Holland Admits the Obvious

[germanwing 154]

Quincey is a top 5-6 NHL defenseman on 25 or more teams in the NHL, as are Lilja, Meech, and Lebda.

The decision of who goes may be as simple as who plays the worst, but more than likely it will be based on the criteria I have been laying out; that it will involve contract and age as well as performance. And that means Quincey and Meech are basically untradable in this aspect, if only because trading them clears no cap space as Quincey is currently unsigned and Meech makes the league minimum over the next two seasons (his cap hit is just above it due to the raising minimum next year) and the Wings must clear at least $75k above the league minimum just to make the cap. The Wings will almost certainly be trading or waiving Lilja...the other option is to trade/waive a cheaper defenseman AND a forward who makes more than a million; that does much more harm to the team than just dropping Lilja, as the forward, likely Samuelsson, is more important to the team and would be replaced by someone who is a significant downgrade, while Lebda/Meech/Quincey would at worst be a minor downgrade.

I agree.

Quincey will make the spot on the roster.

I´ve watched him several times, when he was with the "Ontario London Knigths" in germany!

Keep Kyle, forget Andreas!

[2probert4 8]

Odds are other than D-mac and Downey any red wing player put on Waivers would get picked up including Lilja.

While the people on this board may trash Lilja, he is a big PKer, shot blocker, solid stay at home D-man who would easily be in the top 4 of most of the bottom 10 teams in the league.

And the only reason why D-mac and Downey would make it through is that they are part time players, other than I don't see a team letting Quincey or any other Red Wing player making it through waivers, especially when you consider the respect Holland and Andersson are getting around the league and in the media about their drafting and skill scouting abilities.

But just my opinion!

I heard there was a conference call with coaches picking straws to see who gets Lillypad if he gets waived. For every praise you just sang for Lilja, (yes he blocks shots) its frightening to see him handle the puck, he hardly ever uses his size to his advantage, and he is sloooooooooooooooooooooooow. I think some of the roles he handled in Detroit have been out of necessity and not out of being better than the other defenseman.

[Dabura 12,232]

Not to sound like a hater, but if Lilja's assets are as valuable to this team as people claim they are, he wouldn't be staring down the barrel of a training camp battle.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Wishlist

Hudler gets traded

[Doggy 130]

Wishlist

Hudler gets traded

Your angle is pretty tired. I can't remember reading a post from you that was not intended to bait others.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

I heard there was a conference call with coaches picking straws to see who gets Lillypad if he gets waived. For every praise you just sang for Lilja, (yes he blocks shots) its frightening to see him handle the puck, he hardly ever uses his size to his advantage, and he is sloooooooooooooooooooooooow. I think some of the roles he handled in Detroit have been out of necessity and not out of being better than the other defenseman.

Once again, Lilja is a bottom pairing defenseman. I don't know what people expect from the third pairing on defense with a salary cap in the NHL. Not every player is a Lidstrom, Rafalski, Kronner, etc. Lilja plays his role fine on the Red Wings, despite the "faults" everyone harps on. Besides being fast, what exactly is Brett Lebda providing? I see far more value coming from Lilja than I do from Lebda. Lilja isn't handed a job out of necessity - he's earned it fairly by being an effective penalty killer and shot blocker.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Wishlist

Hudler gets traded

Wishlist:

You stop bashing Hudler in every thread.

[Guest Dump-N-Thump]

Your angle is pretty tired. I can't remember reading a post from you that was not intended to bait others.

Angle? Bait?

Wdf, i cant have an opinion? Im sorry that you get offended so easily because my preference of hockey is different then yours.

Wishlist:

You stop bashing Hudler in every thread.

Name these "every" threads.. I could say the same thing about everyone else who bashes Lilja and Sammy.. So buck up kiddo.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Angle? Bait?

Wdf, i cant have an opinion? Im sorry that you get offended so easily because my preference of hockey is different then yours.

Name these "every" threads.. I could say the same thing about everyone else who bashes Lilja and Sammy.. So buck up kiddo.

I recall one for sure in particular that you created about Hudler. You basically asked why people on LGW liked Hudler, and then proceeded to insult and criticize anyone that thought positively of Hudler (which was almost everyone in the thread). It's pretty clear you don't like Hudler for whatever reason, and make it known whenever possible.

If two people already called you out on your dislike for Hudler in this thread alone, it is pretty blatant that you are excessive in your negative posts towards Hudler.

The phrase in your avatar doesn't help the cause either.

[Dabura 12,232]

Besides being fast, what exactly is Brett Lebda providing?

About the same level play for about half a million fewer dollars at a time when the team's pushing the cap limit and there's a logjam on the blue line.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

About the same level play for about half a million fewer dollars at a time when the team's pushing the cap limit and there's a logjam on the blue line.

That is true and a good point. I suppose from a pure financial standpoint Lebda is a better option for the Red Wings than Lilja. However, I disagree that Lebda brings about the "same level play" as Lilja. Throwing contracts aside, Lilja is a better player than Lebda. Even by just being an effective penalty killer, Lilja trumps Lebda's ability.

Edited September 2, 2008 by GoWings1905

[Dabura 12,232]

Lilja is not substantially better than Lebda or any of the other logjam guys. This is an issue because money is an issue.

The PK won't collapse if he leaves.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

The thing people dont realize is, Lilja's claim to fame is shot blocking and PKing. These are skills that are taught, he's just a good student, nothing more. Rafalski can play the PK, Stuart can block shots, Chelios can do both in a smaller role, and Meech and Quincey were top PK guys in the minors. He's so easily replaceable, that it's silly to defend keeping him for those reasons. I loved the Pain Train thing, but he isnt that anymore, I'd rather see what Quincey or Meech have, because I know what Lilja has.

[Doggy 130]

Angle? Bait?

Wdf, i cant have an opinion? Im sorry that you get offended so easily because my preference of hockey is different then yours.

Name these "every" threads.. I could say the same thing about everyone else who bashes Lilja and Sammy.. So buck up kiddo.

Angle:

to try to get something by indirect or artful means.

Bait:

to entice, especially by trickery or strategy or;

to attack or torment, especially with persistent insults, criticism, or ridicule.

There ya go, Tiger.

[norrisnick 1]

Lilja is not substantially better than Lebda or any of the other logjam guys. This is an issue because money is an issue.

The PK won't collapse if he leaves.

On the PK he absolutely is substantially better than the rest of the logjam guys. There's a reason Lilly is making $1.25M and the rest are barely minimum wage guys. Lilly has a substantial positive trait. Lebda is fast, but even with all that speed he doesn't do anything better than Lilly.

No, but if Lilly doesn't play Cheli almost has to which is something I'm sure Babcock would like to avoid.

[Opie 308]

Not to sound like a hater, but if Lilja's assets are as valuable to this team as people claim they are, he wouldn't be staring down the barrel of a training camp battle.

I agree, however, if this team wasn't so deep he also wouldn't be staring down the barrel of a training camp battle.

I am not saying he is uber valuable to the Wings, but his skills would be very useful to a team like Tampa that has s*** for D right now, sorry they have 2 d-men now that can actually play D. Other than that they have no D!

It is not always what value a player has but what a gm sees his perceived value to be. In Detroit Lilja's value (along with Lebda, Meech, Quincey, Cheli) is a lot less than it would be on a team like Tampa, Florida, Phoenix, LA, St. Louis, etc because they don't have a top 4 that includes anything close to one of Lids-Ralf-Kronwall-Stuart, , let alone all of them.

While Detroit fans may complain about having a player like Lilja, and how he is one of the worst players on the team, think about how a fan of Tampa feels when Lilja is an upgrade over 4 of their 6 d-men.

I still think Lilja being traded makes the most sense because it A) frees up space on the backend and B) clears salary. I just don't think they will trade him just after signing. Not saying they won't but I see a sign in trade as less fair than trading a player under contract (I know we disagree, but it is not like that is the first time we have disagreed).

But in order to trade in my little fair world the Wings have to get rid of 2 players, a forward (Sammy* to free up 1.2 mil ) and a D-man (Lebda, Meech, Quincey to free up the spot ).

It will probably be cleaner and easier to trade Lilja and be done with it in one move.

*Sammy seems like the most likely candidate and with Hossa and Mule and Flip and Huds proving they can be secondary scoring threats Sammy has become expendable.

[egroen 384]

Samy and Lilja would have a lot of trade value - for the same reason I do not want to see them traded - they bring a lot for dirt cheap. Dirt cheap.

Lebda and Meech are redundant on the Wings, could still bring value from the right team needing the new NHL buzzword "puck moving defenceman", so I hope one of them goes.

[eva unit zero 271]

Samy and Lilja would have a lot of trade value - for the same reason I do not want to see them traded - they bring a lot for dirt cheap. Dirt cheap.

Lebda and Meech are redundant on the Wings, could still bring value from the right team needing the new NHL buzzword "puck moving defenceman", so I hope one of them goes.

Lilja is not dirt cheap. He's competing for a job with guys who cost less than half his salary. Sammy is dirt cheap; he's a second-line caliber forward who is paid like a third liner.

So if you want to keep Lilja, you have to give up someone cheaper than Lilja who is close to his level of play AND Sammy. Not worth it.

[egroen 384]

So if you want to keep Lilja, you have to give up someone cheaper than Lilja who is close to his level of play AND Sammy. Not worth it.

You'll have to show me why it would have to be, for instance, Lebda *AND* Samuelsson, because I do not see it.

Lilja is a steal at $1.25 million for two years, there is no question about it, especially in a world where Jeff Finger makes $3.5 million.

I'm not going to cry if Lilja is traded, but I think it makes a lot of sense to keep him and have a feeling I'll prove to be right.

[swiss_fan 3]

I agree

+ It would be wrong to consider sammy's as a lost. For me it would be benefit coz like i ve already stated, he is redundant in our roster and we won't probably able to afford the salary rise he will ask for at the end of the season. So let s take a 2nd round pick for him!

[Dabura 12,232]

You'll have to show me why it would have to be, for instance, Lebda *AND* Samuelsson, because I do not see it.

Room. If Lilja stays put, Kenny would have to move a defenseman and a forward in order to clear up the necessary cap space. As good a PKer as he may be, he's not worth Lebda and Sammy.

[norrisnick 1]

Lilja is not dirt cheap. He's competing for a job with guys who cost less than half his salary. Sammy is dirt cheap; he's a second-line caliber forward who is paid like a third liner.

So if you want to keep Lilja, you have to give up someone cheaper than Lilja who is close to his level of play AND Sammy. Not worth it.

No one that Lilly is competing with is close to as good as he is on the PK. He's our 2nd best PK defenseman. Sammy isn't the 2nd best forward at anything.

Lilly is far more important than Sammy and say Lebda.

[egroen 384]

Room. If Lilja stays put, Kenny would have to move a defenseman and a forward in order to clear up the necessary cap space.

I know "room" is implied, but going over the numbers, it seems to me there is still cap room this year to only lose/trade one defenceman.

[eva unit zero 271]

I know "room" is implied, but going over the numbers, it seems to me there is still cap room this year to only lose/trade one defenceman.

*sigh*

The Wings currently have 22 players signed. The Wings are currently about $400k under the cap. Of the 22 players signed, the Wings have 13 forwards, 7 defensemen, and 2 goalies. They intend to carry 13-8-2. So they intend to have at least one more defenseman than currently signed. We know that Chris Chelios will be on the roster for somewhere between $475k and $850k. Kyle Quincey will also be signed for a two year deal, likely a league minimum deal with a cap hit of $483k just like Meech. So the Wings will be adding a cap hit between $958k and $1.333m to the current figure, pushing them over the cap by between $558k and 933k.

This 'overage' would be for a 24 player roster with 9 defensemen, so they would have to remove one player to reach the maximum 23-man roster limit and one defenseman to reach the desired 8 defensemen. Lilja and possibly Lebda are the only defensemen currently making enough to clear the cap space who are not top-four defensemen on the Wings. If Chelios signs for $567k or higher, Lilja is the only defenseman who can be moved to clear the cap space without an additional player being moved.

And NN...Chelios was on the first PK unit last season, Lilja was on the second with Kronwall. Quincey, Stuart, and Rafalski are also very capable penalty killers. Lilja's importance to the PK diminished greatly with the acquisition of Stuart; a top-four defenseman with puck skills who is defensively quite capable. Had the Wings not retained Stuart, the Lilja moving discussion would not exist...but the Wings would also not have any cap trouble. The Wings have cap trouble because they kept Lilja as insurance in case Stuart left; not because he himself was particularly valuable with Stuart in town. Having Lilja is like Bob Essensa in the 1995 season. He's capable, nice to have around if you need him, and can do the job if he has to...but you already have a bunch of much better options in front of him. Lilja is a solid 3rd pairing defenseman, and that's all he'll ever be. Which is fine, but his salary and age plus the cap crunch and defensive logjam mean he is probably the one being shipped out of town. He is competing for a roster spot with a bunch of guys who have realistic top four potential. The only other guy competing for a spot who doesn't have realistic top-four potential is Lebda; and Lebda's much younger and cheaper, and more likely to be a top-four type guy at some point in his career. Lilja will never be a top-four level defenseman.

[egroen 384]

If Chelios signs for $567k or higher, Lilja is the only defenseman who can be moved to clear the cap space without an additional player being moved.

And if under it could be Lebda....

Meech, Lebda and Quincey do not have top 4 potential, IMO... at least with the Wings. I was actually disappointed with the Lilja signing, because at the time I figured it meant we had him for sure for the next two years for sure, especially when he signed at such a bargain price. When has Holland ever done a sign & trade? Especially when the player gave a nice hefty, hometown discount. You can not argue that we do not have Lilja for at least half of his fair market value.

I dunno - it will be interesting what he does. It may literally come down to who plays best in camp, and if Lilja has played himself off the team, Holland will tell him he will be the #7 or 8 and offer to trade him to a team where he would get much more playing time... that would be a stroke of good fortune and make it easy. But if Lilja is still a top 6 or even 5?

The Filppula signing made all this a lot more difficult.

(and do not *sigh* at me mister, I knew my numbers were right and you proved it so... )

Edited September 3, 2008 by egroen