Holland's stance on Enforcers: Once and For All

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Wings prefer to pummel opponents with power play, not fists

The Detroit News's Dave Dye wrote an excellent article about the Red Wings' tendency to avoid fisticuffs, speaking to former Wings coach and player Nick Polano, the Wings' current "tough guy," Darren McCarty, ESPN's Matthew Barnaby, and a few Red Wings about Detroit's lack of a dedicated enforcer. Dye's discussion with Wings GM Ken Holland as to why the team needs no "heavyweight" is the most interesting part of his missive:

October 21, Detroit News: "You don't want to see your players get beat up, but how often does it happen over the course of a year?" Holland said. "I haven't been completely worried about it or I would have probably done something about it."

The addition of Marian Hossa is one of the reasons the Wings no longer have room on their roster for an enforcer.

"Which forward do you take out of our lineup to put in Aaron Downey?" Holland said. "Then you've got a guy who plays three or four minutes and you're down to a three-line team. Our fourth lines have always been able to play. That started under Scotty Bowman. He liked the ability to roll four lines."

Holland says that his team's draft philosophy simply excludes bringing players who fight for the sake of fighting into the organization:

"Would I like a guy who can skate and shoot and score 20 goals and be physical and get into fights?" Holland asked. "Yeah, I'd love one of those guys. If you want that element in your lineup, you've got to build your team different. I don't know where you find those guys. You probably have to draft them and develop them. We like skill. ... That has allowed us to get Jiri Hudler, Pavel Datsyuk and Henrik Zetterberg in the later rounds."

Holland believes that the Red Wings' best deterrent involves scoring goals while opponents who choose to take liberties with a Detroit player sit in the penalty box:

"What we have to be is dangerous on the power play, that's our toughness," Holland said. "It makes it more difficult to play that style against us."

If the Red Wings lack one ingredient thus far, it's Dallas Drake's relentless forechecking--not his fists. Crashing and banging to generate turnovers doesn't necessarily require dropping one's gloves, and it accomplishes a similar task in "creating space" for players to make plays. I'll take a nasty forechecker over a goon any day.

[motorcitykid 42]

Thanks for that NVM.

Some will choose to beat this issue over and over and over. Hell, I love D-Mac mostly for the beatings he'd lay on any and everyone, when he stuck up forour guys earlier in his career. But, the reality is our team is just not put together like that anymore. There is no way to utilize an enforcer, without losing another player out of the lineup who offers us a little more than that. As Kenny said, who sits? [i know, I know, some of you would scream Sammuelson!! ]

Count me among those who think our guys aren't exactly ******* out there on the ice anymore. I think this team as currently built, has PROVEN that!!

[esteef 2,679]

This is news?

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

This is news?

Nothing new, but I would hope the section I bolded would clear some things up.

[Skiing - Puck 0]

In short, when one of our players is getting wheeled off the ice on a stretcher he can be assured that his team mates will do their damdest to maybe score a goal and not seek any form of retribution.

I also find it hard for your power play to be an enforcer when your players are in thelocker room or hospital injured. That would be one hell of a shot to do that.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

^ Nevermind. I had a feeling this thread would get us nowhere and sure enough.

[Doc Holiday 0]

In short, when one of our players is getting wheeled off the ice on a stretcher he can be assured that his team mates will do their damdest to maybe score a goal and not seek any form of retribution.

I also find it hard for your power play to be an enforcer when your players are in thelocker room or hospital injured. That would be one hell of a shot to do that.

Cause that happens so often. I'm surprised we have a full lineup with how soft this team plays...

[DatsyukownzU13 1]

Simple. Kopecky sits.

What else does he bring to the table that Georges Laraque couldn't? I could make a case that a couple enforcers in the league are better hockey players than Kopecky. That said, I like his philosophy.

[GoWings1905 2,694]

In short, when one of our players is getting wheeled off the ice on a stretcher he can be assured that his team mates will do their damdest to maybe score a goal and not seek any form of retribution.

I also find it hard for your power play to be an enforcer when your players are in thelocker room or hospital injured. That would be one hell of a shot to do that.

Did you not read the article? How often has your scenario happened to the Red Wings?

[BlueMonk 102]

Regardless of what you think about the importance of having an enforcer on the ice, the Wings' philosophy has affected the way the fans feel about the team. Hockey is still a very popular sport around here and it's played at every level, and this team has a lot of followers. But what made fans so passionate about the Red Wings teams of the late 90s were things like the bloody rivalry with Colorado. This team could never be part of a rivalry like that; it's too civil. I'm sure new fans have been drawn to this team that the older editions didn't have, but quite a few have lost interest as well.

Whether you think fighting in hockey serves a purpose or is just ornamental, it's still pretty exciting to a lot of fans, and it leads to the kind of bad blood that gets fans fired up and makes the rivalries stronger. I struggle to understand how fans can view the game so differently, but we do. For me, a sport without lots of violence, including clean hits, dirty hits and fighting, is not hockey. I even like the agitators, the guys like Avery, Tootoo, Claude Lemieux, etc. Without them, the sport is less interesting, too. It's good to have villains.

More violence = happy BlueMonk

[egroen 384]

I bet he would have no more problems filling seats if he had a real fighter in the lineup... like it or not, fights sell.

I do miss it.... but not sure I would do anything differently with the glut of talent the Wings currently have.

Edited October 21, 2008 by egroen

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

BlueMonk, you've got a good point in regards to the rivalry and the types of players "needed" on both sides to make things heated. The types of players on the Red Wings and the Avalanche from '96-'02 was a big part of why that rivalry was so great and you're reasoning is probably why that type of rivalry won't exist again with the way the Wings currently play the game.

Now that being said, if I could have my cake and eat it too it would be great. The fact of that matter is that this Wings organization has gone in a different direction and its allowed them to be successful year-in and year-out. While it was entertaining and more passionate when the Wings used to play teams like Colorado I would never trade the success the Wings currently have to get back that type of team and risk losing chemistry.

This Wings franchise is the envy of the league and fans of other teams must laugh at some of us when we complain about not having enough fights to go along with our Stanley Cup Championships, Presidents Trophies, Divisional Championships and the multitude of wins piled up since the early 90's.

[Heaton 1]

Regardless of what you think about the importance of having an enforcer on the ice, the Wings' philosophy has affected the way the fans feel about the team. Hockey is still a very popular sport around here and it's played at every level, and this team has a lot of followers. But what made fans so passionate about the Red Wings teams of the late 90s were things like the bloody rivalry with Colorado. This team could never be part of a rivalry like that; it's too civil. I'm sure new fans have been drawn to this team that the older editions didn't have, but quite a few have lost interest as well.

Whether you think fighting in hockey serves a purpose or is just ornamental, it's still pretty exciting to a lot of fans, and it leads to the kind of bad blood that gets fans fired up and makes the rivalries stronger. I struggle to understand how fans can view the game so differently, but we do. For me, a sport without lots of violence, including clean hits, dirty hits and fighting, is not hockey. I even like the agitators, the guys like Avery, Tootoo, Claude Lemieux, etc. Without them, the sport is less interesting, too. It's good to have villains.

More violence = happy BlueMonk

I believe that it's just magnified this season because of all the talent the team has. Last year the Wings were fine with Downey playing regularly and then signing McCarty at the end of the year. This season is a special season, this is a one year window and I feel that just the mere fact of Downey and McCarty being resigned reaffirms my belief that Holland cares about the players being protected but I guess he's not as proactive as many would like.

After this season there's going to be changes, there's going to be more room for different types of players to make an impact but for the time being, with the Wings cap room, and the players who are currently in the lineup there's not enough of a justification to have that insurance policy out there. Once the season gets going a little bit I'm sure we'll see a lot more callups.

We all know during the playoffs the Wings play a more in your face brand of hockey and I think this lineup is more conducive to the playoffs than any other year I can think of.

On a side note, I'd be shocked if the Wings didn't bring in another hungry veteran for the playoff grind, just for extra motivation.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

For Holland to say this "power play is our enforcer" started with Bowman isn't entirely accurate. The lineup Jimmy Devellano had built is hardly like the one the Wings have now.

He did exactly what Holland referred to, sought out and developed those players who could fight, but could also play hockey. Think of the '97 lineup. Shanny (he was still a power forward then), McCarty, Konstantinov, Lapointe, Fetisov, Maltby (was nasty and would hit then), Aaron Ward. All those guys would hit, could play, and/or fight when necessary. Big physical players.

It also ignores that Scotty "I like to roll 4 lines" Bowman had Kocur and Grimson in his lineup for several years. Joey would play about 30-50 games a season, and it wasn't for his goal scoring.

Edited October 21, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[BlueMonk 102]

Heaton, I agree with your assessment for the most part.

Also, let's face it, it's hard to find talented guys who also bring size, speed and toughness. Those are franchise players for their teams. You pretty much have to draft those players, and when you're racking up 100 point seasons, players like that are already gone when your turn to pick comes around.

[Heaton 1]

Joey was a hockey player though and he was a winner. There's a huge difference.

Like I referenced in another thread, if Downey would've committed to getting better like Colton Orr of the Rangers did, he wouldn't have been banished to 4th in line in terms of callups.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Heaton, I agree with your assessment for the most part.

Also, let's face it, it's hard to find talented guys who also bring size, speed and toughness. Those are franchise players for their teams. You pretty much have to draft those players, and when you're racking up 100 point seasons, players like that are already gone when your turn to pick comes around.

.....and even more so now that we're in the Salary Cap Era.

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

Joey was a hockey player though and he was a winner. There's a huge difference.

Like I referenced in another thread, if Downey would've committed to getting better like Colton Orr of the Rangers did, he wouldn't have been banished to 4th in line in terms of callups.

And Grimson?

I'm definitely not saying that Kocur = Downey. Joey was a much better fighter, and a better hockey player. But not by a whole lot. He was on the team first and foremost for his fists and his hitting.

[Heaton 1]

Heaton, I agree with your assessment for the most part.

Also, let's face it, it's hard to find talented guys who also bring size, speed and toughness. Those are franchise players for their teams. You pretty much have to draft those players, and when you're racking up 100 point seasons, players like that are already gone when your turn to pick comes around.

On a side note, Helm was sent to GR which probably means McCarty will stick around. Not your guys first choice but to me that signifies he'll play next time another forward is out.

[Heaton 1]

And Grimson?

I'm definitely not saying that Kocur = Downey. Joey was a much better fighter, and a better hockey player. But not by a whole lot. He was on the team first and foremost for his fists and his hitting.

We never won anything with Grimson did we?

[esteef 2,679]

BlueMonk -- +2 for using "ornamental"!

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

We never won anything with Grimson did we?

I think he got traded before the Cup in 97.

My main point is that Holland is attributing this to the Scotty era. Yes Scotty liked to roll four lines, but he had a very different lineup then that was a mix of skill and toughness. This current philosophy is all Holland, not Scotty.

Edited October 21, 2008 by haroldsnepsts

[The Secret 304]

I agree that we don't need a goon taking up a roster spot. Also that the type of playered that would fit in and fight would likely have to be drafted as if you have yourself a Milan Lucic for example I doubt you will let him go. But I think if we could pick up someone that could contribute in points and PIM's I could think of a few players that would not be missed in our current lineup. Here's to hoping we can find ourselves a Milan Lucic type in the near future, I'm afraid hoping for this is all we have!

[Opie 308]

I think he got traded before the Cup in 97.

My main point is that Holland is attributing this to the Scotty era. Yes Scotty liked to roll four lines, but he had a very different lineup then that was a mix of skill and toughness. This current philosophy is all Holland, not Scotty.

While I agree with you, I bring this point of contention to the argument.

Shanny or a player of is caliber is not on this team or available to this team, D-mac in his prime is not on this team and is not available, Vlad was a product of the Wings, signed, neither Vlad nor a player of his ability are available to the Wings.

Lucic is not available to the Wings.

What should the Wings do?

If Lucic were out there and the Wings had a shot at him I believe Holland would make that move, however no one of that caliber is available for the Wings. And until a player of that skill/style is available the Wings will continue to make the best move for the Org. They tried Brad Norton, they are now trying the Aaron Downey experiment (which to me was successful last season).

It is not as if the team completely ignores the enforcer role, they just don't have access to the enforcer that they think is deserving a spot over skill players (take that term for what you will).

[haroldsnepsts 4,826]

While I agree with you, I bring this point of contention to the argument.

Shanny or a player of is caliber is not on this team or available to this team, D-mac in his prime is not on this team and is not available, Vlad was a product of the Wings, signed, neither Vlad nor a player of his ability are available to the Wings.

Lucic is not available to the Wings.

What should the Wings do?

If Lucic were out there and the Wings had a shot at him I believe Holland would make that move, however no one of that caliber is available for the Wings. And until a player of that skill/style is available the Wings will continue to make the best move for the Org. They tried Brad Norton, they are now trying the Aaron Downey experiment (which to me was successful last season).

It is not as if the team completely ignores the enforcer role, they just don't have access to the enforcer that they think is deserving a spot over skill players (take that term for what you will).

I would agree with all that, and say that good or bad, it's because it's not a really a priority to Holland.

Since he's been GM the Wings have lost a lot of those players, and they haven't been replaced in any way. They've been replaced with good players in most cases, but given up size and toughness.

All those guys from the 90s cup wins weren't just lucky breaks. The Wings sought them out. It is a long term philosophy and process, especially under the cap. And is not one Holland seems particularly interested in.