60 games, let that horse run when we need it.

That's just my thoughts, and Scotty Bowman understood that, too. When we played Colorado, all of a sudden you'd see Scotty whisper to Sergei, "Who's the best player on the ice? Is it Fedorov or is it Peter Forsberg?" Or if Stevie's out hurt and Sergei was going up against Joe Sakic, you'd never know which one Scotty would match him up with, but he'd just say, "Sergei, who's the best one?" And watch him go. It was exciting."

Doug Brown quote from What it means to be a Red Wing.

1. Lidstrom

2a. Fedorov

2b. Yzerman

[Yzerfan1999 81]

"In those big games - all playoff games - Sergei came and he came hard. And people would say,"Why doesn't he do that all the time?" My opinion was, he's like a racehorse - just put him in the big races. Why make him a plow-horse? He had so much talent and was so exciting. We're still going to win our 55 to 60 games, let that horse run when we need it.

That's just my thoughts, and Scotty Bowman understood that, too. When we played Colorado, all of a sudden you'd see Scotty whisper to Sergei, "Who's the best player on the ice? Is it Fedorov or is it Peter Forsberg?" Or if Stevie's out hurt and Sergei was going up against Joe Sakic, you'd never know which one Scotty would match him up with, but he'd just say, "Sergei, who's the best one?" And watch him go. It was exciting."

Doug Brown quote from What it means to be a Red Wing.

1. Lidstrom

2a. Fedorov

2b. Yzerman

Thats exactly what I am talking about, he had the skill and ability to be the #1 player on the Wings every night, and he just wasn't. Yzerman was the plow-horse, doing it every night leaving it all on the line. Thats why he is more valuable to this team over the last 15 seasons then Fedorov.

[Opie 308]

"In those big games - all playoff games - Sergei came and he came hard. And people would say,"Why doesn't he do that all the time?" My opinion was, he's like a racehorse - just put him in the big races. Why make him a plow-horse? He had so much talent and was so exciting. We're still going to win our 55 to 60 games, let that horse run when we need it.

That's just my thoughts, and Scotty Bowman understood that, too. When we played Colorado, all of a sudden you'd see Scotty whisper to Sergei, "Who's the best player on the ice? Is it Fedorov or is it Peter Forsberg?" Or if Stevie's out hurt and Sergei was going up against Joe Sakic, you'd never know which one Scotty would match him up with, but he'd just say, "Sergei, who's the best one?" And watch him go. It was exciting."

Doug Brown quote from What it means to be a Red Wing.

1. Lidstrom

2a. Fedorov

2b. Yzerman

I am sorry was this quote supposed to be in defense of feds, because it lowered my opinion, the players even admitted he played when he wanted.

That quote just made me think Doug Brown thinks Feds is Randy "I play when I want" Moss, that wasn't extremely complimentary in my opinion!

As a teammate I would be pissed to see him go balls to the walls one night give it all he has and then the next three games he is not working as hard, I would be pissed and say "HEY Assface, if you can play that hard last game why not tonight, just because it is not Peter Forsberg across the ice doesn't mean you get the night off!!"

[therock48880 14]

Not a fair comparison. By definition the Pistons have far fewer players to choose from. And neither of those teams had anything even close to remotely resembling the success the Wings have had; the Lions were mediocre for the first half of it and indescribably, unfathomably s***ty in the last 7. The Pistons were bad in the first part, and spent about 7 or 8 years in the misguided teal era when there was Grant Hill and a lot of people pretending to be real NBAers.

In other words the Wings have A LOT more to choose from. Barry and Joe D. have to be picked because who are you going to use: Christian Laettner and Charlie Batch?

So, make the list smaller. Is Joe D in the top 5 pistons in the past 15 years?

Is Barry in the top 3 of the past 15 years?

I answer yes to both.

It all comes down to longevity I suppose. Some people (myself included) say Gayle Sayers was one of the best RB's of all time, even though he didn't play long. Others say he isn't because he didn't play long enough. Leaving Vladdy off the list of top players just seems insane to me. Scotty even said after the 95-96 season that Vladdy was the best hockey player in the world. I just think people forget how completely dominating Vladdy was, which is too bad, because he was awesome.

[betterREDthandead 58]

So, make the list smaller. Is Joe D in the top 5 pistons in the past 15 years?

Is Barry in the top 3 of the past 15 years?

I answer yes to both.

It all comes down to longevity I suppose. Some people (myself included) say Gayle Sayers was one of the best RB's of all time, even though he didn't play long. Others say he isn't because he didn't play long enough. Leaving Vladdy off the list of top players just seems insane to me. Scotty even said after the 95-96 season that Vladdy was the best hockey player in the world. I just think people forget how completely dominating Vladdy was, which is too bad, because he was awesome.

No to Joe D., yes to Barry.

Barry was so astronomically better than any of these schmoes the Lions have had that even one good year of Barry would be good enough for top 3.

Longevity is huge IMO and you can count me among those who won't place Gale Sayers on the all time list. "Would-have" isn't the same as "did."

Top 5 Pistons: Hill, Hamilton, Billups, B. Wallace, Stackhouse.

All have six years as a Piston in those 15, except for Stackhouse who has 5. Dumars also has six in that time, and each of those 5 outdid Dumars in their six years.

[Opie 308]

Not that I am a Lions fan, BUT.....

If you include one year that Barry Sanders was on the team in your range he should automatically be #1.

Because he was the best back in the league when he was playing, had he played 2 more seasons he was easily going to be the best back the game had ever seen!!!!!!

[eva unit zero 271]

I am sorry was this quote supposed to be in defense of feds, because it lowered my opinion, the players even admitted he played when he wanted.

That quote just made me think Doug Brown thinks Feds is Randy "I play when I want" Moss, that wasn't extremely complimentary in my opinion!

As a teammate I would be pissed to see him go balls to the walls one night give it all he has and then the next three games he is not working as hard, I would be pissed and say "HEY Assface, if you can play that hard last game why not tonight, just because it is not Peter Forsberg across the ice doesn't mean you get the night off!!"

Ok, so if he goes that hard all the time, then what? Does he get ripped for not stepping it up in the playoffs when other players' games are moving to a higher gear and his isn't?

Name me one player, EVER, who played his best hockey every night in the regular season and didn't step it up even further in the playoffs or in big games, who didn't get criticized as a choker or at the very least labeled as 'not a clutch performer'

Fedorov, even on 'off nights' was still one of the best players in the league.

Pavel Datsyuk was widely criticized for not stepping his game up in the playoffs. He is considered an elite two-way forward and one of the best centers in the world. Guess what? Pavel's average regular season performance isn't as good as Sergei's 'off nights' that you refer to.

Think about that.

How good was Fedorov, if he was CRITICIZEDfor 'only' playing as well as Datsyuk plays right now? Datsyuk is commended for his hard work...Fedorov was called lazy simply because he had the ability to, in big games, push it to another gear that was just unreal.

[Yzerfan1999 81]

Ok, so if he goes that hard all the time, then what? Does he get ripped for not stepping it up in the playoffs when other players' games are moving to a higher gear and his isn't?

Name me one player, EVER, who played his best hockey every night in the regular season and didn't step it up even further in the playoffs or in big games, who didn't get criticized as a choker or at the very least labeled as 'not a clutch performer'

Fedorov, even on 'off nights' was still one of the best players in the league.

Pavel Datsyuk was widely criticized for not stepping his game up in the playoffs. He is considered an elite two-way forward and one of the best centers in the world. Guess what? Pavel's average regular season performance isn't as good as Sergei's 'off nights' that you refer to.

Think about that.

How good was Fedorov, if he was CRITICIZEDfor 'only' playing as well as Datsyuk plays right now? Datsyuk is commended for his hard work...Fedorov was called lazy simply because he had the ability to, in big games, push it to another gear that was just unreal.

No player plays his best hockey every night - you're right, but its hard to argue that guys like Yzerman didn't put their best effort out there every game - sure, you can be off from time to time, but I don't think its too much to ask a player making millions to give 100% every night. Yzerman is a better Wing in the last 15 years because A) he played more seasons with them and was more devoted to the team, and B) He didn't have to be told when to step it up.

There is no doubt that Yzerman is a better all-time hockey player then Sergei Fedorov, so why is there even an argument that Feds was a better Wing? There is a difference between having the potential to be the best player on the ice, and actually going out every night, no matter the night, and busting your ass to the best of your ability.

edit: sp

Edited July 17, 2008 by Yzerfan1999

[Opie 308]

Eva,

I wasn't criticizing his skill level, I was criticizing his work ethic, I though that was pretty obvious!

[betterREDthandead 58]

Barry was so astronomically better than any of these schmoes the Lions have had that even one good year of Barry would be good enough for top 3.

Longevity is huge IMO and you can count me among those who won't place Gale Sayers on the all time list. "Would-have" isn't the same as "did."

Realizing that these sound a little bit conflicted. I mean that one year of Barry Sanders is literally a greater accomplishment than any career Lion effort over the last 15 years. With a few exceptions:

Herman Moore

Chris Spielman

that one year where Scott Mitchell played out of his mind and set every Lions passing record in existence (95 I think)

[omnipotent_hudler 0]

yeah i don't really see why people are putting Zetterberg ahead of Datsyuk. The guy appears to have more raw talent but he has not been as consistent and has had more injury trouble than he has had

[norrisnick 1]

yeah i don't really see why people are putting Zetterberg ahead of Datsyuk. The guy appears to have more raw talent but he has not been as consistent and has had more injury trouble than he has had

Z has more raw talent than Datsyuk? No.

[egroen 384]

Pavel Datsyuk was widely criticized for not stepping his game up in the playoffs. He is considered an elite two-way forward and one of the best centers in the world. Guess what? Pavel's average regular season performance isn't as good as Sergei's 'off nights' that you refer to.

In the past three seasons Datsyuk has scored 97 points and 87 points twice. You do realize Fedorov surpassed those totals only twice in his entire career? I think you just severely sold Datsyuk short to make your point there.

[eva unit zero 271]

Eva,

I wasn't criticizing his skill level, I was criticizing his work ethic, I though that was pretty obvious!

And I was criticizing the fact that people criticize Fedorov's work ethic because he wasn't always as playing as well as they had seen him play before. Just because a guy can be the best goal scorer, playmaker, and defensive player in the world on his best nights, and has many nights where he does it, does NOT mean that it is a lack of effort if he doesn't do it every night.

This is what people seem to miss. Fedorov was so unbelievably good that when he was just 'very good' or 'one of the best players on the ice' people felt he was being lazy because it wasn't the incredibly dominant performances they had seen many times. Fedorov might be the only player in history who was criticized as 'not scoring enough because he's lazy and unmotivated' in seasons when he was actually scoring more than his typical output. The problem is everyone was expecting him to have a 120 point, Selke-winning season. He did that playing over 28 minutes per game and often double-shifting because of Yzerman's injury. The Wings were a much deeper, more balanced team later on and Feds was seeing less than 20 minutes of ice time. He's still expected to put up the same kind of numbers playing a third less time? He actually scored at about the same rate per minute in 2002-03 as he did in his Hart season. Most other years, which saw similar PT to 02-03, he wasn't too far behind that year's numbers offensively. Yet people felt because he wasn't scoring 120 points he wasn't trying. It's like if a guy hits 60 HR in 600 AB in his fourth season in the majors, then sees around 400 AB most of the rest of his career and is still expected to hit 60 HR, but instead usually hits around 35-40. Still the same kind of numbers as far as HR per AB...but not the same glory and public perception. So he just 'isn't trying anymore' or something like that.

[Guest EZBAKETHAGANGSTA]

Z has more raw talent than Datsyuk? No.

Norris Nick let me just say it's a pleausre to have you on these boards. we basically have the same views on a lot of things but because of your rep, you get taken seriously and It just makes me happy that basically my ideas withb a diffirent voice get praise.

[eva unit zero 271]

In the past three seasons Datsyuk has scored 97 points and 87 points twice. You do realize Fedorov surpassed those totals only twice in his entire career? I think you just severely sold Datsyuk short to make your point there.

Name me a linemate Fedorov ever had whose ability was greater than his own at the time they were linemates?

Because Datsyuk has had Zetterberg. Without Z, Dats doesn't score as much. Datsyuk also did it on the first line; Fedorov hit the mid-80s in points on the second line and was top-four in Selke voting two consecutive years before winning it in 1994. It's not that I sold Datsyuk short; it's that people just don't remember HOW good Fedorov really was.

[egroen 384]

Name me a linemate Fedorov ever had whose ability was greater than his own at the time they were linemates?

Because Datsyuk has had Zetterberg. Without Z, Dats doesn't score as much. Datsyuk also did it on the first line; Fedorov hit the mid-80s in points on the second line and was top-four in Selke voting two consecutive years before winning it in 1994. It's not that I sold Datsyuk short; it's that people just don't remember HOW good Fedorov really was.

Now you are short-selling Larionov and Koslov, as well as Konstantinov and Fetisov! The Russian 5 was arguably better than Datsyuk's lines of the past 3 years. And I do not think Zetterberg is necessary for Datsyuk to produce, as whenever Zetterberg has been out Datsyuk's production has increased.

I have no problem with you praising Fedorov's talents; I fully agree. I just strongly disagree that Fedorov was "so good" that his off nights, or even off seasons were better than Datsyuk's best... they clearly are not.

Edited July 17, 2008 by egroen

[high_stick69 7]

I'd love some of the crack that's going around that's got people putting Fedorov ahead of Yzerman on a list like this. That's just garbage IMO, I put Shanahan on the list ahead of Fedorov, we didn't win a cup until Shanahan joined the Wings. With an organization like this comes class, which Fedorov lacked too. That knocks back a few points. If this were looking a few years into the future, Fedorov would be #7 as both Dats and Hank are gonna be better players than he ever was. I remember a Fedorov that held out for more money, got his contract, and magically turned from great to above average. At least Lidstrom and Yzerman kept playing at the best of their ability once they got their contracts.

1) Yzerman

2) Lidstrom

3) Shanahan

4) Osgood

5) Fedorov

6) Datsyuk

7) Zetterberg

8) Larionov

9) Draper

10) Hasek

Do you remember when the Wings acquired Shanny? He scored like crazy and make the PP something to behold. His goal scoring ability is what helped put the Wings over the top!!!

[eva unit zero 271]

Now you are short-selling Larionov and Koslov, as well as Konstantinov and Fetisov! The Russian 5 was arguably better than Datsyuk's lines of the past 3 years. And I do not think Zetterberg is necessary for Datsyuk to produce, as whenever Zetterberg has been out Datsyuk's production has increased.

I have no problem with you praising Fedorov's talents; I fully agree. I just strongly disagree that Fedorov was "so good" that his off nights, or even off seasons were better than Datsyuk's best... they clearly are not.

I didn't say best. I said average.

The Russian 5 was arguably better than Datsyuk's typical 5-man unit because of?

SERGEI FEDOROV.

Both units have the best defenseman in the game at the time. We'll call that even, even though most in this thread have been dissing Vladdy hardcore. Now let's compare the rest, minus Feds v Dats.

Russian 5 has Kozlov/Larionov/Fetisov. The current unit has Zetterberg, Rafalski, and Holmstrom. There is not even a contest there regarding who has had better units to play with.

When Fedorov didn't have a "big night", he was still just as good or better as Datsyuk is on most nights.

BTW...Datsyuk has just established himself as a top two-way forward in the NHL at 30. He entered the league at 23. Fedorov at 23 was an 86-point Selke finalist. Fedorov from 25-27 was the best forward in the world at both ends of the ice. Just because you don't realize or remember how good Fedorov was doesn't mean he wasn't that good.

[skippy_kenn 0]

Top 10 of the past 15 years

1a. Yzerman (No explanation needed)

1b. Lidstrom (No explanation needed)

3. Bowman (does not say anothing about just players)

4. Fedorov (He may have left unceremoniously but he was a hell of a player here)

5. Konstinov (I think Lidstrom would not have 6 Norris's had he never got hurt) yes seriously

6. Zetterburg (No explanation needed the next Captain after Nick)

7. Holmstrom (whatever watch slogan it was takes a licking and keeps on ticking) (I fear that his body is starting to brake down from the punishment from over the years, God I hope I am wrong)

8. Datsyuk (Gotta love those hands and moves)

9. Osgood (There's no place like home, There's no place like home, There's no place like home)

10. Vernon ( '95, '96, '97)

(I may push Vernon here over Hasek as he won with a all star team in front of him.)

I know Shanny deserves to be in here as well but I never did like the jig.

Edited July 17, 2008 by skippy_kenn

[Doggy 130]

Lidstrom never got 6 straight Norrises anyway.