Holland's stance on Enforcers: Once and For All

[The Secret 304]

While I agree with you, I bring this point of contention to the argument.

Shanny or a player of is caliber is not on this team or available to this team, D-mac in his prime is not on this team and is not available, Vlad was a product of the Wings, signed, neither Vlad nor a player of his ability are available to the Wings.

Lucic is not available to the Wings.

What should the Wings do?

If Lucic were out there and the Wings had a shot at him I believe Holland would make that move, however no one of that caliber is available for the Wings. And until a player of that skill/style is available the Wings will continue to make the best move for the Org. They tried Brad Norton, they are now trying the Aaron Downey experiment (which to me was successful last season).

It is not as if the team completely ignores the enforcer role, they just don't have access to the enforcer that they think is deserving a spot over skill players (take that term for what you will).

Well said! In all honesty does having an enforcer on your team prevent anything anyway? If someone goons a player it is nice to see the gift returned but really I don't think it stops anything anyway.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

I would agree with all that, and say that good or bad, it's because it's not a really a priority to Holland.

Since he's been GM the Wings have lost a lot of those players, and they haven't been replaced in any way. They've been replaced with good players in most cases, but given up size and toughness.

All those guys from the 90s cup wins weren't just lucky breaks. The Wings sought them out. It is a long term philosophy and process, especially under the cap. And is not one Holland seems particularly interested in.

Now I'm not so sure its something he should be particularly interested in. If you have the coaching in place that preaches hard work and "team toughness" it proved last year it can be enough.

Don't misunderstand me HS because I know exactly what you're getting at. In fact, you and I were on the same page after the ANA series loss, but it now seems there is another recipe that has proven to also be successful.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

Well the Blues are obviously going in the opposite direction than the Wings.

Blues Claim David Koci from Tampa Bay

http://blues.nhl.com/team/app/?service=pag...rticleid=387802

Now in Koci you have a ginormous heavyweight who pretty much can't do anything else. The question is, WTF do the Blues need with Koci?

They already have:

Cam Janssen and DJ King (2 heavyweights)

Barret Jackman (middleweight)

Dan Hinote (featherweight)

I guess the Blues figure they can beat everybody up and win games? For some reason I don't think that's going to work very well.

Although imagine a line of Koci-Janssen-King. That'd make anybody forget about the puck and be looking over their shoulder.

[Casey 145]

Although imagine a line of Koci-Janssen-King. That'd make anybody forget about the puck and be looking over their shoulder.

They'd be on the short end of a perpetual 5-on-3.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

This got me thinking about a cover I think of SI that featured the Blackhawks. So I looked up their roster for a couple of years back. Now some of these guys are old now and even gone from the league but think back to the year they played together. Yes, these teams all pretty much sucked standings wise. But if you were a fight fan, then you were lovin' life if you followed the Hawks.

Hawks 98-99

Chelios, Manson, Probert, Moreau, Zmolek, Brad Brown, Jamie Allison, Mark Janssens, Dennis Bonvie, Chris Murray, Cam Russell, Ryan VandenBussche

97-98

Chelios, Moreau, Reid Simpson, Probert, Cummins, Russell, VandenBussche

96-97

Chelios, Moreau, Probert, Cummins, Enrico Ciccone, Russell, Steve Smith, Basil McRae

95-96

Chelios, Roenick, Probert, Smith, Igor Ulanov, Cummins, Russell, Ciccone, Moreau,

Now look at this ridiculous statistic

2007-2008 Red Wings ENTIRE ROSTER = 976 penalty minutes

1996-1997 Black Hawks = 993 penalty minutes (FROM ONLY 5 PLAYERS!!!!!)

Hawks Team Total = 1717 PIM'S!!!

Probert = 326

Ciccone = 233

Cummins = 199

Moreau = 123

Chelios = 112

The game sure has changed.

[ben_usmc 253]

Regardless of what you think about the importance of having an enforcer on the ice, the Wings' philosophy has affected the way the fans feel about the team. Hockey is still a very popular sport around here and it's played at every level, and this team has a lot of followers. But what made fans so passionate about the Red Wings teams of the late 90s were things like the bloody rivalry with Colorado. This team could never be part of a rivalry like that; it's too civil. I'm sure new fans have been drawn to this team that the older editions didn't have, but quite a few have lost interest as well.

Whether you think fighting in hockey serves a purpose or is just ornamental, it's still pretty exciting to a lot of fans, and it leads to the kind of bad blood that gets fans fired up and makes the rivalries stronger. I struggle to understand how fans can view the game so differently, but we do. For me, a sport without lots of violence, including clean hits, dirty hits and fighting, is not hockey. I even like the agitators, the guys like Avery, Tootoo, Claude Lemieux, etc. Without them, the sport is less interesting, too. It's good to have villains.

More violence = happy BlueMonk

I love to see a good line brawl as much as the next guy, but what really made the Av's/Wings rivalry special was the fact that people that don't normally fight or play dirty were. I mean I also think we could use an injection of muscle because that was what Kopecky was actually supposed to do be the new Drake, maybe he's still recovering me he just doesn't have it in him idk but either way he just hasn't done it so far so I would say try something new.

[Guest GordieSid&Ted]

In case anybody is curious the record for a single season is held by the 91/92 Sabres with 2713, roughly 3 times the amount the Wings had last year.

Rob Ray = 354

Brad May = 309

Gord Donnelly = 305

Brad Miller = 192

Jay Wells = 157

Doug Bodger = 108

Tony Tanti = 100

11 players over 50 pims

Plus, even Pat LaFontaine had 98 pims that year. When the hell did they ever find time to play hockey?

[Guest E_S_A_D]

Could this mean Downey's coming up? I hope so, the last thing I want tot see is the Wings keep playing soft. They went through last season and playoffs without playing soft, and now were back to this. But that's all speculation, I dont know the details.

Hollland gets paid more if they win. However, Illitch doesn't seem to realize that the stadium is half empty due to the euro-hockey product we have on the ice IN ADDITION to not having an enforcer...

Melrose said it best recently:

Still, it isn't as if there have been brawls breaking out all over the place that Koci has had to address. But as Melrose said (in what might be the quote of the year), "That's why the United States has a nuclear aresenal. It's called a deterent. Do you think (Minnesota's Derek) Boogaard is in the lineup because he's going to get 10 goals? I don't think so."

[Opie 308]

Hollland gets paid more if they win. However, Illitch doesn't seem to realize that the stadium is half empty due to the euro-hockey product we have on the ice IN ADDITION to not having an enforcer...

Melrose said it best recently:

Still, it isn't as if there have been brawls breaking out all over the place that Koci has had to address. But as Melrose said (in what might be the quote of the year), "That's why the United States has a nuclear aresenal. It's called a deterent. Do you think (Minnesota's Derek) Boogaard is in the lineup because he's going to get 10 goals? I don't think so."

Do you think Derek Boogaard is going to stop Steve Downie or Jesse Boulerice, I don't think so.

He may be in the line up to get retribution but not to prevent anything, he may prevent a Ron Francis type of player but not a Steve Downie, nor a Chris Simon.

Damn soft Euros they will never win anything with a bunch of soft Euros, good thing last years team wasn't full of soft Euros or worse yet led by one!!!!!!

Edit:

From its gritty downtown to its leafy suburbs, fears of massive layoffs loom large in Detroit, a city whose fortunes remain tied to the declining American automakers.

In the last eight years, Michigan has lost 300,000 manufacturing jobs, the bulk of them in the auto industry. The unemployment rate in Michigan hit 8.9 percent in August, well above the national average of 6.1 percent.

Detroit has also been ravaged by a declining population, failing schools and a housing market saddled with thousands of abandoned homes. It ranks as the poorest big city in the United States with over a third of its residents living below the poverty level.

But you are right the building is half empty only because of the lack of enforcers and the Euro product.

Edited October 21, 2008 by Opie

[edicius 3,269]

The only argument I have with "let the PP exact revenge" is that lately, our PP hasn't exactly been the force it was during the Yzerman era. But what he says is ultimately sound.

[Mors 201]

Holland can say whatever he wants...unless the Red Wings power play is #1 in the league, his words are meaningless and aren't going to deter anything.

Now if Holland had said "Our enforcer is Samuelsson shooting a 90 mph puck into your legs" I'd believe him

[GoWings1905 2,694]

Hollland gets paid more if they win. However, Illitch doesn't seem to realize that the stadium is half empty due to the euro-hockey product we have on the ice IN ADDITION to not having an enforcer...

You have got to be kidding me. Those "soft" Euros just won a championship. JLA isn't struggling to sell tickets because of the lack of a frickin enforcer. I don't base going to hockey games on how many fights I may see, and I am fairly safe in assuming most people do not either. The economy is simply awful in Detroit/Southeast Michigan and Northwest Ohio, where most of the Red Wings fanbase resides. The empty seats have everything to do with people doing their best to save money.

Your theory quite frankly is baseless. Nice attempt though to sugarcoat your belief that enforcers are the answer to the problem.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

Holland can say whatever he wants...unless the Red Wings power play is #1 in the league, his words are meaningless and aren't going to deter anything.

Now if Holland had said "Our enforcer is Samuelsson shooting a 90 mph puck into your legs" I'd believe him

Currently the Wings are 4th in the league, with a 27.3% PP. That number would easily be number 1 if they finished the season with it.

Sidenote: STL is #1 at 40.9%... You can tell its early!

[skacore 2]

Well the Blues are obviously going in the opposite direction than the Wings.

Blues Claim David Koci from Tampa Bay

http://blues.nhl.com/team/app/?service=pag...rticleid=387802

Now in Koci you have a ginormous heavyweight who pretty much can't do anything else. The question is, WTF do the Blues need with Koci?

They already have:

Cam Janssen and DJ King (2 heavyweights)

Barret Jackman (middleweight)

Dan Hinote (featherweight)

I guess the Blues figure they can beat everybody up and win games? For some reason I don't think that's going to work very well.

Although imagine a line of Koci-Janssen-King. That'd make anybody forget about the puck and be looking over their shoulder.

D.J. King is having shoulder surgery so Koci will be a part time replacement until he is back, apparently they didn't want Cam Janssen playing the role of enforcer, they want him to focus more on playing and hitting.

[Never_Retire_Steve 35]

Regardless of what you think about the importance of having an enforcer on the ice, the Wings' philosophy has affected the way the fans feel about the team. Hockey is still a very popular sport around here and it's played at every level, and this team has a lot of followers. But what made fans so passionate about the Red Wings teams of the late 90s were things like the bloody rivalry with Colorado. This team could never be part of a rivalry like that; it's too civil. I'm sure new fans have been drawn to this team that the older editions didn't have, but quite a few have lost interest as well.

Whether you think fighting in hockey serves a purpose or is just ornamental, it's still pretty exciting to a lot of fans, and it leads to the kind of bad blood that gets fans fired up and makes the rivalries stronger. I struggle to understand how fans can view the game so differently, but we do. For me, a sport without lots of violence, including clean hits, dirty hits and fighting, is not hockey. I even like the agitators, the guys like Avery, Tootoo, Claude Lemieux, etc. Without them, the sport is less interesting, too. It's good to have villains.

More violence = happy BlueMonk

Great post

I find it funny that we keep bringing up the enforcer issue..... I don't think either side is going to budge much on the issue as people have different ideas as to why teams are successful

Also, is it just me or now that Hasek is retired it seems that enforcer threads are replacing the goalie war threads.

[skacore 2]

On a side note, Helm was sent to GR which probably means McCarty will stick around. Not your guys first choice but to me that signifies he'll play next time another forward is out.

if McCarty plays I'm definitely not complaining.. but it's silly that he will be used as the 13th forward and inserted only when other players are injured.. I mean if the team is not going to utilize an enforcer properly throughout the season, why not just get another skilled player as #13? Again, not complaining, just don't see the point of it

[skacore 2]

While I agree with you, I bring this point of contention to the argument.

Shanny or a player of is caliber is not on this team or available to this team, D-mac in his prime is not on this team and is not available, Vlad was a product of the Wings, signed, neither Vlad nor a player of his ability are available to the Wings.

Lucic is not available to the Wings.

What should the Wings do?

If Lucic were out there and the Wings had a shot at him I believe Holland would make that move, however no one of that caliber is available for the Wings. And until a player of that skill/style is available the Wings will continue to make the best move for the Org. They tried Brad Norton, they are now trying the Aaron Downey experiment (which to me was successful last season).

It is not as if the team completely ignores the enforcer role, they just don't have access to the enforcer that they think is deserving a spot over skill players (take that term for what you will).

Everyone has a price, we just have to be willing to give up some of our own assets... since the lock out I keep hearing that none of the players who fight are available when really a ton have come and gone every single season. A guy like Milan Lucic is not just going to fall into our lap but it's not impossible to acquire a player who plays his style.

[Opie 308]

Everyone has a price, we just have to be willing to give up some of our own assets... since the lock out I keep hearing that none of the players who fight are available when really a ton have come and gone every single season. A guy like Milan Lucic is not just going to fall into our lap but it's not impossible to acquire a player who plays his style.

Again I agree 100%, it is not me making the decision, but in defense of Holland, many of the guys who have come and gone are of the Norton, Downey ilk.

While Derek Boogaard may fit a team like Minnesota's philosophy he just doesn't it the Wings philosophy. Being able to fight just isn't enough to make a regular appearance in the Wings line up.

Whether you or I like that or not is irrelevant, what is important is winning, not what people think of the team (IMO) if fans of Philly think the Wings are soft and laugh at them I am too busy watching highlights of the 07-08 cup to hear them!

BUT...

If a Lucic type player, or Lucic himself did fall into Kenny's lap I hope to hell Kenny would jump on it.

[Opie 308]

Another thought,

I know a lot of Fischer what if threads pop up and people speculate on who would be on the D had he remained healthy. I think he would have also filled a void of a guy who can throw and play with high skill.

Not saying the Wings are always looking for the fighter, but Fischer was able to do both and the Wings drafted him, so there have been times when Detroit has drafted that type of guy.

[esteef 2,679]

Although imagine a line of Koci-Janssen-King. That'd make anybody forget about the puck and be looking over their shoulder.

Don't say that too loud or you'll have folks calling you out to back it up with "stats". Intimidation is a myth and the Wings are immune to it.

esteef

[GMRwings1983 8,804]

What is the meaning of this thread?

We all know what Holland's outlook is. Some of us just don't like it. This won't change anything in anyone's mind since most people are already set in their outlook either way.

[eva unit zero 271]

Simple. Kopecky sits.

What else does he bring to the table that Georges Laraque couldn't? I could make a case that a couple enforcers in the league are better hockey players than Kopecky. That said, I like his philosophy.

Kopecky makes a million less than Laraque, who also makes more than Hudler, Franzen or Samuelsson. Laraque might be better than Kopecky...but he's not a million dollars better. He's MARGINALLY better if at all. Kopecky is a better skater and a better defensive player, and fits the Wings' system better.

Edited October 21, 2008 by eva unit zero

[uk_redwing 495]

Kopecky makes a million less than Laraque, who also makes more than Hudler, Franzen or Samuelsson. Laraque might be better than Kopecky...but he's not a million dollars better. He's MARGINALLY better if at all. Kopecky is a better skater and a better defensive player, and fits the Wings' system better.

Skill is measured in money is it?

Zetterberg doesnt appear to be very good in that case.

[Proud 2 B a Wings Fan 0]

Seems like people are split when it comes to the idea of the Wings having an enforcer. Holland says it takes away from the ability to roll four lines on a nightly basis but I think I have to disagree on that. I watched the highlights of the Habs/Coyotes game where Andre Kostitsyn was tko'd on what many say was a clean hit. The next shift the player that hit Him Sauer was on the ice Big George Laroque was right in His face telling Him that He wasn't getting away with what He did. At that moment I though there is what the Wings are missing, someone like Laroque who in My opinion can be a productive fourth line winger while at the same time making sure that no one on the opposing team takes liberties with any of His team mates. There are players out there Who can enforce while taking a regular shift to help His team. I don't see McCarty as being one of these players anymore though.

[NeverForgetMac25 483]

What is the meaning of this thread?

We all know what Holland's outlook is. Some of us just don't like it. This won't change anything in anyone's mind since most people are already set in their outlook either way.

The meaning of this thread was to post an article that explains Holland's feelings about enforcers rather than how we all feel about them. A lot of members here like to state the "reason Holland doesn't like enforcers" and this is a nice way of actually hearing the truth from the horse's mouth rather than some people's fabricated reasons about Holland's feelings.