Schneider waived by Ducks/traded to Atlanta.

[daniel1 32]

That's Burke-o-logical.

You just know that somewhere up in oil country Kevin Lowe is leering down at the flaming orange ball of cap misery in California that is the Burke-o-lantern while wheezing out the words "Excellent Smithers, excellent..."

[norrisnick 1]

Schneider's salary is still the Ducks' responsibility. However, if the Ducks cannot find a taker, as he has now cleared waivers, they can send him to the minors without concern as the cap deadline is within the 30-day window of his waiver date. So look for a Selanne contract soon, and if there is no Schneider trade, he will be sent to the minors regardless of what Burke previously claimed because that is what Burke has to do to field the best roster. He won't be called up and lost on re-entry waivers; he will play in the minors until the end of the season or until traded.

That won't help, eva. Schneider was well past 35 when he signed that contract. He counts against the cap no matter what. He needs to be traded as I believe the league did away with Lou's LTIR exemption he pulled with Mogilny.

[eva unit zero 271]

That won't help, eva. Schneider was well past 35 when he signed that contract. He counts against the cap no matter what. He needs to be traded as I believe the league did away with Lou's LTIR exemption he pulled with Mogilny.

When did I say LTIR?

I said minors. After a player clears waivers, there is a 30-day window in which he can be sent to the minors before he must clear waivers again. Burke said he doesn't intend to use re-entry waivers to dispose of Schneider's cap hit, but the timing of putting Schneider on waivers signals that he was keeping the option of retaining Schneider and banishing him to the minors for the season if he had to as a last resort. If the Ducks cannot find a taker for Schneider nor any other reasonable trade that clears up the necessary cap space, this is what will happen. As Schneider has already cleared waivers, he can be demoted to the minors at a moment's notice at any point from now until the start of the season (and well beyond) if necessary.

The smart thing to do if they are so intent on dumping Schneider is shop Schneider around to all potentially interested teams and take the best offer for 'just Schneider' regardless of what that offer is. But knowing Burke, Schneider is likely to spend at least half the season in the minors before his name gets floated around midseason and then again at the trade deadline. Maybe he gets traded, maybe not. But his chances of seeing time in Anaheim this season are pretty slim.

[norrisnick 1]

When did I say LTIR?

I said minors. After a player clears waivers, there is a 30-day window in which he can be sent to the minors before he must clear waivers again. Burke said he doesn't intend to use re-entry waivers to dispose of Schneider's cap hit, but the timing of putting Schneider on waivers signals that he was keeping the option of retaining Schneider and banishing him to the minors for the season if he had to as a last resort. If the Ducks cannot find a taker for Schneider nor any other reasonable trade that clears up the necessary cap space, this is what will happen. As Schneider has already cleared waivers, he can be demoted to the minors at a moment's notice at any point from now until the start of the season (and well beyond) if necessary.

The smart thing to do if they are so intent on dumping Schneider is shop Schneider around to all potentially interested teams and take the best offer for 'just Schneider' regardless of what that offer is. But knowing Burke, Schneider is likely to spend at least half the season in the minors before his name gets floated around midseason and then again at the trade deadline. Maybe he gets traded, maybe not. But his chances of seeing time in Anaheim this season are pretty slim.

You're missing the point, eva. Even if Schneider suits up for the Iowa Chops he will count against the Ducks' salary cap.

Unless I'm misremembering the league's actions dealing with loopholes after what Lou pulled a while back, I'm pretty sure Matt could drop dead tomorrow and still count against the cap.

[daniel1 32]

You're missing the point, eva. Even if Schneider suits up for the Iowa Chops he will count against the Ducks' salary cap.

Unless I'm misremembering the league's actions dealing with loopholes after what Lou pulled a while back, I'm pretty sure Matt could drop dead tomorrow and still count against the cap.

Yep, seems to me you're correct about this one; unless he had signed a two-way contract there's not much the Quackers can do to get his salary off the books now except hope someone wants him. Unless Burke finds another "semi-retirement" loophole in the CBA Schneider has to be traded in order to shed his salary. Speaking of overpaid washed up salary cap drags; whatever happened to Kasparitis? Didn't someone pay him an ungodly salary to play in the minors for his last year or so? Did that count against the cap or was that in the pre-cap era?

[eva unit zero 271]

You're missing the point, eva. Even if Schneider suits up for the Iowa Chops he will count against the Ducks' salary cap.

Unless I'm misremembering the league's actions dealing with loopholes after what Lou pulled a while back, I'm pretty sure Matt could drop dead tomorrow and still count against the cap.

Schneider would not be assigned to the minors on a conditioning assignment; he would be assigned to the minors period. If he were assigned for injury rehab as Mogilny had been, he would count against the Ducks' cap. But as Schneider is healthy, there is no point to that. Schneider has passed waivers, so he can be assigned to the minors if necessary. If Burke cannot find a trade partner or an alternative option, he will send Schneider to the minors.

McCarty is the same situation, btw, except that he has yet to clear waivers. He will almost certainly be going to Grand Rapids, and will not be counting against the Wings' cap.

[eva unit zero 271]

Yep, seems to me you're correct about this one; unless he had signed a two-way contract there's not much the Quackers can do to get his salary off the books now except hope someone wants him. Unless Burke finds another "semi-retirement" loophole in the CBA Schneider has to be traded in order to shed his salary. Speaking of overpaid washed up salary cap drags; whatever happened to Kasparitis? Didn't someone pay him an ungodly salary to play in the minors for his last year or so? Did that count against the cap or was that in the pre-cap era?

Incorrect. Two-way salaries have nothing to do with whether a player can be sent to the minors. The only thing a two-way salary does is determines if you make a different salary in the AHL than you do in the NHL; basically, it's a way for the NHL club to save money and motivate players who are in that 'maybe' group fighting for the last few roster spots by giving them a monetary goal saying 'if you earn your spot, you'll make a few hundred thousand more in the NHL.' providing an extra kick of motivation. Two-way contracts have nothing to do with whether or not a player counts on the cap.

[daniel1 32]

Incorrect. Two-way salaries have nothing to do with whether a player can be sent to the minors. The only thing a two-way salary does is determines if you make a different salary in the AHL than you do in the NHL; basically, it's a way for the NHL club to save money and motivate players who are in that 'maybe' group fighting for the last few roster spots by giving them a monetary goal saying 'if you earn your spot, you'll make a few hundred thousand more in the NHL.' providing an extra kick of motivation. Two-way contracts have nothing to do with whether or not a player counts on the cap.

Ah the complexities of the cba; good thing the Wings have capologists cause if I was in charge of the math we'd be eternally screwed, lol. Well this must mean that if they send Schneids down that his salary will not count against their cap then? Anyone?.... Beuller?.... Beuller?....

[Doggy 130]

You're missing the point, eva. Even if Schneider suits up for the Iowa Chops he will count against the Ducks' salary cap.

Unless I'm misremembering the league's actions dealing with loopholes after what Lou pulled a while back, I'm pretty sure Matt could drop dead tomorrow and still count against the cap.

You're referring to Lamoriello putting Mogilny on the LTIR exemption list a few years ago? That really has nothing to do with this situation NN. Long term injury relief allows a team to exceed the cap by the amount of the players' salary as long as they comply when the player returns. In that situation, Mogilny was not returning and effectively the Devils had lost his cap hit.

Eva is correct again. While playing in the minors his salary doesn't count against the cap. His age at any time is completely irrelevant. You seem to be confused with something else NN.

[Doggy 130]

Ah the complexities of the cba; good thing the Wings have capologists cause if I was in charge of the math we'd be eternally screwed, lol. Well this must mean that if they send Schneids down that his salary will not count against their cap then? Anyone?.... Beuller?.... Beuller?....

That's correct. He's cleared waivers and can be assigned to the minors. A player in the minors does NOT count against your cap. It's as simple as that. There are no exceptions.

[daniel1 32]

That's correct. He's cleared waivers and can be assigned to the minors. A player in the minors does NOT count against your cap. It's as simple as that. There are no exceptions.

Hmm, I found some info on this on this site - http://proicehockey.about.com/od/learntheg..._salary_cap.htm

It would appear that since Schneids was over 35 that in fact his salary WOULD be counted against the cap regardless if he's sent down, retires, or as NN said; "dies". It seems that the Ducks would evade $100,000 if it but not the rest. I can't vouch for how accurate this site is but it does provide some hope that uncle Burke can't dodge the bullet quite so easily after all. Here's hoping nobody deals with him and he's stuck with Schneids for the year.

The 35-and-Older Clause:

* When a player aged 35 or older signs a multi-year contract, his average salary is counted against the team's salary cap during every year of the contract, even if the player retires before the contract is up.

* If the player is sent to the minor leagues, his cap hit is reduced by $100,000.

[Doggy 130]

Hmm, I found some info on this on this site - http://proicehockey.about.com/od/learntheg..._salary_cap.htm

It would appear that since Schneids was over 35 that in fact his salary WOULD be counted against the cap regardless if he's sent down, retires, or as NN said; "dies". It seems that the Ducks would evade $100,000 if it but not the rest. I can't vouch for how accurate this site is but it does provide some hope that uncle Burke can't dodge the bullet quite so easily after all. Here's hoping nobody deals with him and he's stuck with Schneids for the year.

The 35-and-Older Clause:

* When a player aged 35 or older signs a multi-year contract, his average salary is counted against the team's salary cap during every year of the contract, even if the player retires before the contract is up.

* If the player is sent to the minor leagues, his cap hit is reduced by $100,000.

I've never heard of that. I apologise, I was wrong.

[eva unit zero 271]

Hmm, I found some info on this on this site - http://proicehockey.about.com/od/learntheg..._salary_cap.htm

It would appear that since Schneids was over 35 that in fact his salary WOULD be counted against the cap regardless if he's sent down, retires, or as NN said; "dies". It seems that the Ducks would evade $100,000 if it but not the rest. I can't vouch for how accurate this site is but it does provide some hope that uncle Burke can't dodge the bullet quite so easily after all. Here's hoping nobody deals with him and he's stuck with Schneids for the year.

The 35-and-Older Clause:

* When a player aged 35 or older signs a multi-year contract, his average salary is counted against the team's salary cap during every year of the contract, even if the player retires before the contract is up.

* If the player is sent to the minor leagues, his cap hit is reduced by $100,000.

If that is accurate, then Burke has to trade him to get out from the mess. One other thing....The Ducks, including Bobby Ryan, are currently $3.7m over the cap. This is with 14 forwards, 7 defensemen, and 2 goalies signed. The Ducks intend to trade Schneider to free up his $5.625m in cap space and then sign Teemu Selanne; but they would also need to move another forward and add another defenseman. I will refer again to the trade suggestion I mentioned in the Gonchar thread; The Ducks could trade Schneider for Darryl Sydor. This solves Pittsburgh's offensive defense issue and the Sydor contract issue, whiel moving Schneider's contract but adding a top-six type defenseman to the Ducks. The Ducks can then waive Todd Marchant to offset Sydor's contract, and either lose him on waivers or send him to the minors. Teemu Selanne can thus be signed, and the team can have lines as follows:

Kunitz/Getzlaf/Perry

Ryan/Morrison/Selanne

Niedermayer/Pahlsson/Moen

Miller/Sutherby/Carter

May

Parros

Niedermayer/Beauchemin

Pronger/Huskins

O'Donnell/Sydor

Montador

Giguere

Hiller

If that clause is inaccurate...then you can ignore my post.

[Doggy 130]

From NHLSCAP.com

In addition, 50.5(d)(i)(B)(5) states the following:

All Player Salary and Bonuses earned in a League Year by a Player who is in the second or later year of a multi-year SPC which was signed when the Player was age 35 or older (as of June 30 of the League Year in which the SPC is to be effective), but which Player is not on the Club's Active Roster, Injured Reserve, Injured Non Roster or Non Roster, and regardless of whether, or where, the Player is playing, except to the extent the Player is playing under his SPC in the minor leagues, in which case only the Player Salary and Bonuses in excess of $100,000 shall count towards the calculation of Averaged Club Salary;

I trust NHLSCAP as a reliable source so I would say it's true. Thanks Daniel.

[norrisnick 1]

That's what you get for doubting me...

[edicius 3,269]

The Ducks could trade Schneider for Darryl Sydor. This solves Pittsburgh's offensive defense issue and the Sydor contract issue, whiel moving Schneider's contract but adding a top-six type defenseman to the Ducks.

...and then that puts Pittsburgh approx. $1.8M over the cap.

Edited September 23, 2008 by edicius

[daniel1 32]

I've never heard of that. I apologise, I was wrong.

Don't worry about it; it happens to me a thousand times a day... and that was just yesterday's total lol.

[eva unit zero 271]

...and then that puts Pittsburgh approx. $1.8M over the cap.

Gonchar and Whitney will both be out injured for an extended period. Their combined cap hit is $9m. If they are both out 40 days, which is quite possible given the nature of their injuries, then that would clear up the necessary cap space to acquire Schneider if Sydor were the player traded.

Basically, if the two of them are expected to be out long enough in such a way that either one or both of them would create enough cap relief ($2m) on LTIR to bring in Schneider by trading Sydor, then it is a move Shero should try to make because it means his team will be short one or both of their top defensemen for an extended period.

[daniel1 32]

Gonchar and Whitney will both be out injured for an extended period. Their combined cap hit is $9m. If they are both out 40 days, which is quite possible given the nature of their injuries, then that would clear up the necessary cap space to acquire Schneider if Sydor were the player traded.

Basically, if the two of them are expected to be out long enough in such a way that either one or both of them would create enough cap relief ($2m) on LTIR to bring in Schneider by trading Sydor, then it is a move Shero should try to make because it means his team will be short one or both of their top defensemen for an extended period.

Well not to rain on your parade, but what happens when Gonchar/Whitney come back? Then Shero is in the same boat as Burke is now. I doubt Pitts wants to give up much for Schneids either as the last time they tried that it came back to bite them in the arse. I seem to remember a wee bit of hard feelings when a certain player Pitts acquired in a costly trade decided to sign with Detroit so I doubt they would be willing to offer Burke much for Schneids and seeing as how St. Louis looks like they have to replace Johnson maybe they would be willing to offer more. I wouldn't be surprised to see nobody really want Schneids right now either though as he is expensive and nearly 40. I would assume lots of teams want to see what they have on their own team before they look to pull the trigger on a 5.6mil acquisition.

I'd love to see Burke get his ass fired over this mess, lol.

[eva unit zero 271]

Well not to rain on your parade, but what happens when Gonchar/Whitney come back? Then Shero is in the same boat as Burke is now. I doubt Pitts wants to give up much for Schneids either as the last time they tried that it came back to bite them in the arse. I seem to remember a wee bit of hard feelings when a certain player Pitts acquired in a costly trade decided to sign with Detroit so I doubt they would be willing to offer Burke much for Schneids and seeing as how St. Louis looks like they have to replace Johnson maybe they would be willing to offer more. I wouldn't be surprised to see nobody really want Schneids right now either though as he is expensive and nearly 40. I would assume lots of teams want to see what they have on their own team before they look to pull the trigger on a 5.6mil acquisition.

I'd love to see Burke get his ass fired over this mess, lol.

As I said...Shero trades Sydor for Schneider. That combined with the LTIR relief clears enough space for Schneider. Burke gets Sydor to take Schneider's placce, waives Marchant (who makes the same basic amount as Sydor) as he needs to drop a forward to get Selanne, Miller, and Ryan into the lineup anyway and it's ridiculous to have a fourth liner making that kind of coin. Both teams' issues are solved. Schneider is a UFA at the end of the season, so Pittsburgh has no problem if they don't want to keep him. His cap space would be used up for Malkin's extension; but if he were willing to stay, the Pens would likely be willing to keep him on for an amount under $2.5m for one year at a time.

[Doggy 130]

As I said...Shero trades Sydor for Schneider. That combined with the LTIR relief clears enough space for Schneider. Burke gets Sydor to take Schneider's placce, waives Marchant (who makes the same basic amount as Sydor) as he needs to drop a forward to get Selanne, Miller, and Ryan into the lineup anyway and it's ridiculous to have a fourth liner making that kind of coin. Both teams' issues are solved. Schneider is a UFA at the end of the season, so Pittsburgh has no problem if they don't want to keep him. His cap space would be used up for Malkin's extension; but if he were willing to stay, the Pens would likely be willing to keep him on for an amount under $2.5m for one year at a time.[/font]

But then Shero wouldn't be able to have Whitney and/or Gonchar return until they were in compliance. Long-term injury relief doesn't mean a team can just go over the cap.

I think you guys are also forgetting Shero has a bonus cushion of about $3.7m too.

[norrisnick 1]

But then Shero wouldn't be able to have Whitney and/or Gonchar return until they were in compliance. Long-term injury relief doesn't mean a team can just go over the cap.

I think you guys are also forgetting Shero has a bonus cushion of about $3.7m too.

There is no bonus cushion this year because there is a slight possibility that the PA might opt out of the CBA so there can't be any carry-over. Teams have to treat bonuses as if they were guaranteed salary until a bonus is no longer attainable.

[eva unit zero 271]

There is no bonus cushion this year because there is a slight possibility that the PA might opt out of the CBA so there can't be any carry-over. Teams have to treat bonuses as if they were guaranteed salary until a bonus is no longer attainable.

Until the deadline passes for the PA to reopen the CBA, that is. After that, bonus cushions can be carried over if necessary, assuming the CBA is not reopened.

[norrisnick 1]

Until the deadline passes for the PA to reopen the CBA, that is. After that, bonus cushions can be carried over if necessary, assuming the CBA is not reopened.

That deadline to make a decision is in May of '09.

[eva unit zero 271]

That deadline to make a decision is in May of '09.

I thought I had read somewhere it was in like January or February?