Zetterbergs preseaon stats

[egroen 384]

Starting in '97 Fedorov was producing 60-some points each year (except '03 when he had 82). '04 in Anaheim was right on line with that with 65 points.

In the 4 years before Shanahan came to Detroit he was producing at 1.16 pts/gm and .89 pts/gm his first 4 years in Detroit.

Before coming to Detroit Lang was averaging close to a point per game for a few years and had .75 pts/gm during his stay in Detroit.

My point is there is not "zero" evidence to back this up -- players in Detroit often have less ice time (Detroit usually rolls 4 lines) and greater defensive duties than they might have elsewhere.

[toby91_ca 620]

Starting in '97 Fedorov was producing 60-some points each year (except '03 when he had 82). '04 in Anaheim was right on line with that with 65 points.

In the 4 years before Shanahan came to Detroit he was producing at 1.16 pts/gm and .89 pts/gm his first 4 years in Detroit.

Before coming to Detroit Lang was averaging close to a point per game for a few years and had .75 pts/gm during his stay in Detroit.

My point is there is not "zero" evidence to back this up -- players in Detroit often have less ice time (Detroit usually rolls 4 lines) and greater defensive duties than they might have elsewhere.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy it, or at least I don't believe you've shown any evidence to back it. Instead of just cherry picking years, let's just have a look at their NHL careers in total.

Shanahan - NHL career goals per game without Detroit = .44 (.43 with Detroit), points per game without Detroit = .91 (.88 with Detroit). Also, the time he played with Detroit was probably the lowest scoring period in the NHL during his career.

Lang - NHL career goals per game without Detroit = .27 (.25 with Detroit), points per game without Detroit = .72 (.75 with Detroit).

[egroen 384]

Heh... if you want to do it throughout their entire careers, try Hull and Robitaille

I think Lang and Shanahan's few years preceding their stay in Detroit are more relevent than their entire NHL career.

[toby91_ca 620]

Heh... if you want to do it throughout their entire careers, try Hull and Robitaille

I think Lang and Shanahan's few years preceding their stay in Detroit are more relevent than their entire NHL career.

I've already explained Hull and Robitaille and the significantly different roles they took on when they came to Detroit. Also, their career stats, again, would be inflated by playing in the highest scoring era in hockey, while their years in Detoit came in some of the lowest.

It's fine if you think looking at the years just before coming to Detroit are more relevent, but why did you completely ignore the years just after leaving? Wouldn't they be relevent? If you want to use the age factor, they would have also been older when coming to Detroit as well.

[egroen 384]

It's hard to do with the this Wings team because they tend to hold onto their players. Shanahan is the best example there because he came over while in the middle of his prime, and his points defenitely went down... while still being a first liner.

Yzerman is another great example because he really did play for two different Wings teams. When Bowman came and demanded he focus a lot more on defense, his point decline was huge.

If Zetterberg and Datsyuk were playing on numerous other NHL teams they would not be playing on the penalty kill for almost 3 minutes a game, they would not be checking other teams first lines and they would probably be getting more ice time to concentrate on just being offensive. I do not think I am way out of line with my assumptions here.

Edited October 2, 2008 by egroen

[toby91_ca 620]

It's hard to do with the this Wings team because they tend to hold onto their players. Shanahan is the best example there because he came over while in the middle of his prime, and his points defenitely went down... while still being a first liner.

Yzerman is another great example because he really did play for two different Wings teams. When Bowman came and demanded he focus a lot more on defense, his point decline was huge.

If Zetterberg and Datsyuk were playing on numerous other NHL teams they would not be playing on the penalty kill for almost 3 minutes a game, they would not be checking other teams first lines and they would probably be getting more ice time to concentrate on just being offensive. I do not think I am way out of line with my assumptions here.

I still don't buy the Shanahan argument. He had 2 big years in St. Louis and then his stats the 2 years after that were worse than when he first came to Detroit. His 2nd and 3rd years in Detroit were sub par, but after that, his stats were right back up to where he had historically been. I see no evidence at all of his stat dropping because he played in Detroit.

In Yzerman's case, the theory used by many is that he had sacrificed offensive numbers by focusing more on defense when Bowman came to town, but I'm not a big believer of that. I believe it had more to do with a combination of his knee injury, age and simply a changing in the overall scoring of the NHL in general (i.e. early years when he put up big numbers, were higher scoring years for the NHL, while later on, general scoring reduced).

[egroen 384]

I still don't buy the Shanahan argument. He had 2 big years in St. Louis and then his stats the 2 years after that were worse than when he first came to Detroit. His 2nd and 3rd years in Detroit were sub par, but after that, his stats were right back up to where he had historically been. I see no evidence at all of his stat dropping because he played in Detroit.

In Yzerman's case, the theory used by many is that he had sacrificed offensive numbers by focusing more on defense when Bowman came to town, but I'm not a big believer of that. I believe it had more to do with a combination of his knee injury, age and simply a changing in the overall scoring of the NHL in general (i.e. early years when he put up big numbers, were higher scoring years for the NHL, while later on, general scoring reduced).

I know I am going to sound condescending, but how old are you... or better put, how much of Yzerman's career have you been able to watch? It was pretty apparent how his game changed and has been well documented over the years. I mean, really apparent. Bowman almost had Yzerman traded because they were butting heads over this very issue. I highly doubt when Bowman and Yzerman talk about this later they are lieing or making excuses for what you seem to attribute to a degradation of his play.

Yzerman first missed 16 games in '88 because of a knee injury. He scored over 150 pts the very next season with 3rd liners. Three seasons he was above 125 pts, 6 seasons in a row over 100. Bowman comes to town and he never scores 100 pts again.

Do you really think a player like Bure would have been as offensively productive if Bowman was coaching him and riding his ass all day to play defense? You really do not think that might play a large factor? Really? You do not think Datsyuk and Zetterberg sacrifice offense in order to be Selke finalists? You think Detroit is typical for the style of play the organization demands of its forwards?

Edited October 2, 2008 by egroen

[toby91_ca 620]

I know I am going to sound condescending, but how old are you... or better put, how much of Yzerman's career have you been able to watch? It was pretty apparent how his game changed and has been well documented over the years. I mean, really apparent. Bowman almost had Yzerman traded because they were butting heads over this very issue. I highly doubt when Bowman and Yzerman talk about this they are lieing or making excuses for what you seem to attribute to a degradation of his play.

Yzerman first missed 16 games in '88 because of a knee injury.

Do you really think a player like Bure would have been as offensively productive if Bowman was coaching him and riding his ass all day to play defense? You really do not think that might play a large factor? Really?

Let's just say I'm older than Datsyuk, but younger than Sammy (should be a small enough window). I'm old enough to have watched him for his entire career. I know his game changed significantly, but I'm just going against the grain a little bit and taking the view that his offensive stats did not suffer as much due to his focus on defense as a lot of others might think. I think the other factors played a larger role, that's all.

I guess the problem is, I shared a view that focusing on offense alone and not at all on defense would make you better suited for scoring more pts, but I just haven't seen a lot of evidence of that. I certainly haven't seen a lot of evidence of players producing lower pt totals in Detroit than elsewhere based on my previous comments.

I'm suggested I'm right, it's just a view I have that hasn't really been shown to be completely wrong (in my mind). I could be completely wrong and someone could pull all the stats together to prove it, but I just haven't seen it. To be honest, I think it's only speculation for the most part, some of it makes sense, I just haven't seen it actually unfold in practice.

Edit: the one thing that came to mind that may be accurate between only focusing on offense and no defense and being able to produce more pts because of that is a player that cherry picks every game....maybe in that situation it makes sense, but to be honest, I don't see that happening all that often in the NHL. I know certain players have been accused of it (I won't name names) but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Edit again: I could throw another thought out there as well for interest sake. You could take the point of view of this: the better defense you play, the more likely you are to have the puck heading in the offensive direction vs. sucking on defense and having the puck in your end the whole time.

Edited October 2, 2008 by toby91_ca

[eva unit zero 271]

Let's just say I'm older than Datsyuk, but younger than Sammy (should be a small enough window). I'm old enough to have watched him for his entire career. I know his game changed significantly, but I'm just going against the grain a little bit and taking the view that his offensive stats did not suffer as much due to his focus on defense as a lot of others might think. I think the other factors played a larger role, that's all.

I guess the problem is, I shared a view that focusing on offense alone and not at all on defense would make you better suited for scoring more pts, but I just haven't seen a lot of evidence of that. I certainly haven't seen a lot of evidence of players producing lower pt totals in Detroit than elsewhere based on my previous comments.

I'm suggested I'm right, it's just a view I have that hasn't really been shown to be completely wrong (in my mind). I could be completely wrong and someone could pull all the stats together to prove it, but I just haven't seen it. To be honest, I think it's only speculation for the most part, some of it makes sense, I just haven't seen it actually unfold in practice.

Edit: the one thing that came to mind that may be accurate between only focusing on offense and no defense and being able to produce more pts because of that is a player that cherry picks every game....maybe in that situation it makes sense, but to be honest, I don't see that happening all that often in the NHL. I know certain players have been accused of it (I won't name names) but I don't think it's that big of a deal.

Edit again: I could throw another thought out there as well for interest sake. You could take the point of view of this: the better defense you play, the more likely you are to have the puck heading in the offensive direction vs. sucking on defense and having the puck in your end the whole time.

One problem with your arguments toby..

You argue 'Well, you need to look at career stats.' but then say 'Well, those players were playing in different roles when they came to Detroit.'

That's the entire point. Ray Whitney was generally viewed as a failure by Wings fans, even though he scored just as well per minute in Detroit, because he played on a lower line and received much less PP time. The entire point was that in Detroit, players play in different roles that usually result in lower overall scoring.

Did you not understand that?

[egroen 384]

I could throw another thought out there as well for interest sake. You could take the point of view of this: the better defense you play, the more likely you are to have the puck heading in the offensive direction vs. sucking on defense and having the puck in your end the whole time.

Correct to a point... but there is a reason teams have checking lines that often do not produce offensively -- it is awfully hard to check, especially against the league's premier talent, *AND* produce offensively. You just do not see what Yzerman, Fedorov, Datsyuk and Zetterberg have been able to do very often. It does take a lot out of your game... obviously if you are playing on the PK, but also if you are relentlessly forechecking and backchecking during regular strength. It is utterly exhausting.

Crosby is not a "cherry-picker", he'll forecheck but he will often let up when backchecking. He rarely plays on the PK, except during the last few seconds and for the most part lets his defenseman get the puck to him... which is obviously a traditional role of a forward. So while not a total cherry-picker like Bure was, most of his energy and effort when the other team has the puck in the Penguins zone is still where best to find the open space and to get in the best position to make something happen once his team gets it back.

Others, like Brett Hull would rarely go into the corners or along the boards to get the puck... instead, his energy was finding the open space to be in a scoring position. There is no way Hull would have produced the way he did if he played like Yzerman did later in his career.

Edited October 2, 2008 by egroen

[Lidströmfan 0]

Mats had 114, which is probably the highest, I'd have to check. Mats Naslund had 110, Loob had 106 and Markus Naslund had 104.

Edit - I forgot about Forsberg, he had 116 in 1996, so that would put him as the highest.

Kent Nilsson has the Swedish record with 131 in the 80-81 season with Calgary

Pleas ignore this post as it has already been made

Edited October 3, 2008 by Lidströmfan

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Now Z has 4 goals and 4 assists for 8 points and a +7 in 4 games.

Rest of Top 5-

Franzen: 3G, 2A, 5P, +6 in 4 games

Sammy: 3G, 2A, 5P, -2 in 4 games

Hudler: 0G, 5A, 5P, +5 in 4 games

Lidstrom: 1G, 3A, +3 in 3 games

Really liking Franzen-Z-Hudler line!

[dat's sick 1,002]

Now Z has 4 goals and 4 assists for 8 points and a +7 in 4 games.

Rest of Top 5-

Franzen: 3G, 2A, 5P, +6 in 4 games

Sammy: 3G, 2A, 5P, -2 in 4 games

Hudler: 0G, 5A, 5P, +5 in 4 games

Lidstrom: 1G, 3A, +3 in 3 games

Really liking Franzen-Z-Hudler line!

How about Datsyuk and Hossa? How is their line working out?

[Guest mindfly]

How about Datsyuk and Hossa? How is their line working out?

They have hardly played together :S

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Final Preseason Stats for Top 5

Zetterberg: 4G, 4A, 8P, +7 in 4 games

Lidstrom: 1G, 6A, 7P, +5 in 4 games

Franzen: 5G, 2A, 7P, +7 in 5 games

Hudler: 0G, 6A, 6P, +6 in 5 games

Leino: 3G, 3A, 6P, +4, in 7 games

[Reilly 24]

Final Preseason Stats for Top 5

Zetterberg: 4G, 4A, 8P, +7 in 4 games

Lidstrom: 1G, 6A, 7P, +5 in 4 games

Franzen: 5G, 2A, 7P, +7 in 5 games

Hudler: 0G, 6A, 6P, +6 in 5 games

Leino: 3G, 3A, 6P, +4, in 7 games

What were Datsyuk's and Hossa's? I know they only played a couple games each.