Your Thoughts on Best......

[norrisnick 1]

Fil will never be half the playmaker Hudler is. He doesn't have the head or the hands for it.

[FinRedWing 172]

Fil will never be half the playmaker Hudler is. He doesn't have the head or the hands for it.

5 year extension must have been tough.

Edited August 10, 2008 by FinRedWing

[norrisnick 1]

Tough?

[FinRedWing 172]

Tough?

For you personally.

[norrisnick 1]

How so?

[FinRedWing 172]

It's obvious you don't like the guy,that's all.

[norrisnick 1]

I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension.

[Dabura 12,207]

5 year extension must have been tough.

Well, that's the other side of the issue: his contract makes merit practically irrelevant. Hudler's making peanuts by comparison; thus, it's easier to put him on a lesser line.

[Heaton 1]

Well, that's the other side of the issue: his contract makes merit practically irrelevant. Hudler's making peanuts by comparison; thus, it's easier to put him on a lesser line.

Eh? Filppula's contract extension wasn't a direct correlation to his point totals or potential point totals. It's easier to put Hudler on a "lesser" line because of the way Babcock likes to match up against the other team. This Red Wings team isn't like any other team in the league. Our "4th" line last playoffs wasn't a prototypical 4th line and it won't be this year. Let go of the stigma!

[eva unit zero 271]

It's obvious you don't like the guy,that's all.

Saying Filppula won't ever be nearly as good a playmaker as Hudler has nothing to do with which players he likes or not.

It's like saying that Jari Kurri wouldn't ever be the playmaker that Pierre Turgeon was. Turgeon was a much better passer and setup guy. Always. Kurri was better at a lot of other things....just not playmaking.

[Guest Four]

I suggest you brush up on your reading comprehension.

Why so serious?

[ArcticWing 0]

Compering Flip and Huds is like compering peanuts and donuts, POINTLESS! Should Hudler play tops six minutes? Hell yes, but with signing of Hossa thats highly unlikely. After Hossa is gone, (and yes he will be gone after this season, don't kid yourself.) Hudler is going to take he's place as a scoring winger. On many other teams Hudler could be top six center, but not on Wings. Take a look at the past and the present top six centers of Red Wings, what are they? Solid two-way perhaps. Like I already mentioned Hudler could be top six center on some other team. On a team that relies purely on offense through to middle like for an example Penguins do. Here his role is top six winger, but if no injuries occur probably only after next season because we are so stacked at the moment. We are lucky to have tons of talent, but it's sometimes even a problem, since not all can get top six minutes. And there is still Kopecky and Leino, whom also could turn out to be great.

[eva unit zero 271]

Compering Flip and Huds is like compering peanuts and donuts, POINTLESS! Should Hudler play tops six minutes? Hell yes, but with signing of Hossa thats highly unlikely. After Hossa is gone, (and yes he will be gone after this season, don't kid yourself.) Hudler is going to take he's place as a scoring winger. On many other teams Hudler could be top six center, but not on Wings. Take a look at the past and the present top six centers of Red Wings, what are they? Solid two-way perhaps. Like I already mentioned Hudler could be top six center on some other team. On a team that relies purely on offense through to middle like for an example Penguins do. Here his role is top six winger, but if no injuries occur probably only after next season because we are so stacked at the moment. We are lucky to have tons of talent, but it's sometimes even a problem, since not all can get top six minutes. And there is still Kopecky and Leino, whom also could turn out to be great.

Hudler is solid two-way. He's not GREAT defensively, but he's above average defensively. For a center with his kind of offensive talents, he is very good defensively. There are not many players in the world who are like Z and Dats where they are top notch at both ends of the ice. Being a Wings fan sometimes spoils people where they think "oh, he's the first line center. Well that means he's very good at both ends of the ice." The though process for most teams' fans is "He's the first line center? That means he's the most offensively talented center." Hudler is a good defensive player on a team full of very good defensive forwards. On most teams in the league, Hudler would be one of the better DEFENSIVE forwards. Hell even Robert Lang could play decent defense. If you are a guy like Craig Janney where you simply don't play defense? The Red Wings just don't acquire you. It's that simple.

[FinRedWing 172]

Saying Filppula won't ever be nearly as good a playmaker as Hudler has nothing to do with which players he likes or not.

It's like saying that Jari Kurri wouldn't ever be the playmaker that Pierre Turgeon was. Turgeon was a much better passer and setup guy. Always. Kurri was better at a lot of other things....just not playmaking.

I know,but I've seen enough evidence over the past year or so to have my opinion about NN & Filppula.

[Dabura 12,207]

Eh? Filppula's contract extension wasn't a direct correlation to his point totals or potential point totals.

I didn't say it was. My point was that he's getting paid more than Hudler, so it'll be easier on management's/Babs' "conscience" to have him playing the big minutes.

[norrisnick 1]

I know,but I've seen enough evidence over the past year or so to have my opinion about NN & Filppula.

Really? Me too!

[Doggy 130]

Why so serious?

Good ole NN. He's a bit of a grump sometimes true?

[eva unit zero 271]

Just thought I'd bump this thread since we're starting to get new posts about the same topic.

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Hudler is solid two-way. He's not GREAT defensively, but he's above average defensively. For a center with his kind of offensive talents, he is very good defensively. There are not many players in the world who are like Z and Dats where they are top notch at both ends of the ice. Being a Wings fan sometimes spoils people where they think "oh, he's the first line center. Well that means he's very good at both ends of the ice." The though process for most teams' fans is "He's the first line center? That means he's the most offensively talented center." Hudler is a good defensive player on a team full of very good defensive forwards. On most teams in the league, Hudler would be one of the better DEFENSIVE forwards. Hell even Robert Lang could play decent defense. If you are a guy like Craig Janney where you simply don't play defense? The Red Wings just don't acquire you. It's that simple.

Todd Bertuzzi?

[eva unit zero 271]

Todd Bertuzzi?

Isn't a center. Hudler was acquired as a center, played most of his minor league time as a center, and only was converted to play wing because he was too good to keep in the minors.

[eva unit zero 271]

Just because the forum is dead, and nobody has discussed this topic in a while, I thought I would give it a bump.

The Wings' current list of signed players and RFAs who must clear waivers and/or have one-way contracts are:

Forwards (13)

Marian Hossa, $7,450,000

Pavel Datsyuk, $6,700,000

Valtteri Filppula, $3,000,000

Daniel Cleary, $2,800,000

Henrik Zetterberg, $2,650,000

Tomas Holmstrom, $2,250,000

Kris Draper, $1,583,333

Mikael Samuelsson, $1,200,000

Jiri Hudler, $1,015,000

Johan Franzen, $941,667

Kirk Maltby, $883,333

Aaron Downey, $575,000

Tomas Kopecky, $500,000

Defensemen (8)

Nicklas Lidstrom, $7,450,000

Brian Rafalski, $6,000,000

Brad Stuart, $3,750,000

Niklas Kronwall, $3,000,000

Andreas Lilja, $1,250,000

Brett Lebda, $650,000

Derek Meech, $483,333

Kyle Quincey, RFA

Goaltenders (2)

Chris Osgood, $1,416,667

Ty Conklin, $750,000

Total cap hit: $56,298,333

Remaining cap space: $401,667

The Wings are attempting to retain Chelios and possibly McCarty. Quincey still needs a contract also. This means that if everyone gets signed, the Wings will be starting with at least 25 players trying to earn a spot on the NHL roster who do not have waiver options.

Likely cap hits for the remaining players are:

Kyle Quincey 500k

Chris Chelios 600k

Darren McCarty 575k

This pushes the Wings to 25 total players and a total salary cap hit of $57,973,333, which would put them two players over the roster limit and $1,273,333 over the salary cap, with 14 forwards, 9 defensemen, and 2 goaltenders competing for roster spots. So removing two skaters, at least one of which is a defenseman, is the course of action which must be taken. We will assume that the players who will be leaving are those who lose out in the competition for roster position, so it will two of the following players:

Aaron Downey, Darren McCarty, Andreas Lilja, Brett Lebda, Derek Meech, Chris Chelios, Kyle Quincey

When Lilja and Lebda were the only regulars healthy...Meech, Quincey, and Ericsson outperformed Lilja and Lebda. Meech and Quincey are also younger, cheaper and more versatile players with better long-term potential. So the chances that either Meech or Quincey is cut loose in favor of Lilja or Lebda are slim. So we'll remove those two from the list right now.

Downey, McCarty, Lilja, Lebda, Chelios

We'll split these into two groups based on position, and we'll start with the defensemen.

Lilja, Lebda, Chelios

Chelios, assuming he signs for close to the 600k I have listed him at, is the cheapest option. Admittedly, he is not the player he once was, but he also makes the fewest mental errors of the three and is the best positionally. As the Wings will be bringing more young defensemen with good potential onto the team, having Chelios around is a good thing for their development if he is willing to take a lesser role for the good of the team. If not, just don't sign him. Lilja and Lebda are decent third-pair defensemen, but unfortunately that is all they likely ever will be. They have proven to be out of place when used in a top-four role, and were outplayed by rookies during that time. Lebda is younger and cheaper, so he should stay ahead of Lilja.

So we've selected Lilja as the likely 'first to go' which I'm sure was not at all unexpected given his comparatively large salary when put next to the others and the fact that he will be outplayed by most of the defensemen in this group at camp; or at very least most posters at LGW expect him to be. That leaves one final choice; who is the 'other' player to go?

Downey, McCarty, Lebda, Chelios

Of Downey or McCarty, both are defensive liabilities; however, McCarty is slower and does not provide the physical intimidation on the level Downey does. That gives Downey the edge and would make Mac the expendable forward.

Of Chelios or Lebda, I would say Lebda is the expendable defenseman as he would bring more in a trade and provides less to the Wings in the roles they would be used in. The Wings have several young defensemen who can provide what Lebda provides but have only one other multiple Norris-trophy winning defenseman, so having another around to provide some extra leadership for the kids, especially in a depth role to teach kids that it's NOT about being 'the guy' and it IS about 'team' is what is really important. But it doesn't really matter, because McCarty is more expendable than Lebda anyway so he should be the second guy to go. If they need another forward in a pinch, they can call up Helm or play Meech up front.

By trading or waiving Lilja, and sending McCarty down (or not resigning him at all) the Wings actually would have a full 23-man roster with almost 200k more cap space than they have now, based on the hypothetical and actual contract amounts I listed.

Suggested lines for this roster would be:

Datsyuk/Zetterberg/Holmstrom

Cleary/Hudler/Hossa (or Hudler/Filppula/Hossa)

Franzen/Filppula/Samuelsson (or Cleary/Franzen/Samuelsson)

Maltby/Draper/Kopecky

Downey

Lidstrom/Rafalski

Kronwall/Stuart

Lebda-Meech/Chelios-Quincey

Osgood

Howard

[Shaman 713]

My thoughts on the matter

First here are my lines

Zetts, Franzen, Dats

Huds, Flip, Hossa

Cleary, Homer, Kopecky

Maltby, Draper, Downey

Trade Sammy.

Lids-Raffy

Stuart-Kronner

Quinecy-Lebda (Meech and Cheli)

Reasons

First and foremost, Sammy needs to be gone, he brings nothing that other player dont, and as ive pointed out before Hudler had the same number of points last season averaging 1/2 the time as sammy, its time to get rid of the dead weight

Second, this might get me killed, its time to drop Homer out of the top 2 lines, Franzen is starting to prove his worth and I believe given the chance on the top like between Hank and Pasha he will be a 30+ goal scorer year in and out, and with Hossa being here this year and maybe (I hope) years to come should be on the line with our 2 best young offensive forwards, like Hull was with Z&D to help them step up their game.

Third, I think that Homer would be a good fit with Kopecky and Cleary because they all are abit gritty and willing to goto the net, it gives our third line some teeth and people in games that we have in the bag that can kill time without giving fans heart attacks (see sammy and mccarty).

Fourth Defense, Get rid of Lilja, if the SCF didnt prove how slow and out of postion he can be to this board I dont know what will. He is a big cap hit for his ability and we have a log jam kids who need NHL time and WILL (mark my words) bite us in the ass if we let them go.

Finally, it dont break up Zetts and Dats, espeically to put Z on the second line with Sammy, thats like putting Gordie Howe with your neighbors half retarded son, ofcourse Gordie will make the kid look better, but, it would also make Gordie look alittle special...if you catch my drift.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

My thoughts on the matter

First here are my lines

Zetts, Franzen, Dats

Huds, Flip, Hossa

Cleary, Homer, Kopecky

Maltby, Draper, Downey

Trade Sammy.

Lids-Raffy

Stuart-Kronner

Quinecy-Lebda (Meech and Cheli)

Reasons

First and foremost, Sammy needs to be gone, he brings nothing that other player dont, and as ive pointed out before Hudler had the same number of points last season averaging 1/2 the time as sammy, its time to get rid of the dead weight

How is Samuelsson dead weight? He's a consistent 40-point player, and is very respectable defensively. You have Kopecky (who has proven nothing) on the third line, but you want to get rid of a proven point producer? I don't see the logic there, other than Samuelsson being the scapegoat for everything on this board.

Second, this might get me killed, its time to drop Homer out of the top 2 lines, Franzen is starting to prove his worth and I believe given the chance on the top like between Hank and Pasha he will be a 30+ goal scorer year in and out, and with Hossa being here this year and maybe (I hope) years to come should be on the line with our 2 best young offensive forwards, like Hull was with Z&D to help them step up their game.

This is a horrible idea. Homer needs to play with either Z, Pav, or both. Looking at your lines, I'm not sure if you did this intentionally, but you have Homer centering the third line. There is absolutely no way Holmstrom could play center. Moving Holmstrom away from the Euro-Twins basically removes all of Holmstrom's effectiveness.

Third, I think that Homer would be a good fit with Kopecky and Cleary because they all are abit gritty and willing to goto the net, it gives our third line some teeth and people in games that we have in the bag that can kill time without giving fans heart attacks (see sammy and mccarty).

That line is a disaster waiting to happen. I would have a heart attack seeing Kopecky and Homer play together honestly. My sympathies to Dan Cleary if this line ever actually happened.

Fourth Defense, Get rid of Lilja, if the SCF didnt prove how slow and out of postion he can be to this board I dont know what will. He is a big cap hit for his ability and we have a log jam kids who need NHL time and WILL (mark my words) bite us in the ass if we let them go.

I wouldn't mind seeing Lilja go, but he's not a liability like you make him out to be. Lilja blocks shots and kills penalties - what do you expect from a bottom pairing d-man? I have no problem with the kids getting a roster spot, but only if they outplay Lilja in training camp. How do you know for sure Kyle Quincey or Derek Meech will be better than Lilja anyways?

Finally, it dont break up Zetts and Dats, espeically to put Z on the second line with Sammy, thats like putting Gordie Howe with your neighbors half retarded son, ofcourse Gordie will make the kid look better, but, it would also make Gordie look alittle special...if you catch my drift.

I caught your drift ... but it wasn't very intelligent, or even accurate. I'll leave it at that.

[daniel1 32]

I think Meech will be gone. Lilja is too nice of an insurance policy to let go of. Downey and McCarty will be sent down as the chances of anyone picking them up off waivers is pretty slim. I'm really not to sure what they're going to with Quincey; if they can sign him to a two-way deal maybe they do that and risk losing him through waivers if they can't trade him. As much as it pains me to say it maybe it's time for Maltby to be the one sent down/traded. He's given this organization a lot over the years but I think other younger players have more potential and would cost less than him. (He's on the books @ almost a million bucks for this year and next too which would roughly equal the cost of BOTH Helm and Quincey or Meech or Abdelkader or Leino or... you get the point. Is Maltby really worth more than two of the younger guys' in salary and/or roster spot? I don't think so. Especially when we have so many defensively capable forwards who can also PK: Draper/Cleary/Franzen/Filppula/Sammy/Zetts/Dats/Hossa/Helm)

(my "guess" for 08/09)

Homer-Dats-Hossa

Franzen-Zetterberg-Sammy

Cleary-Filpulla-Hudler

Helm-Draper-Kopecky

Lids-Rafi

Stuart-Kronwall

Lilja-Lebda

Chelios or Quincey

Who knows though, the Wings could ice 5 quality lines and 4 or 5 good sets of D with what they have available to them right now. There's definitely a log jam at this stage of the game so I guess we just trust coaches/management to sort it out at training camp and let the players who perform the best make the roster. I have faith that they will make the right decisions and not sacrifice any budding young stars for the sake of getting under the salary cap. I don't think subtracting any of Quincey/Meech/Lebda/Maltby/Kopecky would really hurt this team in the short or long term given what we have now and what is waiting to come up in the form of Ericcson/Kindl/Smith/Pyett and Helm/Abdelkader/Mursak/Emmerton. I think we'll be just fine but it's just too bad we can't carry a few extra players and their salaries without being over the cap or possibly losing them through the waiver if they're sent down.

[eva unit zero 271]

Ok, I've figured out the solution to the logjam. Split the Wings into two teams. That makes it fair for the rest of the league and solves the logjam the Wings have.

Detroit Red Wings Team A:

Hudler/Zetterberg/Holmstrom

Emmerton/Filppula/Samuelsson

Abdelkader/McGrath/Kopecky

Ritola/Oulahen/Downey

Gelech

Lidstrom/Ericsson

Kindl/Stuart

Lilja/Chelios

Conklin

Howard

Detroit Red Wings Team B:

Franzen/Datsyuk/Hossa

Cleary/Helm/Mursak

Maltby/Draper/McCarty

Axelsson/Leino/Ryno

Haydar

Tardif

Meech/Rafalski

Kronwall/Quincey

Lebda/Pyett

Osgood

Larsson

Certainly not Cup-winning rosters...but both rosters are respectable and could potentially put up a .500 record.