Yzerfan1999 81 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 Crosby is not the best player in the NHL. Lidstrom is the best. Based on last season, I probably would say Zetterberg and Dats outplayed Crosby also. So a ranking of players who played in the finals would have Crosby no higher than fourth; and that's just from those two teams. Admittedly, those two teams have five of the ten best players in the NHL...so it's no slight to Crosby there. But the best in the world, Crosby is not. Thanks Yoda. Yeah, I would say that Crosby was outplayed by a couple of players on the Wings in the playoffs last year. Crosby would be rated much higher if he had not gone down with an injury last year. It will be really interesting to see the Crosby vs. Ovechkin comparison after this season is done. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
YoungGuns1340 1 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 (edited) I guess I can compare them like you are comparing a 'stacked' 07-08 Pens team to a young / developing Hawks team. Dats may had some playoffs run where he was invisible, but Malkin was a straight up liability. Big difference little lady. I know I'm debating duo-to-duo, but throw Kane / Toews in lieu of Crosby / Malkin and you'll see an entirely different game. Bottom line Malkin hasn't earned his 'value', and quite frankly, I'm not so sure Crosby has either. Good players? Sure. O'ye Hocky-God almighty himself, hardly. Put Crosby on a crappy team and see if he is still god-almighty. Would you trade Dats for Malkin? I know I wouldn't. No need for the hypothetical. 100+ points as an 18/19 year old is Crosby on a crappy team. But a debate with you is clearly devoid of any unbiased factual evidence from your side. So I'll let you wallow in your ironic self-righteous idiocy where you claim a duo that had a combined 126 points as rookies have proved their mettle more than a duo which averaged 94 points a piece as rookies. Edited August 28, 2008 by YoungGuns1340 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 308 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 (edited) No need for the hypothetical. 100+ points as an 18/19 year old is Crosby on a crappy team. But a debate with you is clearly devoid of any unbiased factual evidence from your side. So I'll let you wallow in your ironic self-righteous idiocy where you claim a duo that had a combined 126 points as rookies have proved their mettle more than a duo which averaged 94 points a piece as rookies. Not disagreeing with you but pointing out, that in Det for their rookie seasons Dats and Hank where the farthest thing from the focal point, while Crosby and Malkin where the focal point for all of the Pens Offense. The hatred on this board for Sid is ridiculous, the only thing that keeps it from being worse than the Sammy bashing is that Sammy is on the team that people are rooting for. Sid Crosby will be the greatest player in the league soon, yes Lids is better, and Yes right now Z and Dats defense is a lot better, but he is young and very talented on the offensive side of the puck, he needs to improve in his own end and then yes he will be the greatest player in the league, that is of course assuming Lids has retired by then! (edit) OR that AO hasn't started playing great D! Edited August 28, 2008 by Opie Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doc Holiday 0 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 Yeah, Sidney hasnt earned his value, good one. Please, is Gretzky also not the best player of all time because he was a wuss? Put Crosby on a team like Columbus and they make the playoffs. He's that good. You say Datsyuk for Malkin, how about Datsyuk for Crosby? As much as I love Dats and his feistyness, I'm taking Crosby, he's the best player in the NHL. Your comment about Toews and Kane is just stupid, do you watch the players? Toews is not flash, he's good hockey yes, but not flash. Kane has speed and skill, but he doesnt wow you all the time. When Crosby is healthy, he does, and Malkin helps. (BTW, before you say I'm a Sid Slappie or something along those lines, Im not a huge Crosby fan, and I hate Malkin.) I didn't know Crosby was a brilliant two way player. Sure Crosby has the offensive talent, but Pavel has just about as much of that and a ridiculous amount of defensive skills to boot. Plus Crosby wouldn't mesh as well as Zetterberg. They would turn into the "Not Euro, but still really good" twins. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
UKWING 8 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 Not disagreeing with you but pointing out, that in Det for their rookie seasons Dats and Hank where the farthest thing from the focal point, while Crosby and Malkin where the focal point for all of the Pens Offense. YoungGuns was not referring to dats and hank; he was talking about kane and toews. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 308 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 YoungGuns was not referring to dats and hank; he was talking about kane and toews. D'OH!!! Just me being an asshat again! Sorry YoungGuns I misinterpreted! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 Zetterberg should of been on that list.Not only on the list but in the top 10 in my opinion. You missed the point. Z would have a very low trade value because he is in the last year of a underpaying contract. Whomever would get him in a trade would have to turn around and pay him big bucks to keep him. Hence low trade value. Pavs on the other hand is locked into a long term contract at a very resonable price. Who ever would get him would only have to pay him his current contract at that reasonable price. Hence high trade value. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 I would have thought Luongo would have cracked the top 10 on that list. Lids and Hank should definately be top 15 at the least, and answer this question - what player would you rather have? Anze Kopitar or Rick Nash? The latter replaces the former at no. 13 if it's my list, despite Kopitar being a center and Nash a winger. And Backstrom ahead of Kipper? Again, who would you rather have? You guys are missing the point. The article is about trade value not who is better and a big part of that is what contract they have. A superstar with a short term contract has poor trade value (like Z) because the team that gets him will have to give him a big raise when the existing contract expires. get it? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
chrisdetroit 189 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 Didn't he break most points scored before 20 and most points in first 2 seasons, most assists by a rookie by like 10 or something? Youngest player ever to reach 100 points in a season? Wasn't he the youngest captain to ever be in a Stanley Cup final and youngest player in Team Canada's history? And youngest player ever to win a World Championship scoring title? I just remmeber hearing a bunch of this stuff and don't know exactly if it's all true. I can't stand Crosby as much as the next person, but like most, the reason we hate him so much shows how much respect we have for the guy. Admit it if you want, or keep living in denial about it. But back on topic, Datsyuk with his skills and contract easily puts him top five and the reason hank isn't on the list is because no one would trade for him since his contract will be up after this season and it'd take a lot to get him, and they'd have to be prepared to offer in the 8 to 11 million range to retain him per season. Crosby is a great player - no question, but all those records that you listed are based on his young age. That means that if he were a year or 2 older, he wouldn't have any of those records. When he starts breaking "real" records that were held by the likes of Gretsky or Howe, he will have something that is a testament more to his hockey ability than his birthday. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 308 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 Crosby is a great player - no question, but all those records that you listed are based on his young age. That means that if he were a year or 2 older, he wouldn't have any of those records. When he starts breaking "real" records that were held by the likes of Gretsky or Howe, he will have something that is a testament more to his hockey ability than his birthday. The point in referencing his young age and why it is exaggerated is that being that young will give him more years in the league, and if we infer from what other players have done in their careers it is easy to see that in a couple of years the guy will be even better. Here is the thing, he will mature physically and mentally, with that maturation will come more understanding of his body and a better understanding of how to use it. He will get better, and right now the only thing separating him and the best forwards in the game is Defensive ability, if he picks his game up in his own zone bar none he will be the best forward in the game. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 When he starts breaking "real" records that were held by the likes of Gretsky or Howe, he will have something that is a testament more to his hockey ability than his birthday. This is silly. Too many people try and find faults with Crosby. None of his records matter because they are aged based, he's not the greatest because he needs to develop his defensive game, etc., etc. All this at the same time when Ovechkin is clearly number 1, no one will question that, simply because he scores more goals? In terms of records, what records are you referring to with Howe? I'm pretty sure he only holds records with respect to games played and scoring by a right winger. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MrSandMan Report post Posted August 28, 2008 No need for the hypothetical. 100+ points as an 18/19 year old is Crosby on a crappy team. But a debate with you is clearly devoid of any unbiased factual evidence from your side. So I'll let you wallow in your ironic self-righteous idiocy where you claim a duo that had a combined 126 points as rookies have proved their mettle more than a duo which averaged 94 points a piece as rookies. So in your world a player is only valued at how many times they can put puck in net? Pssst. Hockey is more than just putting the biscuit in the basket. Dats does it all.. score goals, set up, draw attention, plays a wicked defense, and isn't afraid to hit.. Oh, and he doesn't cry to the media. Your Crosby can score goals (whoo-hoo, so can dats!) Crosby can set-up (whoo-hoo, so can dats) Crosby can play mean defensive style game.. NOT! Out of these traits, in your world, your Crosby is the better players can score 2-3 goals, despite he might allow 3-4 goals in his net. Ummmm. Okay! So Lidstrom is overrated to you because he doesn't score 126 goals per season? How many goals does a goalie have to score to be on your list? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MrSandMan Report post Posted August 28, 2008 (edited) Yeah, Sidney hasnt earned his value, good one. Please, is Gretzky also not the best player of all time because he was a wuss? Put Crosby on a team like Columbus and they make the playoffs. He's that good. You say Datsyuk for Malkin, how about Datsyuk for Crosby? As much as I love Dats and his feistyness, I'm taking Crosby, he's the best player in the NHL. Your comment about Toews and Kane is just stupid, do you watch the players? Toews is not flash, he's good hockey yes, but not flash. Kane has speed and skill, but he doesnt wow you all the time. When Crosby is healthy, he does, and Malkin helps. (BTW, before you say I'm a Sid Slappie or something along those lines, Im not a huge Crosby fan, and I hate Malkin.) Okay, let me get this straight... You're not a Sid Slappie, yet you are willing to dismantle a Stanley Cup Champion team to bring in an overrated Crosby? You're "not a huge Crosby fan", yet you would give up Dats, a huge factor of our Stanley Cup championship, for a guy who couldn't deliver when they needed him. Hossa was Pens best player in the SCF, but you want to dismantle our team to bring in Crosby? And you are not a Sid Slappie... no sir, you ARE the Sid Slappie. You're the type of person who would be over at the Pens board celebrating and bashing Detroit if Pens won the cup, pathetic! Edited August 28, 2008 by MrSandMan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernWingsFan 854 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 (edited) Out of these traits, in your world, your Crosby is the better players can score 2-3 goals, despite he might allow 3-4 goals in his net. Ummmm. Okay! Crosby isn't a goaltender, so this argument is moot. So Lidstrom is overrated to you because he doesn't score 126 goals per season? How many goals does a goalie have to score to be on your list? Apples and oranges comparison. While Lidstrom is certainly capable of putting up solid offensive numbers for a defensemen, his primary job is to play DEFENSE. And Lidstrom isn't a winger either. So I don't know how Lidstrom comes into play here as a defenseman when you are trying to justify a duo of wingers against another duo of wingers. Edited August 28, 2008 by SouthernWingsFan Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernWingsFan 854 Report post Posted August 28, 2008 And you are not a Sid Slappie... no sir, you ARE the Sid Slappie. You're the type of person who would be over at the Pens board celebrating and bashing Detroit if Pens won the cup, pathetic! Of course Penguins fans would be doing this if they won since it would be a PENGUINS forum... People here praise the Red Wings are celebrating that the Red Wings won the Cup and some are bashing the Penguins for better/worse, since this is a RED WINGS forum... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Duck Guy 86 Report post Posted August 29, 2008 (edited) lol.... dats should have a higher trade value then Sidney Freakin Crosby??????.... Edited August 29, 2008 by Duck Guy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
WingsFan2008 0 Report post Posted August 29, 2008 Didn't he break most points scored before 20 and most points in first 2 seasons, most assists by a rookie by like 10 or something? Youngest player ever to reach 100 points in a season? Wasn't he the youngest captain to ever be in a Stanley Cup final and youngest player in Team Canada's history? And youngest player ever to win a World Championship scoring title? I just remmeber hearing a bunch of this stuff and don't know exactly if it's all true. I can't stand Crosby as much as the next person, but like most, the reason we hate him so much shows how much respect we have for the guy. Admit it if you want, or keep living in denial about it. But back on topic, Datsyuk with his skills and contract easily puts him top five and the reason hank isn't on the list is because no one would trade for him since his contract will be up after this season and it'd take a lot to get him, and they'd have to be prepared to offer in the 8 to 11 million range to retain him per season. However, with the current NHL rules it's impossible to approach Gretzky's single-season numbers. However, that's not the measure to judge Crosby by. More like if he can get 8 straight MVPs. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Doggy 130 Report post Posted August 29, 2008 However, with the current NHL rules it's impossible to approach Gretzky's single-season numbers. However, that's not the measure to judge Crosby by. More like if he can get 8 straight MVPs. What are you bringing up Gretzky for? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted August 29, 2008 So in your world a player is only valued at how many times they can put puck in net? Pssst. Hockey is more than just putting the biscuit in the basket. Can you help me understand why you are so hard on Crosby with your assumed, all he does is score and not play defense, yet, you don't take that into account with Ovechkin? Crosby is by no means a defensive liability. He is solid in his own end, he's just not the best in the league, but I'd be willing to bet he's one of the best at his age (ignoring Staal). He's certainly better defensively than Ovechkin and he's better defensively than Datsyuk was in his first few years. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
toby91_ca 620 Report post Posted August 29, 2008 However, with the current NHL rules it's impossible to approach Gretzky's single-season numbers. However, that's not the measure to judge Crosby by. More like if he can get 8 straight MVPs. The thing I see all the time is that Crosby isn't that good because he won't break records, win all the MVPs Gretzky has, etc. Someone you can bring a guy like him down like that, but it doesn't apply to any other player in the league....which someone catapults them ahead of him in terms of greatness.....I don't get it. Actually, I think I do get it, probably has something to do with hype, but to be honest, I think the perception of the hype he has received has been....for the lack of a better expression, overhyped. I honestly don't think anyone suggested he was going to break Gretzky's records. He can be a better player than Wayne and still not touch those records. From my perspective and the talk I've heard about the kid for the past 6 or 7 years, nothing, to me, has suggested he hasn't been living up to the hype yet. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted August 29, 2008 Okay, let me get this straight... You're not a Sid Slappie, yet you are willing to dismantle a Stanley Cup Champion team to bring in an overrated Crosby? You're "not a huge Crosby fan", yet you would give up Dats, a huge factor of our Stanley Cup championship, for a guy who couldn't deliver when they needed him. Hossa was Pens best player in the SCF, but you want to dismantle our team to bring in Crosby? And you are not a Sid Slappie... no sir, you ARE the Sid Slappie. You're the type of person who would be over at the Pens board celebrating and bashing Detroit if Pens won the cup, pathetic! My oh my, are you slow or something? First, I never said I would trade Datsyuk for Crosby, I said if given the choice I'd take Sidney, so what, so would half the hockey world. You fault one player for a team not winning the cup? Are you serious? I hate to break it to you, but Pittsburgh as a team failed, not Crosby failed and Hossa succedded. There you go, putting words in my mouth again, dismantle the team? What are you talking about, I bring up a debate between which player I'd rather have, and it becomes dismantling the team? Yeah, I'd be celebrating for a team I hated, with a ton of players I hate, that just beat the team I've loved since I was a baby. Sorry "sir", your the pathetic one, get over yourself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Guest MrSandMan Report post Posted August 30, 2008 My oh my, are you slow or something? First, I never said I would trade Datsyuk for Crosby, I said if given the choice I'd take Sidney, so what, so would half the hockey world. You fault one player for a team not winning the cup? Are you serious? I hate to break it to you, but Pittsburgh as a team failed, not Crosby failed and Hossa succedded. There you go, putting words in my mouth again, dismantle the team? What are you talking about, I bring up a debate between which player I'd rather have, and it becomes dismantling the team? Yeah, I'd be celebrating for a team I hated, with a ton of players I hate, that just beat the team I've loved since I was a baby. Sorry "sir", your the pathetic one, get over yourself. Your post = FAIL! You said it, I didn't put words in your mouth. In case you forgot dips***, here is exactly what you said: "how about Datsyuk for Crosby? As much as I love Dats and his feistyness, I'm taking Crosby " ....and you FAIL! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SouthernWingsFan 854 Report post Posted August 30, 2008 Might want to settle down with the personal attacks there Sparky. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Opie 308 Report post Posted August 30, 2008 Your post = FAIL! You said it, I didn't put words in your mouth. In case you forgot dips***, here is exactly what you said: "how about Datsyuk for Crosby? As much as I love Dats and his feistyness, I'm taking Crosby " ....and you FAIL! While he may have said he would trade Dats for Crosby straight up, what I assume he meant or was referencing was the two completely separate from their teams, just talking about which player he would think is better or has the overall better upside. Nowhere did he say he wanted Holland to rip the cup champion team apart and trade Dats for Crosby which is what you said. You failed, and you are way to wound up about this, but that is just my take. I have been there trust me I get to wound up on this board all of the time. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Yzerfan1999 81 Report post Posted August 30, 2008 Your post = FAIL! You said it, I didn't put words in your mouth. In case you forgot dips***, here is exactly what you said: "how about Datsyuk for Crosby? As much as I love Dats and his feistyness, I'm taking Crosby " ....and you FAIL! How old are you? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
