Holland Admits the Obvious

[Heaton 1]

I don't know why you even mentioned those names. I thought the argument was whether Lilja should be kept over guys like Lebda, Meech and Quincey. Why do we have to trade any of our top 4 defensemen to keep Lilja?

We don't and I don't like the idea of trading Lilja because of the wear and tear it would put on the penalty killing defensemen during the regular season. Quincey isn't a top pair PK defensemen and for the past two seasons it has been Lidstrom, Chelios and Lilja racking up the big minutes. If Quincey is lucky, he'll end up being slightly better than Lilja. Meech isn't a defensive defensemen and neither is Lebda. Lilja plays a role that the team needs for the regular season and the playoffs. Stuart will take some PK minutes but it makes more sense to let Lilja take the punishment since he's already shown to be able to flourish in that role.

Lilja may be one of the best #5 defensemen in the league.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

We don't and I don't like the idea of trading Lilja because of the wear and tear it would put on the penalty killing defensemen during the regular season. Quincey isn't a top pair PK defensemen and for the past two seasons it has been Lidstrom, Chelios and Lilja racking up the big minutes. If Quincey is lucky, he'll end up being slightly better than Lilja. Meech isn't a defensive defensemen and neither is Lebda. Lilja plays a role that the team needs for the regular season and the playoffs. Stuart will take some PK minutes but it makes more sense to let Lilja take the punishment since he's already shown to be able to flourish in that role.

Lilja may be one of the best #5 defensemen in the league.

Good point, but you don't need to preach to the choir. I tried to make the point to others about Lilja's ability on the PK.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

We don't and I don't like the idea of trading Lilja because of the wear and tear it would put on the penalty killing defensemen during the regular season. Quincey isn't a top pair PK defensemen and for the past two seasons it has been Lidstrom, Chelios and Lilja racking up the big minutes. If Quincey is lucky, he'll end up being slightly better than Lilja. Meech isn't a defensive defensemen and neither is Lebda. Lilja plays a role that the team needs for the regular season and the playoffs. Stuart will take some PK minutes but it makes more sense to let Lilja take the punishment since he's already shown to be able to flourish in that role.

Lilja may be one of the best #5 defensemen in the league.

Best Heaton post ever.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

I'm going with Lids, he's getting old, pretty much sucks as a D man.

HE'S LAZY AND HE SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!

LAZY AND SUCKS I TELL YOU!!!!!!!!!!!

*ends sarcastic overembelishment*

[eva unit zero 271]

I don't know why you even mentioned those names. I thought the argument was whether Lilja should be kept over guys like Lebda, Meech and Quincey. Why do we have to trade any of our top 4 defensemen to keep Lilja?

Because the guys you would rather keep Lilja ahead of don't have salaries large enough to where cutting them loose clears enough cap space. If it's Lebda, Meech, Quincey, or Chelios that doesn't make the final cut, then we have to make an additional move to clear cap space just to pay for the players on the roster. The Wings aren't going to dump off a roster forward for nothing to keep Lilja over Lebda/Meech/Quincey. But I'll lay it out simply for you. The Wings have, including Chelios and Quincey, 24 roster players. Assuming Chelios and Quincey are at the league minimum (as they are currently unsigned), then the Wings would be over the cap by $550k.

This means Lilja or Lebda. Lebda's $650k doesn't provide much wiggle room, so he may be considered in the group of defensemen whose salaries don't clear enough space. Leaving Lilja by himself as an expendable defenseman with a significant salary. The Wings trade or waive Lilja and receive no roster players in return, cutting down to 23 players and moving to approximately $700k under the cap.

If it's Chelios, Meech or Quincey, the Wings are over the cap by at least $75k with 23 players and have to move someone, and replace them with a player making at least $75k less. This falls under the 'no wiggle room' as mentioned with Lebda. Adding Lebda into the mix, we'll assume for argument Holland wants to have $500k of free space. This means that, assuming that Darren McCarty at $575k takes the place of whatever forward is traded for picks/prospects. It has to be someone making at least $650k just to make the cap, which rules out Downey and Kopecky. To achieve the wiggle room desired, it has to be someone making at least $1,150. This further rules out Maltby, Hudler, and Franzen.

Mikael Samuelsson is the only realistic forward choice left. Would you give up a top-six caliber forward who is paid like a third-liner in Samuelsson and a decent young defenseman in Lebda, Meech, or Quincey in favor of having a career third-pairing defenseman in Lilja and a washed up grinder in McCarty, realizing that it's entirely possible neither player staying would be in the regular lineup while quite possible both of the departing players would?

The only other option to keep Lilja is to trade a top-four defenseman for picks and prospects and leave the forwards alone; hence the earlier question.

Dropping Lilja is the logical choice because even if you feel he is slightly better than Lebda, Quincey, or Meech...he's not better enough to justify any of the required roster shuffling to keep him over them given the cap situation. It's the simplest solution, it also results in the best roster. Unless Holland plans on trading more players away than he needs to, which would be out of character for him, then Lilja being traded or waived is the best move he can make.

[daniel1 32]

I'm not sure where everyone else is getting their data from but according to NHLnumbers.com the Wings are at 56.09mil so far out of the maximum allowed of 56.7mil leaving .610 of cap room left. This figure includes Ericcson's .9 and since he can be sent down this year without passing through waivers the odds of him starting the year in Detroit are pretty much zero unless someone gets injured. So if you subtract his .9 that means we are actually under the cap by 1.51mil. This does NOT include Cheli, Meech or Quincey's salary however. These three will average about .5 each (Meech is currently signed at .48mil so his is a certainty). Cheli already has said it's not about the money so i'm sure he'll take somewhere around 5.5 or so, Quincey will sign for around .5 too probably. So WITH these three signed and Ericcson, Downey and McCarty starting the year in the minors we will probably be close to or right at 56.7mil. If one of Meech or Quincey is traded or waived then we will be around 500,000$ under the cap to start the season. This still leaves us with very good depth on D with Ericcson and either Meech or Quincey down in GR for injury replacements and Lilja/Lebda as our 3rd pair and Cheli as the 8th defensman.

I think Meech and Quincey will be battling it out at training camp to see which one of them gets a spot at GR and which one of them is traded/waived. Why rush Ericsson? He'll play 20min a night at GR compared to maybe 6 or 7 with the Wings unless there's an injury to two of the top 4. The 20min in GR will be much better for his development than the 6 or 7 he'd get with the Wings.

Edited August 24, 2008 by daniel1

[Doggy 130]

I'm not sure where everyone else is getting their data from but according to NHLnumbers.com the Wings are at 56.09mil so far out of the maximum allowed of 56.7mil leaving .610 of cap room left.

Sources that are correct, nhlnumbers is not the most reliable source of info. For example, the signing of Aaron Downey is not listed nor do they have Marian Hossa's salary correct... STILL!!! If you want a clear picture of our cap situation visit the Salary Chart at the top of the page or nhlscap.com for other teams.

The numbers you're talking about are not correct.

[RyanBarnes! 293]

I agree he's not an upgrade over those guys, at least not at his salary.

I don't see how Babcock seems to prefer Lebda. Lilja averaged more minutes per game than Lebda even strength, and a ton more minutes on the PK. Lebda is younger and cheaper than Lilja, but not necessarily better, other than the power play.

Chelios is cheaper, though I'm starting to wonder if he even contributes more on the ice. Lilja could play a full season if called upon, Chelios not so much. It depends on if the Chelios we saw late in the playoffs was due to injury, or just age.

The biggest drawback with Lilja is his salary. Like I said, it makes the most sense on paper, but I'd still be a little surprised the Wings did a sign and trade. We'll see what happens.

It is painfully obvious that re-signing Chelios will be a mistake, a decision based on "politics" (some call it loyalty) rather than logic. Lilja is a more durable 5th or 6th defenseman than Chelios, but ultimately I think Lebda will be leaving.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Because the guys you would rather keep Lilja ahead of don't have salaries large enough to where cutting them loose clears enough cap space. If it's Lebda, Meech, Quincey, or Chelios that doesn't make the final cut, then we have to make an additional move to clear cap space just to pay for the players on the roster. The Wings aren't going to dump off a roster forward for nothing to keep Lilja over Lebda/Meech/Quincey. But I'll lay it out simply for you. The Wings have, including Chelios and Quincey, 24 roster players. Assuming Chelios and Quincey are at the league minimum (as they are currently unsigned), then the Wings would be over the cap by $550k.

This means Lilja or Lebda. Lebda's $650k doesn't provide much wiggle room, so he may be considered in the group of defensemen whose salaries don't clear enough space. Leaving Lilja by himself as an expendable defenseman with a significant salary. The Wings trade or waive Lilja and receive no roster players in return, cutting down to 23 players and moving to approximately $700k under the cap.

If it's Chelios, Meech or Quincey, the Wings are over the cap by at least $75k with 23 players and have to move someone, and replace them with a player making at least $75k less. This falls under the 'no wiggle room' as mentioned with Lebda. Adding Lebda into the mix, we'll assume for argument Holland wants to have $500k of free space. This means that, assuming that Darren McCarty at $575k takes the place of whatever forward is traded for picks/prospects. It has to be someone making at least $650k just to make the cap, which rules out Downey and Kopecky. To achieve the wiggle room desired, it has to be someone making at least $1,150. This further rules out Maltby, Hudler, and Franzen.

Mikael Samuelsson is the only realistic forward choice left. Would you give up a top-six caliber forward who is paid like a third-liner in Samuelsson and a decent young defenseman in Lebda, Meech, or Quincey in favor of having a career third-pairing defenseman in Lilja and a washed up grinder in McCarty, realizing that it's entirely possible neither player staying would be in the regular lineup while quite possible both of the departing players would?

The only other option to keep Lilja is to trade a top-four defenseman for picks and prospects and leave the forwards alone; hence the earlier question.

Dropping Lilja is the logical choice because even if you feel he is slightly better than Lebda, Quincey, or Meech...he's not better enough to justify any of the required roster shuffling to keep him over them given the cap situation. It's the simplest solution, it also results in the best roster. Unless Holland plans on trading more players away than he needs to, which would be out of character for him, then Lilja being traded or waived is the best move he can make.

If that's the situation, then why did Kenny Holland (who many of you think is God), sign Lilja to that contract? It doesn't make sense for him to get that contract only to get traded later on.

[Dabura 12,232]

If that's the situation, then why did Kenny Holland (who many of you think is God), sign Lilja to that contract? It doesn't make sense for him to get that contract only to get traded later on.

Things change with time, often times in unexpected ways. It's a fact of life. You think Kenny was counting on Hossa's agent calling him up and saying, "Hossa wants in for one year and 7.4?"

Losing Lilja will help this team's financial situation and will not hurt the team in any painfully obvious ways. ("Why are we losing?" "Obviously 'cause Lilja isn't here anymore!") Yes, it would be something like a sign and trade, and yes, we'd lose his PK minutes. But as eva has explained quite well, it's a cost-benefit matter, and Lilja, in a logical world, is on the losing end of that stick; he would not be a substantial subtraction, especially considering the fact that all three of the logjam guys are capable of stepping into the lineup. Additionally, Hossa is capable of playing on the PK. I don't call him one of the five best two-way forwards in the game for nothing.

Edited August 24, 2008 by Dabura

[Rice 42]

If that's the situation, then why did Kenny Holland (who many of you think is God), sign Lilja to that contract? It doesn't make sense for him to get that contract only to get traded later on.

He signed Lilja because he wasn't sure if he could come to an agreement with Stuart. He said so himself.

[Dabura 12,232]

That too. Kudos.

[chrisdetroit 189]

I agree he's not an upgrade over those guys, at least not at his salary.

I don't see how Babcock seems to prefer Lebda. Lilja averaged more minutes per game than Lebda even strength, and a ton more minutes on the PK. Lebda is younger and cheaper than Lilja, but not necessarily better, other than the power play.

Chelios is cheaper, though I'm starting to wonder if he even contributes more on the ice. Lilja could play a full season if called upon, Chelios not so much. It depends on if the Chelios we saw late in the playoffs was due to injury, or just age.

The biggest drawback with Lilja is his salary. Like I said, it makes the most sense on paper, but I'd still be a little surprised the Wings did a sign and trade. We'll see what happens.

OK I realize lots of people on LGW hate Lilja and now are using the salary thing to push him out the door but nobody is looking at the facts. Lilja make $1.25 mil a year.

Dumping a slary of $1.25 mil helps very little with the cap situation. Ericsson makes $0.9 mil a year. The difference is $325k. So lets skip the salary issue, it is insignificant. The issue is playing time and ability.

If you want to make an argument about ability, fine but lets not hide behind this salary issue.

[chrisdetroit 189]

Things change with time, often times in unexpected ways. It's a fact of life. You think Kenny was counting on Hossa's agent calling him up and saying, "Hossa wants in for one year and 7.4?"

Losing Lilja will help this team's financial situation and will not hurt the team in any painfully obvious ways. ("Why are we losing?" "Obviously 'cause Lilja isn't here anymore!") Yes, it would be something like a sign and trade, and yes, we'd lose his PK minutes. But as eva has explained quite well, it's a cost-benefit matter, and Lilja, in a logical world, is on the losing end of that stick; he would not be a substantial subtraction, especially considering the fact that all three of the logjam guys are capable of stepping into the lineup. Additionally, Hossa is capable of playing on the PK. I don't call him one of the five best two-way forwards in the game for nothing.

Oh for Christ's sake. You are arguing that you could take a big defenseman who leads the team in blocked shots off the penalty kill and put in a skilled forward to replace him even though you already have 2 forwards on the pk.

I get it that you hate Lilja but be objective. Nobody is gonna substitute Hossa for Lilja on the PK. Hossa is a very good 2 way forward, he isn't a shot blocking defenseman.

What next? You want Hossa to play goal also?

[chrisdetroit 189]

Because the guys you would rather keep Lilja ahead of don't have salaries large enough to where cutting them loose clears enough cap space. If it's Lebda, Meech, Quincey, or Chelios that doesn't make the final cut, then we have to make an additional move to clear cap space just to pay for the players on the roster. The Wings aren't going to dump off a roster forward for nothing to keep Lilja over Lebda/Meech/Quincey. But I'll lay it out simply for you. The Wings have, including Chelios and Quincey, 24 roster players. Assuming Chelios and Quincey are at the league minimum (as they are currently unsigned), then the Wings would be over the cap by $550k.

This means Lilja or Lebda. Lebda's $650k doesn't provide much wiggle room, so he may be considered in the group of defensemen whose salaries don't clear enough space. Leaving Lilja by himself as an expendable defenseman with a significant salary. The Wings trade or waive Lilja and receive no roster players in return, cutting down to 23 players and moving to approximately $700k under the cap.

If it's Chelios, Meech or Quincey, the Wings are over the cap by at least $75k with 23 players and have to move someone, and replace them with a player making at least $75k less. This falls under the 'no wiggle room' as mentioned with Lebda. Adding Lebda into the mix, we'll assume for argument Holland wants to have $500k of free space. This means that, assuming that Darren McCarty at $575k takes the place of whatever forward is traded for picks/prospects. It has to be someone making at least $650k just to make the cap, which rules out Downey and Kopecky. To achieve the wiggle room desired, it has to be someone making at least $1,150. This further rules out Maltby, Hudler, and Franzen.

Mikael Samuelsson is the only realistic forward choice left. Would you give up a top-six caliber forward who is paid like a third-liner in Samuelsson and a decent young defenseman in Lebda, Meech, or Quincey in favor of having a career third-pairing defenseman in Lilja and a washed up grinder in McCarty, realizing that it's entirely possible neither player staying would be in the regular lineup while quite possible both of the departing players would?

The only other option to keep Lilja is to trade a top-four defenseman for picks and prospects and leave the forwards alone; hence the earlier question.

Dropping Lilja is the logical choice because even if you feel he is slightly better than Lebda, Quincey, or Meech...he's not better enough to justify any of the required roster shuffling to keep him over them given the cap situation. It's the simplest solution, it also results in the best roster. Unless Holland plans on trading more players away than he needs to, which would be out of character for him, then Lilja being traded or waived is the best move he can make.

Waived? Come on. As much as you may hate Lilja, he was a starting D-man on the Stanley Cup Champions. There are lots of teams that would trade for him. You might only get prospects but no way do the Wings waive him.

Possible trade bait - Lilja, Lebda, Sammy, Hudler.

[Dabura 12,232]

Calm your ass down, Chris. I never said Hossa should replace Lilja on the PK. My point was that adding a guy like Hossa will help the PK effort -- and that's regardless of whether Lilja goes or stays. Moreover, no one is hiding behind the salary issue. I like Lilja, never had much of a problem with him. But, as eva has been pointing out (apparently to no avail, sadly), money is an issue, as is the availability of roster spots. Chelios will be returning, as will, from the looks of things, Quincey. That would give the Wings a couple dozen roster players and would, in a best-case scenario, put them over the cap by about half a million. That will leave Kenny with a couple options:

1. Lose Lilja

2. Lose Lebda and a forward

If Lebda gets moved, the team's in the cap clear by only about 150k -- too close for comfort. That would necessitate cutting a forward free in addition to axing Lebda. In light of this, it would be better to move Lilja. He's not so much better than Lebda that this should cause the kind of righteous indignation that I'm seeing from some posters. Lilja is not much more valuable than Lebda, if more valuable at all. Certainly not enough to justify the price tag difference. Then you factor in the youngsters waiting eagerly in the wings, one of which could one day be a first-pairing guy in this league, hopefully with this team. Like I said, I don't really have a problem with Lilja -- but considering these points, it wouldn't exactly break my heart to see him go.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

I WANT TO WATCH SOME HOCKEY@@@@

[wingslionstigers 12]

Meech or Quincy may or may not be a better prospect than Lilja or Ledba for this upcoming season. Im not going to waist my time getting into that arguement, but theres one thing for sure. They both have more potential than Ledba or Lilja. Lilja will be gone for sure at the price of his contract he could be replaced with equal and more promising future talent for half the pay. Theres only a spot on the team for either Downey or McCarty, They choose Downey. My predictions are Lilja and McCarty will be gone. Hollands not stupid, hes not going to make this decision based entirely on whats the absolute best for the upcoming season. He wants his team to be good in the future just as much as he wants to win this year. He won't be getting rid of any young prospects.

[Doggy 130]

He won't be getting rid of any young prospects.

He probably won't have a choice. Chances are, he'll have to put Quincey on waivers to send him to GR and I'm pretty sure someone will take him. So why wouldn't he try to get something for him?

I don't think anyone understands this.

Edited August 24, 2008 by Doggy

[swiss_fan 3]

For me, Sammy is a MUST TRADE, and if that will not resolve the defense logjam, it will free up some cap space, what is an important part of the equation

Here is why sammy is a MUST TRADE

1/we can loose him that our roster won t be affected, we have enough quality player to replace him

2/his trade value will never be higher (small salary, just won a cup)

3/the trade can solve our problem of cap space

4/his contract will end up at the end of the year, and he will for sure ask for more (what we can t afford) or leave. Or we need cap space to potentially try to re-sign Franzen and Hossa

regarding of these points, to keep Sammy when we ll have players like Helm or Leino (need confirmation) down, would be nothing else than sentimental.

[Doggy 130]

How does trading Samuelsson resolve the defensive logjam?

[Dabura 12,232]

swiss_fan,

What are you smoking?

[Echolalia 2,961]

If you want to keep Lilja because he was the team's greatest shot-blocker and top "enforcer" on defense, then you need to find a new argument, because these are joke reasons to keep him. Anyone can throw their body in front of a puck to block it, its just a matter of driving it into players' heads to do so. It requires no talent outside of basic coordination,and if thats the difference maker in whether Quincey Erikkson or Meech get in, I have little doubt that they will be willing to throw their body into every puck they see come training camp. In fact, blocking shots is becoming quite common, and as far as I know, our team isn't particularly high on the list of blocked shots, so this is something the rest of our team should probably start working on anyway. Lilja is tough, that I will give you. But he isn't game-decider tough. His decent hit on player A or his draw-to-win fight against player B won't win us games.

Granted, none of our other defensemen have anything special to their games either. Meech? Quincey? They have zero proven skill on the nhl level. However, considering there's so little that the Wings are risking in loosing Lilja's talent to gain something potentially bigger, its worth the possible reward that one of our many overaged prospects is actually better than a top 6 defensman. In the end, trading Lilja will make our team either better or worse, but we can't get worse by much, because he's a number 6 defenseman, and thats not asking a lot to begin with. However, if we get better, then we're improving our team in addition to cutting dead weight on the salary cap. But lets get serious. We're talking about top six defensmen. Whatever Kenny ends up doing, I'm not going to fret about. Our team will still be the greatest defensive team in the league with any of Lilja, Lebda, Quncey, Meech, Erikson, or Chelios in the last two spots.

[swiss_fan 3]

How does trading Samuelsson resolve the defensive logjam?

my first sentence:

if that will not resolve the defense logjam, it will free up some cap space, what is an important part of the equation

[Doggy 130]

my first sentence:

How could it possibly resolve the defensive logjam? Why mention it at all?