Would you trade

[Dabura 12,232]

This thread is full of Wings bias.

And the world is full of Sidney homers.

[obey86 0]

I don't think anyone would trade 2 top ten forwards for 1 top ten forward but if you wouldn't do a 1 for 1 swap for Crosby you are clearly delusional. Think of it this way with two players of another sport who are in no way related to Detroit. Any team would love to have either Kobe or Lebron. The talent level between them is negligible and you could argue either way for who is "better". Having either of them would improve your team.

Sure, Kobe is known for being better defensively and also known for being the better overall scorer as he is a better 3-point shooter and shoots better from the free throw line. Even if you do feel Kobe is better overall than Lebron i'm pretty sure 99% of people would trade Kobe for Lebron. The question comes down to this: is the increase in talent over Lebron enough to justify not trading for approximately 8 more productive superstar-type seasons?

EVEN IF YOU DO BELIEVE THAT ZETTERBERG OR DATS IS BETTER OVERALL, THE DIFFERENCE IS TOO SMALL TO JUSTIFY NOT TRADING FOR A PLAYER (CROSBY) WHO IS 8 YEARS YOUNGER. Anyone not making that trade would be a complete fool. Either way you are going to compete for the Stanley Cup this season no matter which player is on your team. But trading for Crosby increases your chances of competing 5-7 years from now when Z or Dats are retired/at the end of their career and Crosby is just entering his prime. Unless the talent level is drastically different between the two players (which it obviously isn't) there is no reason to not trade for 8 additional years of having a superstar player.

Edited October 20, 2008 by obey86

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

I don't think anyone would trade 2 top ten forwards for 1 top ten forward but if you wouldn't do a 1 for 1 swap for Crosby you are clearly delusional. Think of it this way with two players of another sport who are in no way related to Detroit. Any team would love to have either Kobe or Lebron. The talent level between them is negligible and you could argue either way for who is "better". Having either of them would improve your team.

Sure, Kobe is known for being better defensively and also known for being the better overall scorer as he is a better 3-point shooter and shoots better from the free throw line. Even if you do feel Kobe is better overall than Lebron i'm pretty sure 99% of people would trade Kobe for Lebron. The question comes down to this: is the increase in talent over Lebron enough to justify not trading for approximately 8 more productive superstar-type seasons?

EVEN IF YOU DO BELIEVE THAT ZETTERBERG OR DATS IS BETTER OVERALL, THE DIFFERENCE IS TOO SMALL TO JUSTIFY NOT TRADING FOR A PLAYER (CROSBY) WHO IS 8 YEARS YOUNGER. Anyone not making that trade would be a complete fool. Either way you are going to compete for the Stanley Cup this season no matter which player is on your team. But trading for Crosby increases your chances of competing 5-7 years from now when Z or Dats are retired/at the end of their career and Crosby is just entering his prime. Unless the talent level is drastically different between the two players (which it obviously isn't) there is no reason to not trade for 8 additional years of having a superstar player.

Winner.

[frederick9125 0]

maybe one of them for ovechkin, but not both and not one for crosby

[#19forPresident! 1]

nope.

[bogeygolfer 4]

Fickle Wings Fans.

I'd probably trade you're two top...10 (not top 5) forwards for Sid. And I'd certainly trade either one of them in a heartbeat.

1. Sid

2. Alex

3. Iginla

4. Lecavelier

5. Malkin

Before last season's cup you were practically running your boys out of town.

No doubt Z and D are awesome players but Crosby they are not. They grew up in the Wings culture and they have been mentored and tutored by Yzerman, Shanahan, and Lidstrom in a winning tradtion. They have had a tremendous leg up on Crosby and yet they are still not even the best players on your team.

A few more losses to Toronto and Vancouver and most of you would be all over this deal.

And for those of you scoffing at the 1 for 1 suggestion you really need to consider what you're claiming.

1st of all let me just start off by saying, you are an idiot

your list makes no sense,

1) ovechkin is the best player in the world, hands down

2)malkin is barely top ten, especially after his poor, poor showing in the cup finals, I mean the guy didnt even try

3) we where never running zetterberg out of town, 3 years he had scored 5 goals in 5 playoff games the year before. Some people where angry about datsyuk performance. Then TWO years ago they got all the way to the semi finals until their defence was demolised with injuries, datsyuk and zetterberg where both praised and beloved from then on out.

4) everything you said about being brought up by being mentored by the wings greats of the 90's is true, it has made them BETTER players, better than crosby. I really dont understand how this helps your arguement.

Yes a 1 for 1 deal might be a steal, but the people who are saying no SAW the cup final last year, datsyuk and zetterberg out performed crosby, hands down. At this current time they are better all around players, one day soon crosby will pass them, but not right now, and with the wings poised to win another cup, why make the trade?

OMG, your nucks beat our red wings, dont you feel special?? dont worry one day maybe you will know what it's like to know who ever your team is playing that night, it isnt a surprise that you win. Because as wings fans we know what good hockey players are made off, we know what type of skill set wins cups, we should know. I've watch my wings hoist 4 cups over their heads, maybe one day you will too.

yea when crosby is 28 or 30 he's gunna be great, most probably better than datsyuk and zetterberg, but he will also be a free agent by then, we aren't trading for "10 years from now" we are trading for CURRENT production.

[obey86 0]

1st of all let me just start off by saying, you are an idiot

your list makes no sense,

1) ovechkin is the best player in the world, hands down

2)malkin is barely top ten, especially after his poor, poor showing in the cup finals, I mean the guy didnt even try

3) we where never running zetterberg out of town, 3 years he had scored 5 goals in 5 playoff games the year before. Some people where angry about datsyuk performance. Then TWO years ago they got all the way to the semi finals until their defence was demolised with injuries, datsyuk and zetterberg where both praised and beloved from then on out.

4) everything you said about being brought up by being mentored by the wings greats of the 90's is true, it has made them BETTER players, better than crosby. I really dont understand how this helps your arguement.

Yes a 1 for 1 deal might be a steal, but the people who are saying no SAW the cup final last year, datsyuk and zetterberg out performed crosby, hands down. At this current time they are better all around players, one day soon crosby will pass them, but not right now, and with the wings poised to win another cup, why make the trade?

OMG, your nucks beat our red wings, dont you feel special?? dont worry one day maybe you will know what it's like to know who ever your team is playing that night, it isnt a surprise that you win. Because as wings fans we know what good hockey players are made off, we know what type of skill set wins cups, we should know. I've watch my wings hoist 4 cups over their heads, maybe one day you will too.

yea when crosby is 28 or 30 he's gunna be great, most probably better than datsyuk and zetterberg, but he will also be a free agent by then, we aren't trading for "10 years from now" we are trading for CURRENT production.

Apparently you missed my point. You cannot go wrong with having EITHER player. They are both obviously very skilled and in the top 5, 10 players in the league. Put either player on the Wings and you could win a championship. I know it is impossible but if someone was to somehow quantify each player's "skill" level on a scale of 1-100 the difference would hardly be noticeable. Say for example Zetterberg has a 93 skill level and Crosby has an 87 skill level now. I hardly think that small drop would prevent the Wings from winning a Stanley Cup so your "current production" argument makes absolutely no sense because they are both going to produce amazing stats. So being essentially the same skill-wise why wouldn't you trade for the player who is 8 years younger? This would allow the team to win NOW and win LATER. You are making it sound like if we had Crosby right now we couldn't compete for a championship and would have to wait until he was in his prime.

[Hank 0]

Yes.

Crosby brings so much to the table, it's ridiculous. Not to mention he's 21, which is an age that most players haven't even reached the NHL yet let alone put up two consecutive 100 point seasons with a third one pro-rated to that. He's extremely good, and great for any market.

I'd do it too.

Maybe not at this moment, but in the offseason, absolutely.

With Zetts and Dats numbers off the book we could resign Hossa.

Fipulla has really impressed me so far, and I think he's on the verge of breaking out, much like Z was two years ago.

With a great first line of Homer-Crosby-Hossa and a terrific 2nd line of Franzen-Fipulla-Leino/Hudler/Cleary, we'd be set.

And like you said, Crosby is 21-freakin' years old. He's not even close to his prime and he's already a better offensive player than both Dats and Zetts. I know some disagree, but Crosby makes something out of nothing on every play. D and Z are both very dynamic offensive players, but in my mind, Crosby is the best in the world right now for generating offense.

And on top of that, he's North American - marketing gold baby!

Edited October 20, 2008 by Hank

[esteef 2,679]

Apparently you missed my point. You cannot go wrong with having EITHER player. They are both obviously very skilled and in the top 5, 10 players in the league. Put either player on the Wings and you could win a championship. I know it is impossible but if someone was to somehow quantify each player's "skill" level on a scale of 1-100 the difference would hardly be noticeable. Say for example Zetterberg has a 93 skill level and Crosby has an 87 skill level now. I hardly think that small drop would prevent the Wings from winning a Stanley Cup so your "current production" argument makes absolutely no sense because they are both going to produce amazing stats. So being essentially the same skill-wise why wouldn't you trade for the player who is 8 years younger? This would allow the team to win NOW and win LATER. You are making it sound like if we had Crosby right now we couldn't compete for a championship and would have to wait until he was in his prime.

That's the point, they are not "essentially the same skill-wise". Crosby can only play offensively, Z and D are all-around excellent players. Regardless of his age, I would still need to see more from him before I go trading away current superstars. Don't let the ridiculous media slobbing of Crosby sway your judgement. Now Hossa for Crosby right now? Maybe.

esteef

Edited October 20, 2008 by esteef

[Casey 145]

Not a chance. Offensive skill is a wash, but Crosby has essentially zero defensive skill.

[Hank 0]

Not a chance. Offensive skill is a wash, but Crosby has essentially zero defensive skill.

I wouldn't say that at all.

It's only been this season that he's been given PK time. And from the few games I've seen this year, he's a good penalty killer. He just needs time to learn it a bit more.

Besides, with other vets on the team, he wouldn't have to be counted on to kill penalties all the time.

Anyway, this is a great debate and I'm sure everyone who's on one side of the fence won't be convinced to come over to the other side.

But for me, I'd love to have Crosby on this team - even if the price was this steep.

[hamip1998 3]

In the same respect, age does come into play for Pav and Hank, as well...

Nothing against Crosby, I have a tremendous amount of respect for what he did for their team and his own personal stats, but there's more than just numbers on a sheet.

He lacks leadership. Yes, he was thrust into the captain position and the face/spokesman for the NHL, whether or not it was willingly, who cares. I understand he's young and it may come with time, but I hate the fact that he makes excuses for eveything.

When his team was legitimately getting BEAT by the BETTER TEAM, instead of rallying his team, blaming himself for certain errors or mental lapses, recognizing where his team went wrong, he sat there and blamed the officiating, the calls, the bounces, the ice, the humidity level, the positioning of the stars, etc. Everything EXCEPT admitting that he had been outplayed.

Pav and Hank would never do that. They're too classy.

Pav and hank have devoted themselves to the Red Wings system, and with that they know they're expected to remain calm and composed in the face of adversity, and they do it flawlessly.

When they play a down game, they acknowledge that, first and foremost, they could have played better. MAYBE they'll bring up a tough call, but for the most part, they're responsible and self-aware. They know they could've played better and that it was their own fault (most of the time) that they lost.

Crosby, although his *points* are off the charts, his character does not fit the DRW system and I, for one, would DESPISE seeing him in a Wings jersey, I don't even care how good he is.

Pav and Hank are the faces of the team, I'd keep it that way, hands down.

Everyone talks about how much better Crosby is going to be down the road. Chances are, sure, he will improve but how much no one knows. Lot's of things can happen to derail a career. Also, who can say that AO won't improve just as much or more?

Even if they weren't Wings, I would take Pav or Hank over the Kid. So much better defensively and much less expensive. I would consider one or the other for AO, though, but not both. In that scenario, whether you give up Pav or Hank, you are still left with a hell of a center.

I still wonder if Crosby would have quite the same career playing a different team and in the Western conference. He would still be great, but I don't think he would have quite the same numbers.

[Hank 0]

I still wonder if Crosby would have quite the same career playing a different team and in the Western conference. He would still be great, but I don't think he would have quite the same numbers.

A very fair question.

However, talents like Crosby always rise to the top.

It's also easy to speculate that Gretzky would have never scored 200+ points 4 times if he didn't play for the Oilers. Probably not. Sather loved to run and gun and gave him the partners to do so.

We also have to remember that Crosby plays for a defensive-minded coach. What if he were playing for Bruce Boudreau who likes his players to be aggressive?

Or what if Crosby was drafted by the Wings? There's a good chance he would have averaged 140 points a year by now.

All I know is, I've seen Crosby do things with the puck, and make plays, that I haven't seen anyone else in this era do. He's a 21 year old kid, who can dominate in a league that is ultra-conservative.

If he can remain healthy, it'll be interesting to see what he can do 6 years from now. Look at Dats and Zetts. Both weren't even close to the NHL at 21-years old. At 23 they were both 3rd line players.

It wasn't until their mid-20's that they were emerging as top-line players. And both played on an extremely gifted team with loads of talent.

I don't think it's a stretch to say that if you put a 28-year-old Crosby on this team right now, he could probably score 150-160 points. The guy made Andy Hilbert a point-per-game guy for crying out loud. Imagine what he could do surrounded by the talent the Wings possess.

Crosby, although his *points* are off the charts, his character does not fit the DRW system and I, for one, would DESPISE seeing him in a Wings jersey, I don't even care how good he is.

Wow! That's a very strong statement. You do realize that both Wayne and Mario were critized for being whiney too, don't you? Would you not like them either?

This guys character definitely fits into this team and everywhere else. All he wants to do is win.

Look at Datsyuk. It wasn't until the playoffs two seasons ago that he embodied what it took to win. And he admitted that when he spoke to Yzerman before the '07 playoffs. I saw a player that ran from the puck to avoid hits. I saw a player that didn't dig deep to win important games.

Has Crosby ever done that in his short career? Never. He's the first one in the corner and in front of the net.

Just because he whines now and then, doesn't mean he can't fit our system.

Chris Chelios is one of the biggest whiners in the league. He's constantly bitching to refs on and off the ice. And yet, I've never seen anyone say he can't play here.

Homer gives a good ear full too all the time.

Zetts and Dats don't complain because it's not their nature - like a lot of Europeans. Meanwhile, Canadians can have a lot of emotion on the ice. From Wayne, Mario to Esposito (who always cried!).

To say you'd hate to see him in a Wings jersey because of his whining is a very brash statement. And while many might echo it here, I can guarentee you a great majority of the anit-Crosby fans would be the first ones in line to buy his jersey if he was dealt here.

I seriously don't get the hate for this kid. But then again, I never understood it when people hated on Gretzky either.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Hank

[SoDakWing 8]

No way. Pavel n Hank are great 2way players... the only thing that I can see Crosby doing is one way... well that and bawlin his eyes out when he doesn't get the call he wants.

Edited October 20, 2008 by SoDakWing

[Lovin Jiri Fischer 147]

Absolutely not. Z and Dats are both excellent two-way players. Crosby does not bring as much to his team definseively as our guys do. All three of them can score, so they are about even there. Also, the Red Wings have a history of being a classy team. I do not want to spoil this reputation by getting rid of our classy players to get a whiny crybaby such as Crosby. Not to mention, I don't think Crosby would do well on this team anyway because he would have to get used to not being the only superstar. He would have to submit to captain Nick Lidstrom, and I don't think he is mature enough to handle it.

And Crosby gets injured a lot. Z does get injured often too, but Datsyuk is usually very healthy.

[The Secret 304]

Yzerman was all offense and learned 2 way play later on when it was required by him. Fedorov was the same. I think Crosby would make any team better and in the Winged Wheel he would be scarier then he already is. Th Red Wing organization has a way of changing how players work with each other. Hull was a loud mouth and at first wasn't sure how he would fit in and he managed quite nicely. Being a Red Wing demands respect and thats how almost every player brought here is able to fit in... Crosby would be no different. I am willing to bet he would gladly relinquish his C and sacrifice some numbers in order to lift the Cup. He is a competitor more fierce then most his age. Yes, I do believe his age is just one of many important factors. I agree with Hank, it wasn't until a few years ago that Dats and Z finally took their game to the next level to compete in a play off situation. Crosby has that instinctively. And if the biggest knock on him is "he's a whiner" then think about the good he'd bring because its the real reason that this thread was even created. I think the hate for Crosby is possibly driven by bias and maybe jealousy because of the attention he brings with him. Hate him or not... He is what he is and that is perhaps the greatest player in the league right now!

I do not want to spoil this reputation by getting rid of our classy players to get a whiny crybaby such as Crosby. We risked this when signing Chelios and Hull but they managed to fit in fine.

[Hank 0]

Yzerman was all offense and learned 2 way play later on when it was required by him. Fedorov was the same. I think Crosby would make any team better and in the Winged Wheel he would be scarier then he already is. Th Red Wing organization has a way of changing how players work with each other. Hull was a loud mouth and at first wasn't sure how he would fit in and he managed quite nicely. Being a Red Wing demands respect and thats how almost every player brought here is able to fit in... Crosby would be no different. I am willing to bet he would gladly relinquish his C and sacrifice some numbers in order to lift the Cup. He is a competitor more fierce then most his age. Yes, I do believe his age is just one of many important factors. I agree with Hank, it wasn't until a few years ago that Dats and Z finally took their game to the next level to compete in a play off situation. Crosby has that instinctively. And if the biggest knock on him is "he's a whiner" then think about the good he'd bring because its the real reason that this thread was even created. I think the hate for Crosby is possibly driven by bias and maybe jealousy because of the attention he brings with him. Hate him or not... He is what he is and that is perhaps the greatest player in the league right now!

I do not want to spoil this reputation by getting rid of our classy players to get a whiny crybaby such as Crosby. We risked this when signing Chelios and Hull but they managed to fit in fine.

Lets not get ahead of ourselves either. We got this 'classy' reputation based on how the players are treated. It came more from Illitch, Holland and Yzerman than the players on the ice.

Maltby will never, ever be classified as classy. He wears a shield down to his knees, starts crap but never, EVER backs it up by dropping the gloves and is constantly yapping to opponents and referees.

Draper can also yap with the best of them. I see him crying to refs all the time as well.

Kronwall, while I love the guy, has many questionable hits by leaving his feet, and I guarantee if he was playing for another team and laid one of these jump-hits to Zetts or Dats he would be enemy #1 on these boards.

And what about Bertuzzi? I only saw 2 people on these boards that hated him here because of his reputation. Almost everyone else loved him in the Winged wheel. This guy's personality was described as cantankerous on his best days, yet he fit in fine and the crowd loved him. And Holland would have loved to have him back as well.

I like this site, but it's appalling to see the rose-colored glasses that many wear.

Not all of our players are classy. Not all play clean 100% of the time.

What separates the Wings from most other organizations is the class of our owner who is commited to building a great team every year and how he's treated his players, managers and coaches.

We could trade for Jarku Ruttu, Chris Simon and Ryan Holweg and we'd still be a classy organization.

Not taking Crosby because he gets ticked at the refs or refuses to blow the Wings after losing the first two games of the Cup finals is ludicrous. This kid would do nothing but give 1000% every game. And would definitely help sell more tickets too.

While I love Zetts and Dats, you couldn't say that about either of them after their first 2 or 3 seasons.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Hank

[esteef 2,679]

Hank, Sid can start by giving 1000% on defensive play. I agree though on the "classy" moniker mostly being directed at the org and not necessarily the team on the ice.

BTW, Maltby's a s***-talker, and very good at it. While his game is not necessarily "class"-worthy, it's not like he cheap shots people, swings sticks, etc like the Hollweg's of the league. Also, doesn't he have some eye socket thing that keeps him behind the visor with the mitts on and not because he's a shrivelling coward? I thought I remembered something to that effect.

esteef

Edited October 20, 2008 by esteef

[OsGOD 3]

Trade them for a Weiner? WTF this has to be a joke right?

last i check sid the kid went down against our boys... he blows... well sucks... well both

P.s. i thought we already rapped the pens with their only actual SCF threats in getting Conklin and Hossa. Crosby is just left over trash at this point.

Edited October 20, 2008 by OsGOD

[obey86 0]

Look at this way. If the Pens were proposed a Z or Dats for Sid trade would they take it? You and I both know the answer is no. They aren't going to give up 8+ years of having a superstar for a player who plays more defense. Especially when that defense can be learned in the future by Sid.

Gretzky or Lemieux weren't known for being good defensively. But like Crosby they were unique offensive talents. Anyone would be silly to say that they wouldn't take Gretzky or Lemieux on their team because they don't backchack as hard as other players. Much like one be stupid to turn down a supremely talented 21 YEAR OLD because he is a little lax on defense at his age right now. I love Z and Dats as much as the next guy but all you people are letting your Red Wing bias cloud your judgement.

[esteef 2,679]

Look at this way. If the Pens were proposed a Z or Dats for Sid trade would they take it? You and I both know the answer is no. They aren't going to give up 8+ years of having a superstar for a player who plays more defense. Especially when that defense can be learned in the future by Sid.

Gretzky or Lemieux weren't known for being good defensively. But like Crosby they were unique offensive talents. Anyone would be silly to say that they wouldn't take Gretzky or Lemieux on their team because they don't backchack as hard as other players. Much like one be stupid to turn down a supremely talented 21 YEAR OLD because he is a little lax on defense at his age right now. I love Z and Dats as much as the next guy but all you people are letting your Red Wing bias cloud your judgement.

So if defense is so easily learned, why are there not more players like Dats and Zetts? Why is it always pointed out how excellent they are defensively, I mean if every player can just "learn it"?

Plenty of time to worry about "potential" during draft season. If you're talking about trading a current superstar, I'd want to make sure the player I'm getting for him is ready to go. When Sid has the complete game then I'd talk about trades, but not until...

esteef

Edited October 20, 2008 by esteef

[Chunkylover 26]

This is real tough to say. If Zetterberg signs for a similar $6.7M contract like Datsyuk then no.

Individually I would definitely trade one for one. Crosby is a great player, will be a great, and I can't hate the guy for the media's self-serving sycophancy.

If we can have both our guys for only 50% more than one Crosby though, there's no way a deal could be made.

Plus, I'm like Holland is with the loyalty. I'd have a hard time trading Lilja, Samuelsson, Draper, Maltby, or Hudler for anyone else. Unless it was for Ovechkin, Crosby, or Luongo. Hmm..., maybe Ken should look into that. McPhee did sign Theodore.

[obey86 0]

Crosby was a +18 to Z's +30 last season which really isn't that big of a difference especially considering that if Crosby didn't miss a bunch of games it could have been a little bit higher.

[obey86 0]

So if defense is so easily learned, why are there not more players like Dats and Zetts? Why is it always pointed out how excellent they are defensively, I mean if every player can just "learn it"?

Plenty of time to worry about "potential" during draft season. If you're talking about trading a current superstar, I'd want to make sure the player I'm getting for him is ready to go. When Sid has the complete game then I'd talk about trades, but not until...

esteef

Crosby doesn't have "potential" he has already proven he can play in this league. The only potential Crosby has is potentially putting up 150 points a season. I'm pretty sure that a player who can get over 100 points in a season is "ready to go" as you would say.

[Dabura 12,232]

While I understand and respect the youth argument ("We'll be able to stay competitive longer without sacrificing competitiveness in the here and now"), it's not necessarily a sure-thing like people are making it out to be. Firstly, as certain as we can probably be that Crosby will eventually become the real deal (i.e. a totally complete player who has addressed his shortcomings), that's not a given; his projection eight years from now isn't written in stone. And currently, he is not a complete player, whereas a guy like Hank is. Secondly, any franchise that brings in Crosby is going to have to build the team around him. That means if he were to step in to the Wings lineup today, the Wings' foundation of solid team D and puck-possession might suffer -- or, at least, their priorities might change. Certainly there would at least be a shift in leadership. These things wouldn't exactly guarantee smooth sailing.

So, for me, that's a big "f*** No" to trading Datsyuk and Zetterberg for Crosby.

Edited October 20, 2008 by Dabura