So who's it gonna be?

[GoWings1905 2,694]

If Downey was refusing to fight, why did he cross check Peters, which is a way of saying "LETS GO"

It was clearly evident that Peters wanted to go and Downey was unwilling to fight. Peters made the motion to drop the gloves and Downey responsed with a pointless cross-check that resulted in the only penalty. So yes, Downey was the one to refuse to fight.

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

Yeah, I did kinda rip Lilja because it is clear he does't really know what he is doing when his gloves come off. But I do appreciate that he will at least stand up for his teammates on occasion.

I understand your point of veiw, I just feel that we were sucsesful last season and other years when we won the cup were due to balence, not Downey in particular, but having guys like him, Drake, McCarty, etc..

Dude, he went undefeated as a fighter last year. What did you want him to do, knock people's heads off with one punch? It's not his fault his opponents just want to hug and hang on for dear life.

Only in Detroit can an undefeated enforcer still be maligned by fans.

[skacore 2]

It was clearly evident that Peters wanted to go and Downey was unwilling to fight. Peters made the motion to drop the gloves and Downey responsed with a pointless cross-check that resulted in the only penalty. So yes, Downey was the one to refuse to fight.

Peters loves to play the crowd, looks like you got played bud. Who the F cares if he motioned to drop the gloves, his team was down 2-0, if he REALLY wanted to fight Downey he can go ahead and drop the gloves first. Downey is not afraid of fighting Peters.

Downey has gotten better since then and Peters has gotten worse.

Edited October 6, 2008 by skacore

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Peters loves to play the crowd, looks like you got played bud. Who the F cares if he motioned to drop the gloves, his team was down 2-0, if he REALLY wanted to fight Downey he can go ahead and drop the gloves first. Downey is not afraid of fighting Peters.

Downey has gotten better since then and Peters has gotten worse.

Since Downey provides nothing to the Red Wings besides fighting, he should probably fight when he gets the chance or he is pretty much useless. Downey may not be afraid to fight Peters, but the fact is Downey went to the penalty box alone. That can't happen from a player who does hardly anything else on the ice. Not to mention Downey took other penalties in the game as well.

Judging on the results of the pre-season, Downey in no sense should be the 13th forward. Mac deserves the roster spot over Downey if it comes down to one of him or Downey.

[skacore 2]

Since Downey provides nothing to the Red Wings besides fighting, he should probably fight when he gets the chance or he is pretty much useless. Downey may not be afraid to fight Peters, but the fact is Downey went to the penalty box alone. That can't happen from a player who does hardly anything else on the ice. Not to mention Downey took other penalties in the game as well.

Judging on the results of the pre-season, Downey in no sense should be the 13th forward. Mac deserves the roster spot over Downey if it comes down to one of him or Downey.

Downey took 2 stupid penalties, there's no other way to put it, but he didn't back down from a challenge from Peters like most people think. He's on the team to enforce when necessary, that's it. He shouldn't have to go looking for Peters when the Wings are up 2-0 in the 3rd, but he's out there to keep guys like Peters and Kaleta in line and make sure nothing gets out of hand. There are always threads about whether enforcers reduce cheapshots or not, let's say Downey wasn't on the ice for that particular shift. All of a sudden Peters has a new target with his face towards the boards and back to Peters, but instead it was Downey because Downey drew Peters' attention. Just like the Mayers/Walker/Johnson incident last year, it was late in the 3rd, Wings were up, the 3 guys were stalking Downey... why would Downey go out of his way to fight? He's there to protect his teammates and by having them follow him around, he's doing a pretty good job of that. If Peters or Mayers/Walker/Johnson REALLY wanted to fight they can a) drop their gloves and grab Downey, accept the instigator penalty and then proceed to get their ass kicked, or b) take a healthy run at one of Downey's teammates. Peters is all show. Downey took 2 stupid penalties but other than that he played his role well.

[esteef 2,679]

Since Downey provides nothing to the Red Wings besides fighting, he should probably fight when he gets the chance or he is pretty much useless. Downey may not be afraid to fight Peters, but the fact is Downey went to the penalty box alone. That can't happen from a player who does hardly anything else on the ice. Not to mention Downey took other penalties in the game as well.

Judging on the results of the pre-season, Downey in no sense should be the 13th forward. Mac deserves the roster spot over Downey if it comes down to one of him or Downey.

Downey knows how to fight. He picks his battles, and fighting in pre-season when you're up by two isn't smart. If Peters had run Datsyuk into the boards I think you'd have gotten a different reaction from Downey.

Cheers!

esteef

[dicksmack 33]

As much as I'd like to see Leino or Helm on the roster, fact is, we'd be totally skilled but soft. We had Downey and Drake last year and we were a balanced machine. But, no grit=no cup. As the defending champs, the Wings are going to be targeted and cheap-shotted all season long. We will need to have more than a bitchin' pp to answer it. We will see Leino and Helm filling in and maybe in the playoffs as well...

[GMRwings1983 8,803]

As much as I'd like to see Leino or Helm on the roster, fact is, we'd be totally skilled but soft. We had Downey and Drake last year and we were a balanced machine. But, no grit=no cup. As the defending champs, the Wings are going to be targeted and cheap-shotted all season long. We will need to have more than a bitchin' pp to answer it. We will see Leino and Helm filling in and maybe in the playoffs as well...

Are you saying that Cleary and Stuart's ability to fight for loose pucks along the boards with grit in their faces isn't going to deter opposition from running at our players?

No way, dude. Good luck convincing that to the choir though.

[norrisnick 1]

As much as I'd like to see Leino or Helm on the roster, fact is, we'd be totally skilled but soft. We had Downey and Drake last year and we were a balanced machine. But, no grit=no cup. As the defending champs, the Wings are going to be targeted and cheap-shotted all season long. We will need to have more than a bitchin' pp to answer it. We will see Leino and Helm filling in and maybe in the playoffs as well...

The Wings are plenty gritty. And the type of grit that guys like Cleary, Franzen, Helm, Draper, Stuart, Z, Pavel, and pretty much everyone else on the roster displays is far more important than the type of grit that a Downey or McCarty displays. The willingness to go into high traffic areas and take a hit to make a play is far more important than circling around looking for a fight.

[norrisnick 1]

Are you saying that Cleary and Stuart's ability to fight for loose pucks along the boards with grit in their faces isn't going to deter opposition from running at our players?

No way, dude. Good luck convincing that to the choir though.

There isn't a single agitator, goon, etc... in the NHL that is going to be scared off by anyone. The threat of losing their NHL paychecks because they won't go out and try and punish the opposition is far greater than the threat of maybe getting punched a couple times by the opposing enforcer.

Guys like Tootoo, Avery, Ott, Hollweg, etc... don't give two s***s about who is on the bench or even on the ice. Downey was dressed the night Ian ran Nick. Shouldn't he have been too scared to do so?

[esteef 2,679]

There isn't a single agitator, goon, etc... in the NHL that is going to be scared off by anyone. The threat of losing their NHL paychecks because they won't go out and try and punish the opposition is far greater than the threat of maybe getting punched a couple times by the opposing enforcer.

Guys like Tootoo, Avery, Ott, Hollweg, etc... don't give two s***s about who is on the bench or even on the ice. Downey was dressed the night Ian ran Nick. Shouldn't he have been too scared to do so?

Same old arguments from both sides. Seriously, would anyone really admit they were scared of someone in the league on camera? No, it's not going to COMPLETELY deter douches from running guys, but it sure as hell deters a lot more of those guys from running people. If someone runs our guy and no one does anything, why shouldn't everyone on the f***in' team run somebody?! Ask any star forward if they like having guys like Downey on the team, in fact, start with Zett's comments from last year on this subject.

I will never be convinced that tough guys don't deter more bulls*** from happening than already does.

But I still like you NN.

peace,

esteef

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Downey knows how to fight. He picks his battles, and fighting in pre-season when you're up by two isn't smart. If Peters had run Datsyuk into the boards I think you'd have gotten a different reaction from Downey.

Cheers!

esteef

You are right - Downey does know how to fight. My point is Downey in that situation sure as hell can't be going alone to the penalty box. Taking three bad penalties in a game can't happen. Downey isn't worth dressing if he is going to be taking stupid penalties. I like Downey, and he played his role very well last season. However, from what I have observed in the pre-season, Mac is a better option than Downey right now to be the 13th forward.

Edited October 7, 2008 by GoWings1905

[b.shanafan14 733]

There isn't a single agitator, goon, etc... in the NHL that is going to be scared off by anyone. The threat of losing their NHL paychecks because they won't go out and try and punish the opposition is far greater than the threat of maybe getting punched a couple times by the opposing enforcer.

Guys like Tootoo, Avery, Ott, Hollweg, etc... don't give two s***s about who is on the bench or even on the ice. Downey was dressed the night Ian ran Nick. Shouldn't he have been too scared to do so?

Agree with NN point, enforcers like Downey are good to retaliate for hits such as the one on Nick by Lapperiere, but if your job is to do that kind of stuff, having to answer the bell isn't a deterant, its just part of the job. I do believe that having an enforcer is very important for team morale and I think those that run our skilled guys should have to answer for it, but I don't believe its a deterent at all. If i'm a dueche bag like Hollwegg or Tootoo and I have a guy ass up, face to the boards, lined up for a big goonie hit, i doubt i do a mental inventory of the players on the opposition bench who could kick my ass.

As I said before, I believe having an enforcer is extremely important, but if you are dressing a guy like that for no other reason, and he plays only 5 minutes a night, and he only drops the gloves 1 every 6 or more games, you might as well be dressing 11 forwards the nights he doesn't get into the rough stuff. Comes down to Leino or Helm, Helm is the fourth liner we need, but he is also better off in GR. Leino is a top 3 line guy, but he'd have to bump Sammy to get the spot, which I doubt. Tough decisions indeed. I'd like to see Leino tho

[dicksmack 33]

The Wings are plenty gritty. And the type of grit that guys like Cleary, Franzen, Helm, Draper, Stuart, Z, Pavel, and pretty much everyone else on the roster displays is far more important than the type of grit that a Downey or McCarty displays. The willingness to go into high traffic areas and take a hit to make a play is far more important than circling around looking for a fight.

I appreciate what you're saying but I want our best guys to be protected by more than the power play. If you think a hot shot, skilled team like the Wings won't be cheap-shotted, you're nuts. How about this one: No Zetterberg = No cup. You can't prevent everything but you want to have an answer. I'm not talking just about gritty play in the corners but bald-faced attempts to injure like knee on knees, hits from behind and the head shots that are coming our way. When we run the score up on teams, they are gonna send out their goon: let 'em dance with Downsey (sic)... I think last year, we kept 'em guessing with our forecheck. It might have been Pavel scaring them into coughing up the puck before he stole it, or it may have been Drake coming in with a bomb of a check. I know Pavel did his best and made some good checks but come on... I'm drooling over the thought of all skill all the time but balanced teams win cups.

[Heaton 1]

I appreciate what you're saying but I want our best guys to be protected by more than the power play. If you think a hot shot, skilled team like the Wings won't be cheap-shotted, you're nuts. How about this one: No Zetterberg = No cup. You can't prevent everything but you want to have an answer. I'm not talking just about gritty play in the corners but bald-faced attempts to injure like knee on knees, hits from behind and the head shots that are coming our way. When we run the score up on teams, they are gonna send out their goon: let 'em dance with Downsey (sic)... I think last year, we kept 'em guessing with our forecheck. It might have been Pavel scaring them into coughing up the puck before he stole it, or it may have been Drake coming in with a bomb of a check. I know Pavel did his best and made some good checks but come on... I'm drooling over the thought of all skill all the time but balanced teams win cups.

So basically what you're saying is if we don't find a Drake replacement we won't win the cup? This team is even more balanced than last year, the only player who's gone is Drake.

[SouthernWingsFan 854]

Pretty much a copy/paste job in the lineup thread around the top here, but here it is...

I've only seen one preseason game on TV on NHL Network so I don't know the in's and out's of what's happened this preseason, and I'm a pretty big idiot, but I'm going to still go on my assumptions that Helm and Leino would be better suited with more ice time in the minors vs. just 5 minutes on a 4th line with the big club. With that in mind, I have the final forward spot with a physical/enforcer focus with Downey getting a slight edge over McCarty. Downey was pretty bad yesterday, but I can't judge fairly off just 1 game seen and I think Downey brings the enforcement aspect a little bit better than Mac, while McCarty this day/age won't bring too much more on the offensive side. And we're not looking for this final forward spot to provide offense first.

Regardless of who it is, you won't see much griping from my end. Downey showed the importance of having a tough guy prescence on your team for most of the regular season. Sure he didn't play in the playoffs where the enforcement role is much, much less, but you also got to consider that most minor league hockey action is over and say if Downey or Mac have that final roster spot technically, you still have more players available to you in the NHL playoffs due to minor league playoff action being over.

If Helm or Leino get the final spot though, not really a huge problem to have. We all saw how well Helm perfromed under pressure last year, and from what I've read about Leino and the praise you might just have no choice but to choose him.

[Guest lnvincible]

I think it has to be Helm or Leino, i mean after that preseason they proved them selfs , and man did they do it. My bet is with Helm tho. Helm was with the team in the playoffs and i think Babby has more interested/confidence in Helm being that he played in the playoffs and did great. Im hoping that Leino makes the team tho, i do believe if you put him on a line with Zetter or Hossa or Dat's its gonna be a snipe show Mark my words.

[dicksmack 33]

So basically what you're saying is if we don't find a Drake replacement we won't win the cup? This team is even more balanced than last year, the only player who's gone is Drake.

Obviously, i'm saying that the Wings aren't best suited to repeat without some of the dimension of physical presence we had in Downey and Drake. So they likely won't pass on Downey. Kronwall's our only true banger in that case. And this year we might not have the benefit of Dallas taking out the big boys in Ana and SJ and then caving against us. We might have a much rougher road in the post season this year. I don't think the Wings brass will want to get caught without having addressed the toughness issue. They will be accused of overlooking it--I don't think they will. Leino and Helm can fill for injuries all year assuming there's no risk of waivers or anything.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

In Downeys case, a useless pre-season game, up by 2 with 10 or so minutes to go, and he doesnt fight when challenged. So what? In the regular season, if Peters run is taken on a skilled player, one of two things will happen. 1.) Downey gets him next shift, or 2.) he gets called for a blatant hit from behind. It means nothing. Wait until the regular season to see what Downey is capable, people must forget his 7-1-2 record last year, and he's not even a true heavyweight. BTW, I dont have a problem with Mac getting the role either, I'd like to see what a summer of hard training has done for him.

[Heaton 1]

Obviously, i'm saying that the Wings aren't best suited to repeat without some of the dimension of physical presence we had in Downey and Drake. So they likely won't pass on Downey. Kronwall's our only true banger in that case. And this year we might not have the benefit of Dallas taking out the big boys in Ana and SJ and then caving against us. We might have a much rougher road in the post season this year. I don't think the Wings brass will want to get caught without having addressed the toughness issue. They will be accused of overlooking it--I don't think they will. Leino and Helm can fill for injuries all year assuming there's no risk of waivers or anything.

I'm thoroughly confused by your post now. We have Stuart for a full season who is one of our best and most physical players on the team, he's not that big but he knows how to hit just as well as anyone. We have Downey and McCarty signed, granted it's unknown how many games they'll get in but if it's needed we have them. Kopecky lead the team in hits last year and if he can stay healthy he'll do the same this year (and please spare me with the semantics of the types of hits he gives out).

Your entire point of contention is that we will have a much tougher time beating a SJ or Anaheim in the post season because we don't have Dallas Drake? I love the guy but he didn't make or break our post season run last year. Detroit was too soft two years ago, they were too soft last year and they're too soft this year. I always feel regret whenever I respond to another one of these topics.

[Skiing - Puck 0]

Detroit was too soft two years ago, they were too soft last year and they're too soft this year.

Two years ago - Yes

Last Year - No, I was fine with that make up.

[Heaton 1]

Two years ago - Yes

Last Year - No, I was fine with that make up.

If you were fine with it last year theres no reason not to be fine with it this year considering the Wings have even more tougher components.

[Aussie_Wing 354]

Downey knows how to fight. He picks his battles, and fighting in pre-season when you're up by two isn't smart. If Peters had run Datsyuk into the boards I think you'd have gotten a different reaction from Downey.

Cheers!

esteef

I don’t get this view. Sure we were up, sure he doesn’t have to fight, but why then initiate things by cross checking your opponent which is most likely going to leave him wanting a fight?

[esteef 2,679]

I don’t get this view. Sure we were up, sure he doesn’t have to fight, but why then initiate things by cross checking your opponent which is most likely going to leave him wanting a fight?

Simple. He's just giving him a few "why-I-oughtta's". They both know no one's going to take an unnecessary risk in the pre-season. Peters was just seeing if Downey was dumb enough to bite. Make no mistake though, Downey's got that prick's number for the regular season!

Cheers!

esteef

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Simple. He's just giving him a few "why-I-oughtta's". They both know no one's going to take an unnecessary risk in the pre-season. Peters was just seeing if Downey was dumb enough to bite. Make no mistake though, Downey's got that prick's number for the regular season!

Cheers!

esteef

Are you delusional? Peters would beat Downey's ass, that is if Downey could stand up on his skates for more than one or two punches (which happened in their one fight that I remember). You don't give why-I-oughtta's and run away unless you are Maltby or Avery (and that's what you are paid to do). All he can do is fight, so he better not back away from that.