therock48880 14 Report post Posted October 7, 2008 I find it amusing that some still scoff at the importance of a tough guy (or two or three) on a team. How many Stanley Cup winning teams in the past twenty years made it through the year without having a tough guy on the team? Personally, I can only think of one team and that's Carolina. Having said that, Downey cleared waivers twice last year and will most likely clear them again. This isn't a year-long move, he'll be back up with the Wings at some point this season. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kylee 727 Report post Posted October 7, 2008 this is my favorite Downey fight: great comeback to the video above. downeyyy. love ya man. hope you stay around, true team player. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueMonk 102 Report post Posted October 7, 2008 Not an argument, just a simple question. How did the Wings survive the 82 game grind in '06 and '07 without a fighter? They survived by enduring the indignities their star players suffered. Whether one believes this impacted their confidence and ability to forge bonds as a team to overcome adversity in the ensuing postseason is where I'm guessing some of us part ways. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Heaton 1 Report post Posted October 7, 2008 They survived by enduring the indignities their star players suffered. Whether one believes this impacted their confidence and ability to forge bonds as a team to overcome adversity in the ensuing postseason is where I'm guessing some of us part ways. It's not that some people part ways, it's that the debate becomes frivolous since it's impossible to determine if that was the case or not. It's a fantastic debate to get your post count up since there's no real facts or evidence to prove or disprove it. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted October 7, 2008 They survived by enduring the indignities their star players suffered. Whether one believes this impacted their confidence and ability to forge bonds as a team to overcome adversity in the ensuing postseason is where I'm guessing some of us part ways. I'm seriously hoping you were cracking up typing this. I certainly couldn't do it with a straight face. Putting up 50+ win 110+ point seasons certain shows a lack of confidence... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Texas Wingnut 0 Report post Posted October 7, 2008 O.K. so Downey clears waivers and plays in GR. He's there if needed for a call up, but seriously if someone to "keep the flies off" were that important to Babs then Downey would still be in Detroit. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
thedisappearer 291 Report post Posted October 7, 2008 I think every poster here gets pissed if one of their favorite 3rd or 4th liners is left off the roster. Maybe it's just me, but with the top 3 lines we have this year, Bozo the friggin' Clown could be centering the fourth line, and I'll still be watching every damn game with a chubster. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueMonk 102 Report post Posted October 7, 2008 I'm seriously hoping you were cracking up typing this. I certainly couldn't do it with a straight face. Putting up 50+ win 110+ point seasons certain shows a lack of confidence... I guess confidence is where you find it, but I wouldn't look too hard in a season that ended with a first round elimination at the hands of an 8 seed. As Heaton said, it's a pointless debate where we can submit ad-hoc arguments ad-infinitum. I do have players like Nick Lidstrom and Henrik Zetterberg on my side, though. Just sayin'. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
cnot19 191 Report post Posted October 7, 2008 I guess confidence is where you find it, but I wouldn't look too hard in a season that ended with a first round elimination at the hands of an 8 seed. As Heaton said, it's a pointless debate where we can submit ad-hoc arguments ad-infinitum. I do have players like Nick Lidstrom and Henrik Zetterberg on my side, though. Just sayin'. Yes Lidstrom was very supportive of Downey as well as Z and many others. And im sure we all loved him handing a beatdown to Laperriare after his hit on Nick. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bogeygolfer 4 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 technically yes FWs are Hossa, Homer, Zata, Dats, Flip, Cleary, Huds, Franz, Sammy, Kope, Draper, Maltby (12) DFs are Lids, Rafs, Stuart, Kron, Lils, Lebda, Meech, Quincey (8) Gs are Osgood, Conklin (2) IR/LTIR are D-Mac, J-Ho, Cheli (3) There is your 23 man roster for opening day as of now, obviously if/when Quincey is traded it'll be a 22 man roster on opening day learn to add this makes no sense 12+8+2=22 (minus one for quincey beind traded, 21) the 3 on IR dont count agianst the roster, they are IR!!! Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MacK_Attack 108 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 Leafs are expected to claim an enforcer off waivers tomorrow. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 I guess confidence is where you find it, but I wouldn't look too hard in a season that ended with a first round elimination at the hands of an 8 seed. As Heaton said, it's a pointless debate where we can submit ad-hoc arguments ad-infinitum. I do have players like Nick Lidstrom and Henrik Zetterberg on my side, though. Just sayin'. Babcock has addressed the '06 season and what happened to that team. Rather than the 82 game season being a grind, it came too easy. No adversity, just steamrolling over the competition and winning teams that by all rights should have lost. Had nothing to do with an enforcer. They ran into a team that had been playing playoff hockey for months and the Wings weren't ready. Babcock has made great strides since in making sure the team is ready to compete. You have Nick and Z saying complimentary things about a teammate. Shocking. Ask them flat out whether they believe Downey or Helm make the team better and see if you can get a straight answer. EDIT - Again, not a debate. Just random posting of viewpoints... Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Dominator2005 558 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 Leafs are expected to claim an enforcer off waivers tomorrow. Downey + McLaren to the Leafs??? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
therock48880 14 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 Babcock has addressed the '06 season and what happened to that team. Rather than the 82 game season being a grind, it came too easy. No adversity, just steamrolling over the competition and winning teams that by all rights should have lost. Had nothing to do with an enforcer. They ran into a team that had been playing playoff hockey for months and the Wings weren't ready. Babcock has made great strides since in making sure the team is ready to compete. You have Nick and Z saying complimentary things about a teammate. Shocking. Ask them flat out whether they believe Downey or Helm make the team better and see if you can get a straight answer. EDIT - Again, not a debate. Just random posting of viewpoints... The list of players supporting tough guys is much longer than the names you have listed. Yzerman, Schneider, Lidstrom, Chelios, Z, Dats, Draper are names that come to mind. Schneider went as far as to call them "nuclear bombs" and said that if the opponent had one it would be ideal for the Wings to have at least one also. When saying that, he wasn't necessarily referring to anyone in particular so he wasn't defending a teammate. Yzerman, after an early round loss, said the Wings needed more "McCarty-type" players. However, many LGW members seem to know more about hockey than those players. Helm and Leino (especially Helm) are great talents but it's like making a cake. All of the ingredients must be there. So, I go back to a question I asked earlier, how many teams in the past 20 years won a cup without having a tough guy on the team? Carolina. That's it. Maybe it's a coincidence. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
BlueMonk 102 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 Yes, we could go back and forth, on an on, forever. I'm just not interested. I really have more in common with most folks here than differences, but it's a funny thing about internet forums; people tend to focus on and engage relentlessly over a single topic they differ on. That's often the case here with the role of fighting/enforcers in the NHL. NN, you and I in particular would probably have a thousand things we agree on, not only in hockey but life in general, based on some of the topics we've talked about in the various forums here. Anyway, I'm excited about this team. If Downey clears waivers (and I think he will), I'll still be content knowing he's available for call-up from Grand Rapids. I attended the Boston game and had a chance to see some of the kids up close (hardly any of the regulars played in that game). The future looks bright. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 Leafs are expected to claim an enforcer off waivers tomorrow. I can't wait until I hear similar rumors about the Wings someday. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 The list of players supporting tough guys is much longer than the names you have listed. Yzerman, Schneider, Lidstrom, Chelios, Z, Dats, Draper are names that come to mind. Schneider went as far as to call them "nuclear bombs" and said that if the opponent had one it would be ideal for the Wings to have at least one also. When saying that, he wasn't necessarily referring to anyone in particular so he wasn't defending a teammate. Yzerman, after an early round loss, said the Wings needed more "McCarty-type" players. However, many LGW members seem to know more about hockey than those players. Helm and Leino (especially Helm) are great talents but it's like making a cake. All of the ingredients must be there. So, I go back to a question I asked earlier, how many teams in the past 20 years won a cup without having a tough guy on the team? Carolina. That's it. Maybe it's a coincidence. Carolina had tougher guys playing in that cup run than we did. Downey's 50 games in the regular season are irrelevant. We dominated the regular season in '06 setting an all-time record for fewest fights. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 I can't wait until I hear similar rumors about the Wings someday. Why scrape the bottom of the barrel for an enforcer? That's what I don't get in these spats. The reason Downey is getting sent down is because he's absolutely worthless out on the ice. You should be hoping and praying for a good player that can also play the enforcing role (Ferguson, Robinson, Gillies, hell even Probert or a mid 90s McCarty, etc...). Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NomadFromKazoo 42 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 Will it take Holland and Babcock to have a key player injured from a Cam Janssen style hit until the Wings then realize they made a mistake sending Downey to GR? Silly... As a 30 year fan, had you considered with over 23 guys we want to keep in Detroit this year we sent the guys who didn't need to clear waivers and the guy we thought would clear waivers? Just a thought. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skacore 2 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 Leafs are expected to claim an enforcer off waivers tomorrow. that's great news where did you hear that? I was praying the Leafs would claim MacIntyre.... then Gratton.... now Downey would be great if they play him Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 Downey wont even have to go to GR. He'll stay with the team until Howard comes off the IR, and then will be recalled. No need to get in a panic, I'm a grit slappie and I do believe the Wings will be plenty tough, although I will certainly doubt that if Quincey is dealt away and wney and Mac dont play regularly in and out. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GMRwings1983 8,804 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 (edited) Why scrape the bottom of the barrel for an enforcer? That's what I don't get in these spats. The reason Downey is getting sent down is because he's absolutely worthless out on the ice. You should be hoping and praying for a good player that can also play the enforcing role (Ferguson, Robinson, Gillies, hell even Probert or a mid 90s McCarty, etc...). That's a pipe dream. You have a very unrealistic vision of what an enforcer is, especially since several of the men you named are Hall of Famers. An enforcer does not have to be talented whatsoever, even in today's league. Just look to the other enforcers in the league. And yes I know we're the best team in the league, but it's not because we dress a Euro as the 12th forward instead of an enforcer. There are bigger reasons for the Wings greatness. The fact that an enforcer can't skate and chew gum does not matter for any team's long-term success. They're on the team for a different job. What other Wing is going to do that job? Or do you still believe in duck and cover as you once stated? Edited October 8, 2008 by GMRwings1983 Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MacK_Attack 108 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 that's great news where did you hear that? I was praying the Leafs would claim MacIntyre.... then Gratton.... now Downey would be great if they play him If I had to put money on it, I'd say they're more likely to claim Jeremy Reich. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MacK_Attack 108 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 Downey + McLaren to the Leafs??? McLaren, no. They already have too many defencemen on the roster. They're carrying eight, if you include Ian White, who's going to be used at forward for now. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
norrisnick 1 Report post Posted October 8, 2008 That's a pipe dream. You have a very unrealistic vision of what an enforcer is, especially since several of the men you named are Hall of Famers. An enforcer does not have to be talented whatsoever, even in today's league. Just look to the other enforcers in the league. And yes I know we're the best team in the league, but it's not because we dress a Euro as the 12th forward instead of an enforcer. There are bigger reasons for the Wings greatness. The fact that an enforcer can't skate and chew gum does not matter for any team's long-term success. They're on the team for a different job. What other Wing is going to do that job? Or do you still believe in duck and cover as you once stated? Exactly it's a pipe dream, but it beats the hell out of dreaming about picking up a guy on par with Downey off of waivers. If you're going to dream, dream big. An enforcer does have to be talented to play on this team. What lesser teams do with their rosters is their business. One of the biggest reasons the Wings are great is because to a man they fit into the system they try to play. If you don't fit in, you're not going to be effective and you're not going to stick around very long. If you can't fight. Protect yourself. You have to be borderline retarded to try fight some guy that significantly outclasses you. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
