72 replies to this topic

[haroldsnepsts]

So you'd propose we only have 4 numbers up there? #9, #1, #19 and #5? I know Ilitch has a history of unretiring numbers but I doubt he pulls that trick with Ted, Sid, and Fats.

where exactly did I say he should unretire those jerseys?

Not including Fedorov isn't equivalent with taking down the ones that are up there.

[norrisnick]

where exactly did I say he should unretire those jerseys?

Not including Fedorov isn't equivalent with taking down the ones that are up there.

I didn't say you did, hence the question.

If he isn't deemed worthy, the other three aren't either. So I was wondering whether you'd want them ripped down. Mr. I has a history of doing so.

[haroldsnepsts]

I didn't say you did, hence the question.

If he isn't deemed worthy, the other three aren't either. So I was wondering whether you'd want them ripped down. Mr. I has a history of doing so.

I don't think that's necessarily true. We're talking about different players from very different eras, playing in essentially different leagues. By the standard that seems to be used these days for players of the modern era, I don't think Fedorov makes the cut.

And even if they weren't worthy, as they say, two wrongs don't make a right.

It's not totally out of the question his number would get retired. Fedorov was a great player and a valuable part of the Wings for many years, but I just don't see it happening.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 23 July 2008 - 06:51 PM.

[norrisnick]

I don't think that's necessarily true. We're talking about different players from very different eras, playing in essentially different leagues. By the standard that seems to be used these days, I don't think Fedorov makes the cut.

And even if they weren't worthy, as they say, two wrongs don't make a right.

It's not totally out of the question his number would get retired. Fedorov was a great player and a valuable part of the Wings for many years, but I just don't see it happening.

Standards? So being a cornerstone of 3 Cup wins and an elite player, winning multiple trophies, elite playoff performer, etc... doesn't cut it these days? And when I say cornerstone, I mean just that. Without him we don't win in '97, '98, or '02. He, Lidstrom, and Stevie were the three pillars of those teams. We don't win if any of them were gone.

I'd love to hear how that doesn't compare to the other guys up there. So since you don't think he makes the cut, I'd like to know your reasoning on what puts him on the negative side of the line.

[haroldsnepsts]

Standards? So being a cornerstone of 3 Cup wins and an elite player, winning multiple trophies, elite playoff performer, etc... doesn't cut it these days? And when I say cornerstone, I mean just that. Without him we don't win in '97, '98, or '02. He, Lidstrom, and Stevie were the three pillars of those teams. We don't win if any of them were gone.

I'd love to hear how that doesn't compare to the other guys up there. So since you don't think he makes the cut, I'd like to know your reasoning on what puts him on the negative side of the line.

Honestly on paper he's got it, but I think it's some of the character things he did as a Wing (off the ice) that may keep his jersey from hanging from the rafters.

With the exception of Sawchuk, all the other players were Wings captains. Same goes for when Lids' number is up there. I just think the criteria includes an element of being a Red Wing through and through, and like it or not some of the things Sergei did during his career tarnish that.

Missing most of the '98 season due to his contract holdout is probably the biggest one. The offer sheet with Carolina. The difficult contract negotiations in 03 and his going to Anaheim of all places after losing to them in the first round. It all points to a generally acrimonious relationship he often had with management.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 23 July 2008 - 07:21 PM.

[norrisnick]

Honestly on paper he's got it, but I think it's some of the character things he did as a Wing (off the ice) that may keep his jersey from hanging from the rafters.

With the exception of Sawchuk, all the other players were Wings captains. Same goes for when Lids' number is up there. I just think the criteria includes an element of being a Red Wing through and through, and like it or not some of the things Sergei did during his career tarnish that.

Missing most of the '98 season due to his contract holdout is probably the biggest one. The offer sheet with Carolina. The difficult contract negotiations in 03 and his going to Anaheim of all places after losing to them in the first round. It all points to a generally acrimonious relationship he often had with management.

Character things? Like wanting to be paid on par with his contribution? Even after the offersheet he was underpaid. He was being lowballed hardcore. The '03 negotiations are the only contract talks I've ever heard of where the offers from management kept shrinking every time they came together. Kenny insulted Fedorov and then pushed him out the door.

You want an acrimonious relationship with management? Ted Lindsay?

[haroldsnepsts]

Character things? Like wanting to be paid on par with his contribution? Even after the offersheet he was underpaid. He was being lowballed hardcore. The '03 negotiations are the only contract talks I've ever heard of where the offers from management kept shrinking every time they came together. Kenny insulted Fedorov and then pushed him out the door.

You want an acrimonious relationship with management? Ted Lindsay?

You keep acting as if there should be equity and fairness over the decades as to who gets their numbers retired or not. I'm merely stating I don't think it will happen and why.

I'm not arguing whether his holding out was justified or not, just that it's an issue. It's the opinion of Ilitch and co. that matters relative to his jersey being retired and I bet they have a different view of the situation than you do.

Lindsay didn't have his number retired by the same owner and management that he had trouble with. For Fedorov, that would have to be the case, at least in the foreseeable future.

Edited by haroldsnepsts, 23 July 2008 - 08:58 PM.

[Opie]

Who Fedorov?!?

He's a stone cold lock for a first ballot entry. No ifs, ands, or buts. It's beyond ridiculous to say he won't get in at all.

I wasn't going to derail, but seeing as the train is already off of the track.

WARNING: The following rant is laced with my opinion, if my opinion bothers anyone I apologize in advance, but this is my take on the subject at hand!

I stand by these numbers:

Feds:
1196gp 472 674 1146 (Not a ppg player)

Jagr:
1273gp 646 953 1599 (well over a ppg player)

Jagr is a stone cold first ballot HOF lock, Feds if he is able to return to form could hit 500 goals this year and maybe 1200 points, those are not HOF numbers let alone first ballot numbers. (BTW I choose to compare him to Jagr due to the fact they started in the NHL the same year, and he is a first ballot HOFer.)

There are players with 500-600 goals who are not in the HOF. And yeah sure Cam Neely is in the HOF, IMO doesn't belong and I am a huge Cam fan, the HOF should be for those who were far an away one of the best players (not talent) in the league for a long consistent period of time. He may have been top 10 in the league for a couple of seasons, but he has had more meh seasons than great seasons.

Look at Yzerman's stats, again stone cold lock first ballot HOF:
1514 692 1063 1755

Shanny:
1490 650 690 1340 (Not a ppg player but 650 goals will get him in)

Shanny is another stone cold lock for the hall.

TO ME, Feds numbers just don't add up to HOF, and that has nothing to do with liking or disliking the man, the myth, the player. I don't blame him for wanting to go after the year Holland took off of the table, but his less than stellar work ethic is the only thing I have against him.

While Feds had some great years with Detroit, phenomenal years (2 to be exact) he didn't continue it outside of Detroit, which at the time was being accused of paying for all star teams (not his fault, but a factor in voting) then he leaves Detroit and never really has another season like the ones he had in Detroit.
He had 2 years over 100 points, 3 years with 80-87 points, 7 years between 60-79, 4 years under 60 points.
Lets not all act like he had a bunch of 100 point years and another 6-8 years of 90 points, like say Jagr.

Think about the lines he played on, the Russian 5, Shanny - Yzerman - Feds, on that last line he is the 3rd best player.

IMO he is not a stone cold lock for the Hall, let alone first ballot lock. However I will contend that if Neely can make the Hall a lot more players should be in the Hall.

[norrisnick]

I wasn't going to derail, but seeing as the train is already off of the track.

WARNING: The following rant is laced with my opinion, if my opinion bothers anyone I apologize in advance, but this is my take on the subject at hand!

I stand by these numbers:

Feds:
1196gp 472 674 1146 (Not a ppg player)

Jagr:
1273gp 646 953 1599 (well over a ppg player)

Jagr is a stone cold first ballot HOF lock, Feds if he is able to return to form could hit 500 goals this year and maybe 1200 points, those are not HOF numbers let alone first ballot numbers. (BTW I choose to compare him to Jagr due to the fact they started in the NHL the same year, and he is a first ballot HOFer.)

There are players with 500-600 goals who are not in the HOF. And yeah sure Cam Neely is in the HOF, IMO doesn't belong and I am a huge Cam fan, the HOF should be for those who were far an away one of the best players (not talent) in the league for a long consistent period of time. He may have been top 10 in the league for a couple of seasons, but he has had more meh seasons than great seasons.

Look at Yzerman's stats, again stone cold lock first ballot HOF:
1514 692 1063 1755

Shanny:
1490 650 690 1340 (Not a ppg player but 650 goals will get him in)

Shanny is another stone cold lock for the hall.

TO ME, Feds numbers just don't add up to HOF, and that has nothing to do with liking or disliking the man, the myth, the player. I don't blame him for wanting to go after the year Holland took off of the table, but his less than stellar work ethic is the only thing I have against him.

While Feds had some great years with Detroit, phenomenal years (2 to be exact) he didn't continue it outside of Detroit, which at the time was being accused of paying for all star teams (not his fault, but a factor in voting) then he leaves Detroit and never really has another season like the ones he had in Detroit.
He had 2 years over 100 points, 3 years with 80-87 points, 7 years between 60-79, 4 years under 60 points.
Lets not all act like he had a bunch of 100 point years and another 6-8 years of 90 points, like say Jagr.

Think about the lines he played on, the Russian 5, Shanny - Yzerman - Feds, on that last line he is the 3rd best player.

IMO he is not a stone cold lock for the Hall, let alone first ballot lock. However I will contend that if Neely can make the Hall a lot more players should be in the Hall.

Stone. Cold. Lock.

Hart. Pearson. 2 Selkes. 3 Cups. Should have won the '97 Conn Smythe. 4 consecutive 20pt playoffs (NHL record). You talk about numbers, but Fedorov was as good defensively as he was offensively. For my money he's in the running for the best two-way forward ever. Were he so inclined he could have won himself a Norris trophy or two.

There is no possible argument to be made that keeps Fedorov out of the HOF.

And for your second to last comment there about lines. As a Red Wing he was never not the best player on his line. Ever.

[haroldsnepsts]

Stone. Cold. Lock.

Hart. Pearson. 2 Selkes. 3 Cups. Should have won the '97 Conn Smythe. 4 consecutive 20pt playoffs (NHL record). You talk about numbers, but Fedorov was as good defensively as he was offensively. For my money he's in the running for the best two-way forward ever. Were he so inclined he could have won himself a Norris trophy or two.

There is no possible argument to be made that keeps Fedorov out of the HOF.

And for your second to last comment there about lines. As a Red Wing he was never not the best player on his line. Ever.

This we can agree on. Feds is in the HOF for sure. I'd be amazed if it wasn't on the first ballot.

[Opie]

Stone. Cold. Lock.

Hart. Pearson. 2 Selkes. 3 Cups. Should have won the '97 Conn Smythe. 4 consecutive 20pt playoffs (NHL record). You talk about numbers, but Fedorov was as good defensively as he was offensively. For my money he's in the running for the best two-way forward ever. Were he so inclined he could have won himself a Norris trophy or two.

There is no possible argument to be made that keeps Fedorov out of the HOF.

And for your second to last comment there about lines. As a Red Wing he was never not the best player on his line. Ever.

What HOFer forward has got in there because they won a Hart, Pearson, 2 Selke, 3 cups and had less than 500 goals? Got in based on Defensive ability as a forward?

I am not saying he will never make the Hall, I don't have that kind of power, what I am saying is that his numbers do not scream HOF to me, he has less than 500 goals and will in all likelihood end his career with under 550, what HOFer besides Neely and Anderson made the HOF with those numbers. Again there are two examples, two examples I don't believe are HOF worthy, just proves I can be wrong, big surprise huh?

I just don't see a guy in the HOF because he had a bunch of 70-80 point seasons with one 107 and one 120 thrown in there.

Look at his numbers compared to the ones I threw up, those are stone cold locks. Jagr's numbers destroy Feds, that is a stone cold lock first ballot HOFer.

<500 goals < 1200 assists do not scream HOF, but I will give you Cam Neely's numbers (again I am a fan of Cam) don't even remotely smell like HOF and he is in there, difference being the voters gave Neely some consideration because he was injured so severely for so much of what appeared to be an HOF career, Feds was never injured like that, he left Detroit and after one decent season became a 50 pt scorer. That will hurt him more than being the best (Raw talent wise) player on his team.

HOF is more about career numbers than it is about individual awards, those things are secondary factors, and if the voters are on the fence that may swing them, probably will swing them.

I think you guys are looking at it with a little bit of red wing glasses if you think <500 goals and < 1200 assists is stone cold lock HOF, when (again) Jagr who entered the league at the same time he did absolutely smokes his numbers. If Feds is in a class with a bunch of 400-500 goals scorers on his first ballot, he would win votes over them because of his individual awards, however if his class is Jagr, Shanny, Sakic and Recchi which is completely possible, Feds loses out just purely based on numbers.

Edited by Opie, 25 July 2008 - 12:02 PM.

[Konnan511]

Not going to lie Opie, you make some awesome points! The only thing I don't completely agree with, is the comparing of Jagr and Fedorov's offensive numbers, because Feds prided himself (I think) on his defensive abilities as well. Times when Jagr could "cheat" and try to get a goal, same holds for Shanny, Fedorov had to make sure he was in a good scoring position along with a sound defensive position as well.

Other wise I agree with just about everything else you said, because of your use of sound logic and reasoning and non-bias objection. Like I said, the only "disagreement" was the comparisons to Shanny and mainly Jagr because of the different types of players they were. That is all. End. Period. Done.

PS I love Neely too!!!! NHL 94 all the way!!

Edited by Konnan511, 25 July 2008 - 02:02 PM.

[norrisnick]

What HOFer forward has got in there because they won a Hart, Pearson, 2 Selke, 3 cups and had less than 500 goals? Got in based on Defensive ability as a forward?

I am not saying he will never make the Hall, I don't have that kind of power, what I am saying is that his numbers do not scream HOF to me, he has less than 500 goals and will in all likelihood end his career with under 550, what HOFer besides Neely and Anderson made the HOF with those numbers. Again there are two examples, two examples I don't believe are HOF worthy, just proves I can be wrong, big surprise huh?

I just don't see a guy in the HOF because he had a bunch of 70-80 point seasons with one 107 and one 120 thrown in there.

Look at his numbers compared to the ones I threw up, those are stone cold locks. Jagr's numbers destroy Feds, that is a stone cold lock first ballot HOFer.

<500 goals < 1200 assists do not scream HOF, but I will give you Cam Neely's numbers (again I am a fan of Cam) don't even remotely smell like HOF and he is in there, difference being the voters gave Neely some consideration because he was injured so severely for so much of what appeared to be an HOF career, Feds was never injured like that, he left Detroit and after one decent season became a 50 pt scorer. That will hurt him more than being the best (Raw talent wise) player on his team.

HOF is more about career numbers than it is about individual awards, those things are secondary factors, and if the voters are on the fence that may swing them, probably will swing them.

I think you guys are looking at it with a little bit of red wing glasses if you think <500 goals and < 1200 assists is stone cold lock HOF, when (again) Jagr who entered the league at the same time he did absolutely smokes his numbers. If Feds is in a class with a bunch of 400-500 goals scorers on his first ballot, he would win votes over them because of his individual awards, however if his class is Jagr, Shanny, Sakic and Recchi which is completely possible, Feds loses out just purely based on numbers.

Ever hear of Bob Gainey? First ballot HOF forward. His career spanned the highest scoring era ever (mid 70s through the 80s). He never once hit 50 points. 1160GP - 239G - 262A - 501P He was routinely doubled up in points by defensemen of his era.

Go to any hockey board you like and ask if Sergei Fedorov is a HOFer. Apart from maybe an Avs board or hockeyfights, I'm guessing the answer will be overwhelmingly, yes.

If Fedorov is not a HOFer than they really need to reconsider what the HOF is supposed to be.

[Opie]

Ever hear of Bob Gainey? First ballot HOF forward. His career spanned the highest scoring era ever (mid 70s through the 80s). He never once hit 50 points. 1160GP - 239G - 262A - 501P He was routinely doubled up in points by defensemen of his era.

Go to any hockey board you like and ask if Sergei Fedorov is a HOFer. Apart from maybe an Avs board or hockeyfights, I'm guessing the answer will be overwhelmingly, yes.

If Fedorov is not a HOFer than they really need to reconsider what the HOF is supposed to be.

5 stanley cups including 4 in a row, 4 Selke trophies, 1 conn smythe, 'C' of the Habs for 7 years. a Member of Arguably one of Hockey's greatest dynasties

3 stanley cups including 2 in a row, 2 selke trophies, 0 conn smythes, never a C.

I am not saying it won't happen, I am saying in my book he is not a stone cold lock.

To say he is a stone cold lock to me is a stretch. The Hall has become a numbers based induction, and if he goes in compared to the list of players I put in an early post he is not making it.

If Shanny, Jagr, Roenick, Recchi, and Sakic are on the ballot with Feds (Not a stretch at all, that easily could be a Ballot he faces) he will not make it into the Hall on that Ballot, I will guarantee that. Then once he misses the first Ballot he has to keep hoping that he doesn't face guys like Forsberg* (another Cam Neely induction), Selanne(552G), Neidermayer, Modano,etc.

AGAIN, let me say this, I am not acting or pretending my word is what will get him in, but my opinion is he has a tough bit of competition coming up and the separating factor would be numbers.

* I honestly don't think Floppa is HOF worthy by numbers either but I see the HOF putting him in, because of the ancient Tales of one Floppa the Great!

[toby91_ca]

What HOFer forward has got in there because they won a Hart, Pearson, 2 Selke, 3 cups and had less than 500 goals? Got in based on Defensive ability as a forward?

What player with those accolades is not in the hall? I haven't bothered to try and dig up such a player, so maybe they do exist, but I highly doubt it.

I know it is only your opinion, but I think your opinion in extremely flawed. How on earth can you simply look at offensive numbers to assess whether someone is worthy of the HOF? It makes absolutely no sense.

Someone already mentioned Gainey, I think he's a good example. This is a guy who maxed out at 47 points, his second best total of 45 came in the year Gretzky had 215. Even though his offensive stats were not impressive, check out this quote:

For the majority of his career he was regarded by many in the Soviet Union hockey system as the greatest hockey player ever. Bob Gainey was described as the world's best all-around player by legendary Soviet national team coach Anatoli Tarasov.

I can understand the argument for Fedorov not having his number retired in Detroit, but I cannot agree at all with any argument that questions whether he is worthy for the HOF or not.

Also, in terms of scoring stats, I'm pretty sure when he retires, he'll have the most goals and points by a Russian born player, which will, in fact, mean something. It is likley that he would only hold that distinguishment for a short period of time as Ovechkin will likely overtake both.

[alpo]

Thanks for the Metallica Mack_Attack.....for sure Wendel gave the leafs something to cheer about & had he been just a tad smarter & picked his spots instead of trying to be a a whole teams worth of toughness....he would have had much longer career.....c/w HOF numbers.

as for the subthread topic....Feds is for sure going to the hall of fame, maybe not 1st ballad, as the ffeild could be tight....but i see no reason why he would be excluded.

[norrisnick]

5 stanley cups including 4 in a row, 4 Selke trophies, 1 conn smythe, 'C' of the Habs for 7 years. a Member of Arguably one of Hockey's greatest dynasties

3 stanley cups including 2 in a row, 2 selke trophies, 0 conn smythes, never a C.

I am not saying it won't happen, I am saying in my book he is not a stone cold lock.

To say he is a stone cold lock to me is a stretch. The Hall has become a numbers based induction, and if he goes in compared to the list of players I put in an early post he is not making it.

If Shanny, Jagr, Roenick, Recchi, and Sakic are on the ballot with Feds (Not a stretch at all, that easily could be a Ballot he faces) he will not make it into the Hall on that Ballot, I will guarantee that. Then once he misses the first Ballot he has to keep hoping that he doesn't face guys like Forsberg* (another Cam Neely induction), Selanne(552G), Neidermayer, Modano,etc.

AGAIN, let me say this, I am not acting or pretending my word is what will get him in, but my opinion is he has a tough bit of competition coming up and the separating factor would be numbers.

* I honestly don't think Floppa is HOF worthy by numbers either but I see the HOF putting him in, because of the ancient Tales of one Floppa the Great!

Shanahan, Roenick, and Recchi have no bearing on Fedorov as they're behind him in HOF worthiness. Same with Forsberg, Selanne, Niedermayer, and Modano.

I guess it's odd to see a Wings' fan not realize how great Fedorov is and was. To me there isn't a shadow of doubt that he'll get inducted 3 years after hanging them up.

[Opie]

Shanahan, Roenick, and Recchi have no bearing on Fedorov as they're behind him in HOF worthiness. Same with Forsberg, Selanne, Niedermayer, and Modano.

I guess it's odd to see a Wings' fan not realize how great Fedorov is and was. To me there isn't a shadow of doubt that he'll get inducted 3 years after hanging them up.

Those players COULD very well have a lot to do with when or if Feds gets into the Hall, they don't just look at individuals and say yes or no, they have to vote for the people in the class, and his numbers are dwarfed by the numbers of the players I put up there except for the great Floppa.

I never said Feds wasn't one of the most talented players to ever lace them up, however the Hall is not based on Talent alone, and a bunch of 70 point seasons isn't screaming for induction, to me.

[Anomalously]

Opie's right -- and the best way to argue if Sergei is a first-ballot "stone cold lock" is looking at the players around him -- at his potential draft class.

The players in the league older than Fedorov that have a shot of getting in before Fedorov:

Chelios (second-oldest player in NHL history, 3 Norris trophies, 948 points in 1616 games, 3 Cups, 2873 PIM)
Roberts (1 Cup, 2533 PIM, 903 points in 1194 games, might have the respect of voters)
Shanahan (650 goals, the 19 consecutive 20-goal seasons, 1340 in 1490, Gordie Howe Tricks, Competition Committee, Olympic Gold)
Sakic (100 points in 6 seasons, 188 playoff points, 1629 in 1363, 623 goals, this is too obvious)
Blake (Norris, Cup, 1509 points in 1127, Olympic Gold)

Guys younger:

Brodeur (538 wins, 3 Cups, several records, 4 Vezinas)
Lidstrom (938 in 1252, 6 Norris Trophies, Olympic Gold)
Modano (all-time scoring, points leader for USA; more than 500 goals; 1283 in 1320)
Selanne (Calder; 1158 points in 1067; 552 goals)
Sundin (consistency, longest European captaincy, Leaf franchise records for goals, points; 1321 in 1305, 555 goals)
Jagr (this is another no-brainer, several more Harts, active leader in offensive categories)
Niedermayer (Gold, 663 in 1101, Norris, Cup)
Roenick (500 goal club, 1203 points)

Keep in mind that I'm not on the committee. It depends who is on the committee and who Fedorov retires with. Fedorov is older than a lot of guys on this list and yet some of the younger guys have accomplished more. Shanahan, Sakic, Blake, Modano, Selanne, Sundin, Jagr, and Roenick all have more points. All of those guys with more points except for Blake, a defenseman, have more goals. And Lidstrom is obviously a lock above Fedorov. If Fedorov retires with Lidstrom, Sakic, and Sundin, he's not a first-ballot HOFer.

Edited by Anomalously, 28 July 2008 - 12:27 PM.

[wingedwheeler12]

Fedorov will make it into the hall, that is something I can say with confidence, but we wont see #91 in the rafters, because ill tell you why, to get that honor, first, youd have to be almost a lifer, like Yzerman or Lidstrom, because heck we know hes going up in the rafters. A lifer that has done great things and has followed great lengths to Make the Red Wings Successful.

Fedorov did great things in Detroit, but I cannot see Mike Illitch Honoring him like that. because of the way he left, and his past history with his money disputes repeated themselves in detroit, and well, I really dont think that he needs to be up there, because really, to be up in those rafters , in oppinion only and as a wings fan, I feel you have to be a lifer, shanahan , sadly will never make it up there, he will be remembered like fedorov, but he wont be there either, then you have ozzie? its a good toss up, because im not sure if he will make it, but you know, im not an osgood geek, but the guy has done some good stuff in Detroit. and i wouldnt be surprised, because that stanley cup added another feather to the cap and hes proved his worthiness or so i feel.

but I think Sergei is one of those ones we wont forget, I liked him but i dont think thats enough.

anyways, i gotta scat for now, excuse the long drawn out words, take care all!

Edited by wingedwheeler12, 28 July 2008 - 12:10 PM.