Schneider waived by Ducks/traded to Atlanta.

[ElCapitan 14]

Hey, missed ya on the LandBruiser thread.

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=13323

Here's my "AstroLander".

http://expeditionportal.com/forum/showthre...7756&page=7

Oh, and yeah, Burke's a jaggoff and all that.

Nice Van.

I'm usually on MUD (COMITX) when I have time but I'll have to check out expeportal more.

Good to see Cruiser fans in other places.

Cheers :beerbuddy:

[eva unit zero 271]

Using Lidstrom as your example isn't Apples to Apples. Lidstrom continues to take a home-town discount that still pins him as one of the top paid defensemen in the game. Teemu trying to push through a contract for the league minimum (even though he probably never would) is not proportionally the same as Lidstrom taking $3 million less than what he's worth.

As for Kariya signing with Colorado for what he did....that was before the cap when the NHLPA didn't have to "worry" so much about players signing well below their worth because plenty of others were signing for well over their actual value. One guy sliding in there on the other end of the spectrum was hardly enough to raise eyebrows.

Jeff Finger.

[Guest mindfly]

Using Lidstrom as your example isn't Apples to Apples. Lidstrom continues to take a home-town discount that still pins him as one of the top paid defensemen in the game. Teemu trying to push through a contract for the league minimum (even though he probably never would) is not proportionally the same as Lidstrom taking $3 million less than what he's worth.

As for Kariya signing with Colorado for what he did....that was before the cap when the NHLPA didn't have to "worry" so much about players signing well below their worth because plenty of others were signing for well over their actual value. One guy sliding in there on the other end of the spectrum was hardly enough to raise eyebrows.

Dude, you can't really say lidström is taking a home-town discount, he's still making HUGE amount of money, 7.45M$ every season.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Jeff Finger.

What is this supposed to mean? The Finger signing was an NHLPA dream.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Dude, you can't really say lidström is taking a home-town discount, he's still making HUGE amount of money, 7.45M$ every season.

I absolutely can because its the the *truth*. Lidstrom is the top player in the game, yet he isn't paid as such. If that's not a home-town discount please explain to me what is. The fact that he still makes a "HUGE" amount of money has nothing to do with it.

[brutus 0]

I know what Det and Ana should do... a gm switch for like 3 seasons and see what happens just think about it.... Z on waivers...

I think I just threw up a little in my mouth :battle:

brutus

[eva unit zero 271]

Dude, you can't really say lidström is taking a home-town discount, he's still making HUGE amount of money, 7.45M$ every season.

But he was fourth in Hart voting, and has won five of six Norrises. If you include the lockout season, he has been the best defenseman in the world six of the past seven years. For this season, three defensemen are making more money, although only one has a higher cap hit. Lidstrom had won two in a row and five of the previous six Norris trophies when he signed his extension, which was a pay cut. He is the frontrunner to win the Norris again next season.

When Lidstrom wins the Norris the next two years, he will take a massive discount if he stays around. And the NHLPA won't reject such a contract.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

But he was fourth in Hart voting, and has won five of six Norrises. If you include the lockout season, he has been the best defenseman in the world six of the past seven years. For this season, three defensemen are making more money, although only one has a higher cap hit. Lidstrom had won two in a row and five of the previous six Norris trophies when he signed his extension, which was a pay cut. He is the frontrunner to win the Norris again next season.

When Lidstrom wins the Norris the next two years, he will take a massive discount if he stays around. And the NHLPA won't reject such a contract.

But, he (nor the NHLPA) are going to take something near $1.5 million either, which is a solid analogy for what you're stating Teemu would be able to get away with signing for.

[eva unit zero 271]

But, he (nor the NHLPA) are going to take something near $1.5 million either, which is a solid analogy for what you're stating Teemu would be able to get away with signing for.

While I can't speak to the player's motivation, the NHLPA has allowed that kind of pay cut for a top player who was in his later years in the recent past, so if Selanne were willing to accept that kind of rate then it would happen. The blanket statement 'the NHLPA won't allow it because the player is worth more' doesn't work because if that was the way things worked, then Detroit would have been forced to pay more for Hossa. If a player decides he wants to play a certain place for a certain amount, the union can't just say 'no' and that the player can't agree to that contract. That's not how it works. There are specific conditions that are laid out for how contracts have to be structured that can result in contract rejection; we saw this in the Erat case. Otherwise, it just takes agreement on the terms between the player and the organization. The union has no control over the individual negotiations; just over the environment those negotiations take place in.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

While I can't speak to the player's motivation, the NHLPA has allowed that kind of pay cut for a top player who was in his later years in the recent past, so if Selanne were willing to accept that kind of rate then it would happen.

I like how you state this as if it were fact and part of the NHLPA's set of rules. It isn't.

The blanket statement 'the NHLPA won't allow it because the player is worth more' doesn't work because if that was the way things worked, then Detroit would have been forced to pay more for Hossa.

No they wouldn't have, but they would have to pay a "reasonable" amount for him. $7.45 is reasonable for a player of his calibre......underpaid, but reasonable.

If a player decides he wants to play a certain place for a certain amount, the union can't just say 'no' and that the player can't agree to that contract. That's not how it works. There are specific conditions that are laid out for how contracts have to be structured that can result in contract rejection; we saw this in the Erat case

Stop bringing up the Erat case. We all know that has nothing to do with this situation. Your keep underhandedly posting about this situation trying to add credibility to your case, and I'm well aware how diffirent the sitautions are.

Otherwise, it just takes agreement on the terms between the player and the organization. The union has no control over the individual negotiations; just over the environment those negotiations take place in.

Yes they do, because if players were constantly signing for the league minimum like your suggesting it not only screws the new CBA and salary cap structure (because it makes it beatable and against what the Cap was brought in for), but it also hurts the NHLPA in terms of taking care of its clients. Teemu signing for the league minimum doesn't just affect Teemu, like you seem to think. It affects players all around the NHL and their current market worth. The NHLPA's goal is to keep their net worth where it belongs.

[eva unit zero 271]

Yes they do, because if players were constantly signing for the league minimum like your suggesting it not only screws the new CBA and salary cap structure (because it makes it beatable and against what the Cap was brought in for), but it also hurts the NHLPA in terms of taking care of its clients. Teemu signing for the league minimum doesn't just affect Teemu, like you seem to think. It affects players all around the NHL and their current market worth. The NHLPA's goal is to keep their net worth where it belongs.

Give me one example of when the NHLPA rejected a player's contract because the player agreed to a deal that was worth too little money. One. Just one. That's all you need to do to show that the NHLPA has ever engaged in this behavior. I have never seen anything to suggest that they do or ever have, other than the belief of a few posters on message boards. Sorry, that's hardly conclusive evidence.

[Slave 31]

i hope teemu does sign for league min.... then we go after sundin

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Give me one example of when the NHLPA rejected a player's contract because the player agreed to a deal that was worth too little money. One. Just one. That's all you need to do to show that the NHLPA has ever engaged in this behavior. I have never seen anything to suggest that they do or ever have, other than the belief of a few posters on message boards. Sorry, that's hardly conclusive evidence.

Just one, huh? How about the fact that no one of Teemu's calibre has signed for the amount you're suggesting? What would be more convincing is if you named one player of his level that has signed a contract for the league minimum. That would make a believer out of me.

You don't see it because if a player of his level tried to sign with a team for a contract as ridiculous as the league minimum it would be nulled before the public/media ever got a sniff of it.

[ArcticWing 0]

Selanne might after all play for some other team.

Link

Burke quote

"The least of my worries is how Mathieu Schneider is going to act. He's a great kid and he's a good hockey player

[eva unit zero 271]

Just one, huh? How about the fact that no one of Teemu's quality has ever signed for the amount that you're suggesting? What would be more convincing is you name one player of his level that has signed a contract for the league minimum and you'll make a believer of me.

You don't see it because if a player of his level tried to sign with a team for a contract as ridiculous as the league minimum it would be nulled before the public got a sniff of it.

I did name one.

Paul Kariya. Colorado. NHL star in his prime. Signed for a nearly $9m pay cut to play with Colorado, and it was about $5m less than Anaheim was offering him. Selanne is more justifiable at the league minimum now than Kariya was at $1.2m then.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I did name one.

Paul Kariya. Colorado. NHL star in his prime. Signed for a nearly $9m pay cut to play with Colorado, and it was about $5m less than Anaheim was offering him. Selanne is more justifiable at the league minimum now than Kariya was at $1.2m then.

And I stated that the Kariya signing was before the salary cap era. Before that time, it wasn't as big of a deal....now due to the cap, it is. I already explained that too.

[eva unit zero 271]

And I stated that the Kariya signing was before the salary cap era. Before that time, it wasn't as big of a deal....now due to the cap, it is. I already explained that too.

What about Daniel Alfredsson? Elite offensive forward, Selke contender. His extension is worth less than $4m per year. He is considered by many to be the best player on his line, yet his linemates make better than $7m each. He's also the team captain. Why didn't the NHLPA step in and stop that hurtful action that likely cost a bunch of other players money?

I'll give you a hint: Because it didn't. The way the cap is set up, the teams are going to be spending at least a certain amount, and at most a certain amount every year. They know these amounts going into the season. The contract Selanne signs has NO BEARING on what other players make, because it has no bearing on these amounts. The most impact it could have is increasing the attendance at Ducks games, which in turn increases the cap, in turn increasing the player salaries.

The minimum average player salary will be at least $1,769,565 this season. That is if all teams spent at the cap floor for 23 players. The maximum average player salary is $2,835,000. That would be all teams spending right to the cap for 20 players. The average pre-lockout salary was $1.4m for NHL players. You're telling me that the NHLPA is more concerned now about a player like Selanne taking a pay cut than they were right before the lockout? The average salaries are higher; much higher, yet the top end salaries are noticeably lower. I would say the majority of players have benefitted greatly from the salary cap in that most players make more than they would have made at the same point on the salary scale in 2004. Which is why the union won't care if Selanne decides to play for cheap.

[MacK_Attack 108]

And I stated that the Kariya signing was before the salary cap era. Before that time, it wasn't as big of a deal....now due to the cap, it is. I already explained that too.

Also, Kariya's pay-cut at that point in time allowed him to become an unrestricted free agent much earlier than the required 31-years old at the time. (10-year veterans making less than the league average could opt for Group V free agency back then)

Edited September 18, 2008 by MacK_Attack

[eva unit zero 271]

Also, Kariya's pay-cut at that point in time allowed him to become an unrestricted free agent much earlier than the required 31-years old at the time. (10-year veterans making less than the league average could opt for Group V free agency back then)

Which is why I didn't buy the argument of people who were all 'Kariya's awesome, he took a huge paycut so he could have a chance to win a Stanley Cup!' given the fact that he left Anaheim because they asked him to take a pay cut so that they could afford to add Selanne to a team that had just been to the finals.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

What about Daniel Alfredsson? Elite offensive forward, Selke contender. His extension is worth less than $4m per year. He is considered by many to be the best player on his line, yet his linemates make better than $7m each. He's also the team captain. Why didn't the NHLPA step in and stop that hurtful action that likely cost a bunch of other players money?

I'll give you a hint: Because it didn't.

You want a hint, how about the fact that he's 35 years old. How old are Spezza and Heatley? Did you conveniently leave that out or just forgot about it? How about the fact that he probably would like to be on a contender and help his team out Cap-wise, ala Lidstrom. Again, a *reasonable* decline in salary is not the same as the league minimum for Teemu. I don't know how to explain that any other way.

The way the cap is set up, the teams are going to be spending at least a certain amount, and at most a certain amount every year. They know these amounts going into the season. The contract Selanne signs has NO BEARING on what other players make, because it has no bearing on these amounts. The most impact it could have is increasing the attendance at Ducks games, which in turn increases the cap, in turn increasing the player salaries.

False. Every player signing holds some bearing on all other signings.

The minimum average player salary will be at least $1,769,565 this season. That is if all teams spent at the cap floor for 23 players. The maximum average player salary is $2,835,000. That would be all teams spending right to the cap for 20 players. The average pre-lockout salary was $1.4m for NHL players. You're telling me that the NHLPA is more concerned now about a player like Selanne taking a pay cut than they were right before the lockout? The average salaries are higher; much higher, yet the top end salaries are noticeably lower. I would say the majority of players have benefitted greatly from the salary cap in that most players make more than they would have made at the same point on the salary scale in 2004. Which is why the union won't care if Selanne decides to play for cheap.

Once again, you use averages to define your way of thinking. Yes, the average salary for NHL players is greater than it was pre-lockout, but Teemu isn't your average player. Stating that its ok for him to take Parros-type money with the type of player *Teemu* is is where your averages don't work.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Which is why I didn't buy the argument of people who were all 'Kariya's awesome, he took a huge paycut so he could have a chance to win a Stanley Cup!' given the fact that he left Anaheim because they asked him to take a pay cut so that they could afford to add Selanne to a team that had just been to the finals.

Yet you failed to see that had anything to do with his contract status that season and how the NHLPA viewed it?

[eva unit zero 271]

You want a hint, how about the fact that he's 35 years old. How old are Spezza and Heatley? Did you conveniently leave that out or just forgot about it? How about the fact that he probably would like to be on a contender and help his team out Cap-wise, ala Lidstrom. Again, a *reasonable* decline in salary is not the same as the league minimum for Teemu. I don't know how to explain that any other way.

Once again, you use averages to define your way of thinking. Yes, the average salary for NHL players is greater than it was pre-lockout, but Teemu isn't your average player. Stating that its ok for him to take Parros-type money with the type of player *Teemu* is is where your averages don't work.

Hmm...and now you contradict yourself. You say age is a perfectly reasonable caveat as to why a player who has had no durability or consistency issues should take half of what his linemates are making when many consider him the best player on his line.

For reference, total stats over the past three seasons:

Selanne: 188 GP, 100g-107a-207pt (Avg: 63 GP, 33g-36a-69pt)

Alfredsson: 224 GP, 112g-167a-279pt (Avg: 75 GP, 37g-56a-93pt)

Projecting Teemu's numbers to Alfredsson's average 75 GP gets you 40g-43a-83pt. Which doesn't even account for the fact that Alfredsson has been a Selke contender during those years.

Using your own argument now; Selanne's age makes it ok for him to take a salary that his skill level would otherwise prevent him from being able to take.

Do you think I am just leaving out these details? Perhaps I am conveniently not including them in my argument for a reason, that reason being that I know you or someone else will include them in a counter-argument that only serves to strengthen my point.

You have yet to address the Hossa argument. Hossa was offered at least two contracts with over $100 million in guaranteed money. He turned them down for less than $8m. Please, tell me why the NHLPA didn't butt into that situation. You've already stated that age is justifiable for reduced salary. If it's the fact that Hossa wanted to sign in Detroit and Detroit could only afford a certain amount, well then the idea of Selanne signing for a small contract in Anaheim should never have become an argument because Anaheim is $1.5m over the cap.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Hmm...and now you contradict yourself. You say age is a perfectly reasonable caveat as to why a player who has had no durability or consistency issues should take half of what his linemates are making when many consider him the best player on his line.

I'm in no way contradicting myself. Alfredsson, while an elite player in the league is passed his prime and potential upside. Heatley and Spezza are *just* hitting it now thus their higher salaries. Now before you hit the reply button notice this: Age absolutely plays a part in salary, hence why Teemu could (and should) have a reduced one. However, the league minimum (for the millionth time in this thread) for Teemu is not the same as an average Cap hit for Alf at 4,338,996. Again, a *reasonable* home-town discount to keep his team competitive.

For reference, total stats over the past three seasons:

Selanne: 188 GP, 100g-107a-207pt (Avg: 63 GP, 33g-36a-69pt)

Alfredsson: 224 GP, 112g-167a-279pt (Avg: 75 GP, 37g-56a-93pt)

Projecting Teemu's numbers to Alfredsson's average 75 GP gets you 40g-43a-83pt. Which doesn't even account for the fact that Alfredsson has been a Selke contender during those years.

Using your own argument now; Selanne's age makes it ok for him to take a salary that his skill level would otherwise prevent him from being able to take.

Projecting numbers? You crack me up Eva.

For the second time in this thread, Selanne's age allows him to take a reduced salary, not a ridiculous one (kind of like saying an ideal situation would be Z and Hossa signing extensions next year at $4 million per and Franzen at $2 million)

Do you think I am just leaving out these details?

Yes, because you constantly use numbers in a way that benefit your argument to try and convince people here that you are correct when there are times you aren't.

Perhaps I am conveniently not including them in my argument for a reason, that reason being that I know you or someone else will include them in a counter-argument that only serves to strengthen my point.

That would work if it *actually did* strengthen your point. In this case, it doesn't.

You have yet to address the Hossa argument. Hossa was offered at least two contracts with over $100 million in guaranteed money. He turned them down for less than $8m. Please, tell me why the NHLPA didn't butt into that situation. You've already stated that age is justifiable for reduced salary. If it's the fact that Hossa wanted to sign in Detroit and Detroit could only afford a certain amount, well then the idea of Selanne signing for a small contract in Anaheim should never have become an argument because Anaheim is $1.5m over the cap.

For the love of GOD...Please tell me you're kidding! I feel like a damn broken record. For the third time in this post alone, Hossa signed for a *reasonable* discount to keep the Wings competitive. How many times have I addressed this in this conversation with you alone?

Next, he was not offered atleast two contracts worth over $100 million dollars. I think I figured out why you use numbers and stats so much. It's so that when you exaggerate a number or two people don't question it. The largest total contract Hossa was offered was 9 years/$81 million from Edmonton. He was offered a $56 million (I believe) contract from Pittsburgh. The fact that the total contract was worth as much as it was is moot.

Lastly, even if he was offered over $100 million dollars as you claim over the course of his contract it doesn't mean he has to take that length. The average yearly salary for his largest offer was $9 million per (which is all that's important). His contract in Detroit is only $1.55 million less. For the last time.....*REASONABLE DISCOUNT*.

Sidenote: Yes, I got rid of your font when I quoted you in this post.

Sidenote 2: I'm seriously so bored with this debate now. We're just spinning wheels at this point.

[Guest mindfly]

the whole cap system is messsed up although i gotta say that salarycap, nhlpa-like-associations only work in closed american leagues..

Nhl today

how is a team gonna become superior to another if a player can't choose a contract himself without a possibility that NHLPA will say NO TOO LOW BROOO, A cap that's ridiculously low so a team can't buy more star players.. most team only got 3-4 star players these days, no fun, and the best team won't be able to get the best young players cause they played too good the previous season... when one starts think about it it's pretty sick...

BRING ME THE OLD DAYSSSS or make it more like international soccer where you can buy players even if they got contract, just get the money big boiii!

Edited September 18, 2008 by mindfly

[Zion 93]

You tapped out.