Would you trade

[FLWINGSFAN4013 5]

crosby possibly one day would want to play for our wings if he has eluded a stanley cup later in his career if the cap allows it, but to trade away two top talents for a single top talent I would not do it.

[Dabura 12,232]

Why is it ok for Dats to ***** about the "officiating" but if Crosby ******* about the "officiating" he is a whiner?

Because, like I said (noticing a trend?), it's an actual staple of Crosby's game, whereas the one time Datsyuk cursed out a zebra was right after one of the worst calls the postseason's ever seen. That's kind of the joke: the call was so bad that even Pavel "Lady Byng" Datsyuk was livid. Crosby, on the other hand, ******* about everything and at every turn. That makes him a whiner -- i.e., one who whines a ton. The Wings are already paying someone to whine; his name is Kirk Maltby.

Crosby's a crybaby, and not nearly as classy as Datsyuk or Zetterberg. And that means a lot to me. I'm sorry if this offends people.

[rage 24]

Because, like I said (noticing a trend?), it's an actual staple of Crosby's game, whereas the one time Datsyuk cursed out a zebra was right after one of the worst calls the postseason's ever seen. That's kind of the joke: the call was so bad that even Pavel "Lady Byng" Datsyuk was livid. Crosby, on the other hand, ******* about everything and at every turn. That makes him a whinr -- i.e., one who whines a ton. The Wings are already paying someone to whine; his name is Kirk Maltby.

Crosby's a crybaby, and not nearly as classy as Datsyuk or Zetterberg. And that means a lot to me. I'm sorry if this offends people.

------------------------------??

You're absolutely right!!!!

obey86

When does Dats *****? I am sorry? Your question was, "Why is it ok for Dats to ***** about the "officiating" but if Crosby ******* about the "officiating" he is a whiner?"

Please Sir/Madam define "whiner".

Pavel Datsyuk and the rest of the Detroit Red Wings actually hold restraint and believe it or not, Crosby is not happy about this. I kid, I kid.

The Pistons were guilty of this the last 3 year IMO! Stop complaining about the calls and improve your game!!!!!!

lol, had2!!

Tool Yo!!!!!!!!!

Edited October 23, 2008 by rage

[EuroTwin 240]

Never in a hundred million bajillion quadrillion years.

I would not trade Crosby for one or both of the Euro Twins. I would not trade for Crosby if all they wanted was Lebda. Or Sammy. It's completely irrational, I won't even try to explain. Just No.

[Guest Crymson]

CROSBY

-21 years old

-Considered top 2 player in NHL by media

-More overall “upside” at this point

-Missed significant time in 2008 season

-Top season of 120 pts

-More of a playmaker

-More dynamic offensively

-Worse defensive player

-Generally does not play on PK unit

-Plays on PP unit

-Less offensive talent on Pens

-Less defensive talent on Pens

-Played with Gonchar last season (good but more of an offensive D-man)

-Won Hart, Art Ross, Pearson

-Considered whiny by Detroiters

-Worse at face-offs last season (51%)

-Did well when thrust into spotlight at young age while carrying a bad team

-Less physical player

-Cannot grow a playoff beard

ZETTERBERG

-28 years old

-Considered top 10 player in NHL by media

-In prime of career, has probably nearly peaked

-Known to be injury-prone

-Top season of 92 points

-More of a scorer

-Less dynamic offensively

-Better defensive player

-Plays on PK unit

-Plays on PP unit

-Superior offensive talent on Wings

-Superior defensive talent on Wings

-Played with Lidstrom nearly every shift last season (considered by some top D-man ever)

-Won Conn Smythe

-Considered non-whiny by Detroiters

-Better at face-offs (55%)

-Allowed to play through mistakes while learning NHL game

-More physical player

-Can grow a playoff beard

I'm sure I missed a bunch of things and may be wrong about some things but I just put this list together real fast. Enlighten me so I can add to the list if need be.

Chemistry?

[obey86 0]

CROSBY

-21 years old

-Considered top 2 player in NHL by media

-More overall “upside” at this point

-Missed significant time in 2008 season

-Top season of 120 pts

-More of a playmaker

-More dynamic offensively

-Worse defensive player

-Plays on PK unit

-Plays on PP unit

-Less offensive talent on Pens

-Less defensive talent on Pens

-Played with Gonchar last season (good but more of an offensive D-man)

-Won Hart, Art Ross, Pearson

-Considered whiny by Detroiters

-Worse at face-offs last season (51%)

-Did well when thrust into spotlight at young age while carrying a bad team

-Less physical player

-Unknown chemistry factor with Wings

-Cannot grow a playoff beard

ZETTERBERG

-28 years old

-Considered top 10 player in NHL by media

-In prime of career, has probably nearly peaked

-Known to be injury-prone

-Top season of 92 points

-More of a scorer

-Less dynamic offensively

-Better defensive player

-Plays on PK unit

-Plays on PP unit

-Superior offensive talent on Wings

-Superior defensive talent on Wings

-Played with Lidstrom nearly every shift last season (considered by some top D-man ever)

-Won Conn Smythe

-Considered non-whiny by Detroiters

-Better at face-offs (55%)

-Allowed to play through mistakes while learning NHL game

-More physical player

-Chemistry with Wings

-Can grow a playoff beard

I'm sure I missed a bunch of things and may be wrong about some things but I just put this list together real fast. Enlighten me so I can add to the list if need be.

[The Secret 304]

Crybaby's whining isn't just restricted to the refs, did you see ANY of the post-game interviews during the Cup finals? It was like Therien and Crybaby were having a contest to see who needed the biggest pacifier shoved in their pie holes at the end of each interview; I was embarrassed for them and I don't even cheer for Pittsburgh. When the Wings lost games Z and Dats accepted the responsibility that they didn't play well enough or hard enough. That's called accountability my friend and it's something Crybaby hasn't learned yet. Whether he ever does is tough to predict; that may just be his nature.

Both Dats and Zet were groomed in the Detroit organization surrounded by legends like Yzerman, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Hull... and on and on. Both Dats and Zet spent years in this organization, being groomed and slowly moved their way up the pecking order until finally... 5 years into their career they were ready to handle the responsibility of being Assistant Captain to Mr. Perfect Nick lidstrom. Perhaps, it was their nature but perhaps they learned alot from spending their whole career in Detroit?!

Now go out there and take any 19, 20, 21 year old kid and give him the massive responsibilities that have been placed upon Crosby and see how they respond! If it were me in that sitaution at that age I would have went missing for weeks at a time from partying my ass off and sharing a piece of my captains C with as many beautiful young ladies as I could. Now to mention that I help lead my team to a Stanley Cup final and lose and now I am supposed to take it graciously? AT that age I would have flipped my lid, I'd have cried and swore and thrown things, I would have been just as pissed a Crosby and I would have been worse then a whiner. I guess it would have better for him in his interview to say "I sucked out there, Our whole team is crap, and we deserved to lose and I am taking it so graciously aren't I!" Bull crap! That kid has the weight of the NHL around his neck, the weight of the Pen organization and the weight of the entire hockey community to bare. All eye's are on him and the biggest gripe is that he's whiney.... wow! I commend him of what he does and how he's doing it. I see him learning and getting better each year and once he matures we will all be watching the next record setter like Gretzky, Lemieux and Yzerman! Surround the kid with what the Red Wing organization provides and he becomes defensive minded, more conservative and more of what Detroit values...duh!

We had Fedorov, one the biggest ******* in the league on our team for how many years. He would take night after night off for his achey breaky heart, or he was always in Stevie's shadow, or because he didn't want to play defense or he was thinking of Anna, or his Dad was controlling his life... thats Red Wing class I suppose! Half of the people on this board would still take that whiney, bitchey, heartless bastard back after all his antics. He never had to Captain the team, was never the face of the league, was never a leader, nor was he classy.

Edited October 23, 2008 by The Secret

[Hank 0]

We had Fedorov, one the biggest ******* in the league on our team for how many years. He would take night after night off for his achey breaky heart, or he was always in Stevie's shadow, or because he didn't want to play defense or he was thinking of Anna, or his Dad was controlling his life... thats Red Wing class I suppose! Half of the people on this board would still take that whiney, bitchey, heartless bastard back after all his antics. He never had to Captain the team, was never the face of the league, was never a leader, nor was he classy.

That is an excellent point.

I like Fedorov, but your assessment of him is bang-on. He took a lot of nights off (although he did play extremely well in the playoffs), left Detroit because he wanted to cast his own shadow and still to this day, his reasons for leaving change over night. I can't recall how many different excuses I've heard.

And yet many Wings fans love and adore this guy. Why? Because he was able to produce on the ice when it mattered. Just like Crosby - who took less money to stay with the Penguins - unlike Fedorov.

I would not trade Crosby for one or both of the Euro Twins. I would not trade for Crosby if all they wanted was Lebda. Or Sammy. It's completely irrational, I won't even try to explain. Just No.

You can't explain. Because anyone who thinks like you is irrational. You wouldn't trade Crosby for Samuelsson? Thank goodness you're not a GM in this league.

The kid crys over some penalties and he's no longer valuable to this team?

There is no excuse or rationale to your line of thinking that could explain why other than a generous helping of jealousy and ignorance.

This kid is 21 years old, has averaged more points-per-game than anyone else since he entered the league, has won the Hart, the Art Ross and led his team to the Cup Finals in less time than Wayne Gretzky did. And all he did last year was lead his team in playoff scoring after missing 2 months with a major leg injury.

Yeah, you're right. This kid is such a whiney baby and headcase that he couldn't possibly fit in with the Wings or provide anything to this team.

I can see people argueing not giving up both Zetts and Dats for Crosby. It's understandable and I appreciate a lot of the insight and reasoning behind it. It's a healthy debate.

But I simply don't understand where people like yourself are coming from. Where is this crazy hate for this kid coming from? 29 other teams in this league would give their left leg, left arm and left nut to get this kid on their clubs.

Ignorance is the only reason why someone like yourself would make such a claim.

Edited October 23, 2008 by Hank

[egroen 384]

Look at other young phenoms from other sports and how they handled themselves, and I would say Crosby has done a commendable job, more than commendable, in fact.

I don't like him, but I'll admit that has more to do with the announcers gushing over him every time he crosses the blueline without tripping, and showing 3 different angles of replays to commemerate the occassion. That's not Crosby's fault, and I know it... he was annointed because of his skill and his maturity (which is very impressive from someone his age, and with such talent and cash); but I will go ahead and keep disliking him simply because he gets so much attention and he does not play for the Red Wings.

But you better bet I would welcome him in a heartbeat on the Red Wings.

[esteef 2,679]

Both Dats and Zet were groomed in the Detroit organization surrounded by legends like Yzerman, Shanahan, Lidstrom, Hull... and on and on. Both Dats and Zet spent years in this organization, being groomed and slowly moved their way up the pecking order until finally... 5 years into their career they were ready to handle the responsibility of being Assistant Captain to Mr. Perfect Nick lidstrom. Perhaps, it was their nature but perhaps they learned alot from spending their whole career in Detroit?!

Now go out there and take any 19, 20, 21 year old kid and give him the massive responsibilities that have been placed upon Crosby and see how they respond! If it were me in that sitaution at that age I would have went missing for weeks at a time from partying my ass off and sharing a piece of my captains C with as many beautiful young ladies as I could. Now to mention that I help lead my team to a Stanley Cup final and lose and now I am supposed to take it graciously? AT that age I would have flipped my lid, I'd have cried and swore and thrown things, I would have been just as pissed a Crosby and I would have been worse then a whiner. I guess it would have better for him in his interview to say "I sucked out there, Our whole team is crap, and we deserved to lose and I am taking it so graciously aren't I!" Bull crap! That kid has the weight of the NHL around his neck, the weight of the Pen organization and the weight of the entire hockey community to bare. All eye's are on him and the biggest gripe is that he's whiney.... wow! I commend him of what he does and how he's doing it. I see him learning and getting better each year and once he matures we will all be watching the next record setter like Gretzky, Lemieux and Yzerman! Surround the kid with what the Red Wing organization provides and he becomes defensive minded, more conservative and more of what Detroit values...duh!

We had Fedorov, one the biggest ******* in the league on our team for how many years. He would take night after night off for his achey breaky heart, or he was always in Stevie's shadow, or because he didn't want to play defense or he was thinking of Anna, or his Dad was controlling his life... thats Red Wing class I suppose! Half of the people on this board would still take that whiney, bitchey, heartless bastard back after all his antics. He never had to Captain the team, was never the face of the league, was never a leader, nor was he classy.

Now his age is the excuse for why he's not up to scratch? Funny! So should we trade for him because he's young, or let him off the hook for all his drawbacks because he's young? Which is it? Maybe they shouldn't have made him captain so early then? I mean why place all the massive responsibilities, the weight of the NHL, the weight of the Pens org, and the weight of the entire hockey community around a "kid's" neck in the first place? Oh yeah, I forgot, cause the Wings did it with Yzerman and Sid's clearly the next Stevie Y.

Of course Dats and Zetts were surrounded by great players and that's why they are all-around better than Crosby. Just because that's not fair to Crosby means we should just ignore the fact that they are better? Point is, how these players got to be comparably different is irrelevant. The fact remains that they are not comparable in terms of a trade between the Wings and the Pens at this time. That's all anybody is saying here. Some people just cannot stand ANY negativity towards the leagues golden boy to the point that they have to vehemently defend him at all costs.

I agree with you on Feds though, he was a little *****.

esteef

[The Secret 304]

Now his age is the excuse for why he's not up to scratch? Funny! So should we trade for him because he's young, or let him off the hook for all his drawbacks because he's young? Which is it? Maybe they shouldn't have made him captain so early then? I mean why place all the massive responsibilities, the weight of the NHL, the weight of the Pens org, and the weight of the entire hockey community around a "kid's" neck in the first place? Oh yeah, I forgot, cause the Wings did it with Yzerman and Sid's clearly the next Stevie Y.

Of course Dats and Zetts were surrounded by great players and that's why they are all-around better than Crosby. Just because that's not fair to Crosby means we should just ignore the fact that they are better? Point is, how these players got to be comparably different is irrelevant. The fact remains that they are not comparable in terms of a trade between the Wings and the Pens at this time. That's all anybody is saying here. Some people just cannot stand ANY negativity towards the leagues golden boy to the point that they have to vehemently defend him at all costs.

I agree with you on Feds though, he was a little *****.

esteef

I do think that age is a factor as most young guys have to spend time in the minor league preparing for the transition to the pro's and in doing so they are taught alot of the skills they will need to succeed (off-ice and on-ice) at the highest level. For most, even after spending time in the minor's, they still need adjusting time when the finally reach the pro rank. Crosby never had that and was put right into the fire and IMHO has done quite well considering. I think due to the fact that he was one of the rare few that have that happen to him it was a logical move for Pitsburgh, who is building their team around him, to make him the Captain... and perhaps they didn't feel that there was anyone else on their team that would be better suited. I think there is also the fact that him being a young phenom able to be put into such a situation is very exciting for most hockey fans and therefore generates alot of money as a bonus. I don't believe that Crosby asked for all the responsibility that has been handed to him, it was proposed, he accepted and is doing the best he knows how at this point in time... and considering all that he is doing a great job. I have not heard 1 legitimate negative factor that proves otherwise. And from where he is at cuurently he can improve if he chooses.

I consider myself a huge Red Wing fan and I have been since the early 80's. But I don't consider myself to be a "homer", I can critique, good and bad, on our beloved team. I am Canadian and if I am a homer about anything, I take extra pride in our sport and the talent we produce and Crosby just happens to be the cream of the Canadian crop! I also like the North American style more as I find it more exciting. Thats not to say that there is no place for european players or their influence but I would like to see more North American players, that fit into our system, brought back into our organization to give us the best mixture of what both European style and North American style bring!

Lastly, whining is annoying by anyone... I don't care for it either but to say "He sucks because he whines!" is crazy. I would agree with the statement "It sucks that he whines!". The kid can play. Defensively he can, and no doubt will, learn. Besides defense doesn't score goals... offense does and both are require to win!

Great debate going on here... keep it clean and its alot of fun eh!

[esteef 2,679]

I do think that age is a factor as most young guys have to spend time in the minor league preparing for the transition to the pro's and in doing so they are taught alot of the skills they will need to succeed (off-ice and on-ice) at the highest level. For most, even after spending time in the minor's, they still need adjusting time when the finally reach the pro rank. Crosby never had that and was put right into the fire and IMHO has done quite well considering. I think due to the fact that he was one of the rare few that have that happen to him it was a logical move for Pitsburgh, who is building their team around him, to make him the Captain... and perhaps they didn't feel that there was anyone else on their team that would be better suited. I think there is also the fact that him being a young phenom able to be put into such a situation is very exciting for most hockey fans and therefore generates alot of money as a bonus. I don't believe that Crosby asked for all the responsibility that has been handed to him, it was proposed, he accepted and is doing the best he knows how at this point in time... and considering all that he is doing a great job. I have not heard 1 legitimate negative factor that proves otherwise. And from where he is at cuurently he can improve if he chooses.

I consider myself a huge Red Wing fan and I have been since the early 80's. But I don't consider myself to be a "homer", I can critique, good and bad, on our beloved team. I am Canadian and if I am a homer about anything, I take extra pride in our sport and the talent we produce and Crosby just happens to be the cream of the Canadian crop! I also like the North American style more as I find it more exciting. Thats not to say that there is no place for european players or their influence but I would like to see more North American players, that fit into our system, brought back into our organization to give us the best mixture of what both European style and North American style bring!

Lastly, whining is annoying by anyone... I don't care for it either but to say "He sucks because he whines!" is crazy. I would agree with the statement "It sucks that he whines!". The kid can play. Defensively he can, and no doubt will, learn. Besides defense doesn't score goals... offense does and both are require to win!

Great debate going on here... keep it clean and its alot of fun eh!

The fact that he didn't spend time in the minors is all the more reason not to make him captain at such a young age. I mean, you're giving yourself all the reasons he shouldn't have been named captain. Him being captain is a gamble IMO. He's captain because basically he's the only one on the Pens who is untouchable as far as trades go because of what they spent on him. He's an exciting player who will put butt's in seats whether he's captain or not. There are legitimate negative factors against him littered throughout this thread (and not just excessive whining), so whether or not you accept them is up to you.

BTW, offense can't score if they don't have the puck (see Wings defense), and all the Wings blueliners would beg to differ with you that "Defense doesn't score goals".

Great debate indeed! Clean is the only way I like it!

esteef

[Datszetter 0]

I personally would not even consider the possibility of ever trading Datsyuk and Zetterberg for Cyndee. Pavs and Z are aguably two of the-if not the best players in the league.

[Dabura 12,232]

how these players got to be comparably different is irrelevant. The fact remains that they are not comparable in terms of a trade between the Wings and the Pens at this time. That's all anybody is saying here. Some people just cannot stand ANY negativity towards the leagues golden boy to the point that they have to vehemently defend him at all costs.

Once again, esteef knows the score.

[egroen 384]

Once again, esteef knows the score.

In the highly improbable world where the Pens were offering Crosby to Detroit, what makes it necessary for Detroit to make Crosby a captain right away, if ever?

[esteef 2,679]

In the highly improbable world where the Pens were offering Crosby to Detroit, what makes it necessary for Detroit to make Crosby a captain right away, if ever?

Nothing.

[egroen 384]

Nothing.

Great! Let's sign him up then, and who cares if he whines occasionaly when he is not a captain or assistant captain? Chelios does it every game!

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

I agree about the bias, but "or" is the key word here.

talk about trading Datsyuk or Zetterberg for Crosby, and there's things to debate and consider. But the thread title says Datsyuk "&" Zetterberg, which would be nuts.

Fair enough

But to some of us the fact that Z and D were able to shut down Crosby is the deciding factor, especially since Crosby can not at the current time shut down Hudler, let alone some one of Z or D's skills.

Some of us think that the defensive part of the game is just as important as the offensive side.

Lets say Crosby scores 15 points more than Z this season, how many goals does Z prevent with his defensive play, how many does Crosby.

To me the trade is a wash, yes Crosby is unbelievably gifted, but Z and D are not light years behind him in skill, they are top 10 in the league as well (IMO) however they are top 3 in the league (by Selke votes) defensively. Crosby is not top 25 in the league defensively.

And it is not like we are picking John Madden over Crosby, a very very good defensive player with limited offensive upside, we are choosing an elite forward in the game who also happens to play elite level defense over an offensive power house.

I do not trade Z or D for Crosby at this time in their careers. In 1, 2, 3, 4 years my opinion may change, but currently there is no value added by bringing in Crosby over Z or D. *Well maybe he puts more butts in the seats.

BTW you being sure that 95% of GM's would take Crosby does not make it an actual fact, until the GM's are polled on the issue it is mere speculation.

Plus are you talking about GM's with none of the players looking at the three or a GM having Z and looking to trade for Crosby.

Hey, don't get me wrong.... Z and Dats are better defensively, I agree with that 100%. You are right, my 95% IS speculation, but GMs have definately been talked to about Crosby and it as another poster pointed out that it is fairly common knowledge that they think that Crosby is the best player in the league. I think that if any GM was given a 1 to 1 trade for Crosby 28 other teams would take it in a heartbeat...... 28 of 30 = 95% even if you say fine Detroit might hesitate because of them being a championship team and he might not fit into the system then ok, that has some merit to it. But one for one on a skill basis including offense and defense I think it's a no brainer.

Then why didn't those same experts give Crosby the Selke that they gave to Pavel? Or why didn't he get the Conn Smyth that Hank got? They were voted on by the "hockey experts"

Actually, I watched the NHL awards show in June and Crosby didn't take home any hardware and all of the hardware was voted on by the hockey "experts"

It seems like you are the one that is biased toward Crosby.

An your "95%" quote is wrong. It's fine to express an opinion but you shouldn't be making stuff up to validate it.

The selke point is irrelevant here and I don't know why you even brought that up as I never claimed Crosby was better. If Pittsburgh won the Cup Crosby would've won the Conn Smythe by the way. Also, seeing as Crosby only played 53 games last year, no wonder he didn't win any awards........ your first two arguements are very weak.

The 95% was an opinion, I'm sorry if I displayed it in poor context. Also, Crosby's offensive abilities does increase his defensive ability. "The best defense is a good offense"........ think about it.

Also, those claiming Z & Dats were solely responsible for shutting down Crosby are ignoring the fact that we had the BEST DEFENSIVE TEAM in the league last year and that is selling the rest of the team short and exaggerating the abilities of Dats & Z on defense.

[redwing_sparty 0]

NEVER EVER!!!!

first of all, crosby looks like a baby where as z looks like a grizzly bear and dats just looks interesting.

2nd - crosby can be easily understood during interviews, where as z has his great swedish accent, and pav just sounds interesting

3rd - crosby lost to the twins ie he can't contribute what they do

4th - crosby sleeps with a bettman doll at night, pav and z sleep with their women

5th - z and pav are both excellent at playing 2 way hockey, they go out and do their job everynight and don't ***** and moan to the press

basically z and p are sweet, crosby while very good player, just isn;t red wings material

[daniel1 32]

We had Fedorov, one the biggest ******* in the league on our team for how many years. He would take night after night off for his achey breaky heart, or he was always in Stevie's shadow, or because he didn't want to play defense or he was thinking of Anna, or his Dad was controlling his life... thats Red Wing class I suppose! Half of the people on this board would still take that whiney, bitchey, heartless bastard back after all his antics. He never had to Captain the team, was never the face of the league, was never a leader, nor was he classy.

I must agree with you here, Fedorov's hold-out and general attitude at times was very un-classy. He was not a true team player at all and that contributes greatly to why I was not all that disappointed that he chose to leave. We are truly lucky to have the type of team-players that we have now but management deserves some credit for weeding out the bad eggs such as Lang, Avery and Williams (maybe i'm reaching with Willy but I never thought he was willing to give 100% effort all the time). Lidstrom definitely sets the tone for a lot of the Swedish players here but guys like Draper and Osgood deserve some credit for agreeing to very reasonable salaries as North American players when they may have been able to get a lot more elsewhere.

Honestly, could you look at our lineup and tell me who is overpaid besides perhaps Hossa and he even took less money to come here than he could have got elsewhere. Our list of UNDERpaid players is massive though and starts with Z and Franzen who definitely deserve a raise this year but even then I bet they will be underpaid compared to similar players throughout the league. If Lidstrom had hit the open market at the end of his last contract I'm willing to bet he fetches 8mil/yr easily and some bottom feeder teams might have even paid more.

Crosby should probably not have been named Captain as soon as he was but I still don't think that completely excuses him from not taking the time to learn, or hire someone to teach him, about modeling responsibility and accountability to the rest of his teamates, especially when it comes to responding to the press.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

The only overpaid players on the Wings are Draper and Maltby and that's due to their loyalty to the club and reputation.

[The Secret 304]

I must agree with you here, Fedorov's hold-out and general attitude at times was very un-classy. He was not a true team player at all and that contributes greatly to why I was not all that disappointed that he chose to leave. We are truly lucky to have the type of team-players that we have now but management deserves some credit for weeding out the bad eggs such as Lang, Avery and Williams (maybe i'm reaching with Willy but I never thought he was willing to give 100% effort all the time). Lidstrom definitely sets the tone for a lot of the Swedish players here but guys like Draper and Osgood deserve some credit for agreeing to very reasonable salaries as North American players when they may have been able to get a lot more elsewhere.

Honestly, could you look at our lineup and tell me who is overpaid besides perhaps Hossa and he even took less money to come here than he could have got elsewhere. Our list of UNDERpaid players is massive though and starts with Z and Franzen who definitely deserve a raise this year but even then I bet they will be underpaid compared to similar players throughout the league. If Lidstrom had hit the open market at the end of his last contract I'm willing to bet he fetches 8mil/yr easily and some bottom feeder teams might have even paid more.

Crosby should probably not have been named Captain as soon as he was but I still don't think that completely excuses him from not taking the time to learn, or hire someone to teach him, about modeling responsibility and accountability to the rest of his teamates, especially when it comes to responding to the press.

I do agree that the Wings organization does everything it can to add pieces to improve each and every year. And looking at our roster there are plenty of players that could be making substantially more elsewhere. I think the players stay for less due to the team philosophy/strategy, the organizations commitment to ice a competitive team every year and equally important that they are treated incredibly well by the organization as well. We have seen plenty of players leave an annual competitor in the Wings to chase more money elsewhere only to find out after that is was a big big mistake... Fedorov, Schneider, Bertuzzi. I've been living in Montreal for almost 2 years now and get to hear how they are the greatest NHL organization in the league yet I don't see players wanting to stay for less nor have they been a great team for the past 15 years. In my opinion there is no better organization in the NHL and possibly in profesional sports. I hope they find a suitable replacement when Mr. Illtich decides to "hang up his skates"... I attribute our teams success to Mr. Illitch and his dedication to the team. Success starts from top down and we are the best because we have the best!

As for Crosby getting the C too soon. You have a legitimate point, he definately could have used some time to mature and learn how to be a Captain of an NHL team but I don't think it as a knock on him, unless he never improves and that has yet to be seen.

If I were to offer you a trade of all your current tools for a fully loaded top line Snap-On tool box filled with top line tools but the draw back was that there was a squeak when you opened the lid and a few of the tools, despite being top notch, needed to be sharpened... would you take it? Or would you pass because of the squeak and because you have to a sharpen few of the tools?

Edited October 24, 2008 by The Secret

[Doogs 0]

I am with the majority here, saying NO WAY would a trade for both be even close to a good deal for the Wings, but to think that a trade 1 to 1 would be anything but a dumb trade for the Pens is dilusional. Crosby is a better player today than Z or Datsuyk. And it is important to know I think the world of both of those guys. Just thought I'd add a perspective from Pittsburgh.

[Opie 308]

I am with the majority here, saying NO WAY would a trade for both be even close to a good deal for the Wings, but to think that a trade 1 to 1 would be anything but a dumb trade for the Pens is dilusional. Crosby is a better player today than Z or Datsuyk. And it is important to know I think the world of both of those guys. Just thought I'd add a perspective from Pittsburgh.

IMHO, he is better than them in all aspects of the game that are offensive, he can't hold a candle to them defensively.

[esteef 2,679]

IMHO, he is better than them in all aspects of the game that are offensive, he can't hold a candle to them defensively.

C'mon Op, you're not humble!