# of Hall of Famers this dynasty will produce?

[eva unit zero 271]

*giggles*

No freaking way. I'm not saying Dino gets in, but Ray and Gerry need not be invited to the conversation.

Dino- 600+ goals, almost 600 assists, even 1200 points. Dropped two 50-50-100 seasons.

Gallant- barely played 600 games, scoring 211 goals. had a few 30 goal years

Ray-Ray- 357 goals and 300 assists for 657 points.

Yeah, nice try. Statistic your way outta that box o' stupid. Combined, Dino has better numbers. None of the three have anby hardware of note, so it's all numbers, and Dino broke 600.

Gallant is the only one who made the postseason all-star team. He makes it first on the Cam Neely scale; the peak of greatness is apparently more important than the overall length of greatness when considering HHOF ramifications. Although Ogrodnick had a higher peak than Gallant, Gallant had a higher peak than Ciccarelli, Sheppard, and Primeau.

Sheppard started his career at the end of the 80s and was good enough right away to IMMEDIATELY get votes for the postseason all-star team. The only reason he never scored 100 points is because he didn't play his best years in the 80s like Ciccarelli did; Sheppard was definitely a better player. Better vision, better passer, better hands, better shot. He was even better defensively. The only thing Dino could do better was skate.

Edited November 11, 2008 by eva unit zero

[miller76 463]

xm was all over the hhof today as their storyline for every program. EJ and Don on nhl live touched on ozzie for a second. They said, "that it is easier to say no chance at hhof, but the numbers speak for themselves. Good luck trying to keep this guy out" I had to agree. He will be there some day. Agree or not, the numbers are good.

[Shaman 713]

If Kronwall is ever going to be considered for the hall of fame, he better damn well get on it. January marks his 28th birthday and hes done nothing of consequence thus far that would warrant even a sniff at the HHOF.

Remember though, Lids was 31 when he got his first Norris

[thedisappearer 291]

Gallant is the only one who made the postseason all-star team. He makes it first on the Cam Neely scale; the peak of greatness is apparently more important than the overall length of greatness when considering HHOF ramifications. Although Ogrodnick had a higher peak than Gallant, Gallant had a higher peak than Ciccarelli, Sheppard, and Primeau.

Sheppard started his career at the end of the 80s and was good enough right away to IMMEDIATELY get votes for the postseason all-star team. The only reason he never scored 100 points is because he didn't play his best years in the 80s like Ciccarelli did; Sheppard was definitely a better player. Better vision, better passer, better hands, better shot. He was even better defensively. The only thing Dino could do better was skate.

You don't say a single thing there that makes anyone involved relevant to the HHOF debate, and managed to not disuade from Dino.

You referenced All Star nods... great. Dino has 600 goals. Counter that.

*keep in mind, I don't think Dino is HHOF material, I just love it when eva gets stats-retarded about something that is illogical.

[CloudConnected 0]

Gallant is the only one who made the postseason all-star team. He makes it first on the Cam Neely scale; the peak of greatness is apparently more important than the overall length of greatness when considering HHOF ramifications. Although Ogrodnick had a higher peak than Gallant, Gallant had a higher peak than Ciccarelli, Sheppard, and Primeau.

Sheppard started his career at the end of the 80s and was good enough right away to IMMEDIATELY get votes for the postseason all-star team. The only reason he never scored 100 points is because he didn't play his best years in the 80s like Ciccarelli did; Sheppard was definitely a better player. Better vision, better passer, better hands, better shot. He was even better defensively. The only thing Dino could do better was skate.

Out of any of those guys you are talking about, only Dino has a shot. The Hall of Fame is about stats, trophies and all-star selections. And 5th place Postseason All-Star votes aren't going to do it for anyone in this group. And I will say that Dino has one thing going for him, he is one of the greatest net-front offensive players of all time. He scored 600 goals, and 500 of them probably came with someone in his grill trying to get him away from the crease. Dino was elite at what he did, plus he has stats. That's why he's the only one of these guys in the running to me.

Primeau had flashes of dominance, but he doesn't have the stats. Not even in comparison to his contemporaries. He was a good 2nd line center in his prime. Not HOF worthy.

Sheppard played in the late eighties too, and in the early nineties. Both eras were marked with a lot of offense. And he had the misfortune of having to try to score while playing with the Panthers. It works against him, he won't be considered.

Gallant played in the era you say has inflated numbers, and his career numbers are pedestrian. Loved Gerard, but he doesn't get consideration.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling you are discrediting Cam Neely, but people remember him fighting through injuries to be a point per game player and a physical force. 50 goals in 49 games is quite a feat any way you slice it. He had heart, he had skill, and he was a tough bastard. He exemplifies hockey, that why he's in.

Edited November 11, 2008 by CloudConnected

[RWK23 0]

Remember though, Lids was 31 when he got his first Norris

Wow. That's hard to believe.

[eva unit zero 271]

Out of any of those guys you are talking about, only Dino has a shot. The Hall of Fame is about stats, trophies and all-star selections. And 5th place Postseason All-Star votes aren't going to do it for anyone in this group. And I will say that Dino has one thing going for him, he is one of the greatest net-front offensive players of all time. He scored 600 goals, and 500 of them probably came with someone in his grill trying to get him away from the crease. Dino was elite at what he did, plus he has stats. That's why he's the only one of these guys in the running to me.

Primeau had flashes of dominance, but he doesn't have the stats. Not even in comparison to his contemporaries. He was a good 2nd line center in his prime. Not HOF worthy.

Sheppard played in the late eighties too, and in the early nineties. Both eras were marked with a lot of offense. And he had the misfortune of having to try to score while playing with the Panthers. It works against him, he won't be considered.

Gallant played in the era you say has inflated numbers, and his career numbers are pedestrian. Loved Gerard, but he doesn't get consideration.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I get the feeling you are discrediting Cam Neely, but people remember him fighting through injuries to be a point per game player and a physical force. 50 goals in 49 games is quite a feat any way you slice it. He had heart, he had skill, and he was a tough bastard. He exemplifies hockey, that why he's in.

The point you are missing...

Gallant, Sheppard, Ogrodnick, Primeau, Ciccarelli? None of them should be in the Hall. And neither does Neely. 5 shutouts in a row is amazing, but Brian Boucher doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame does he? The HHOF is for the elite players of an era....not players who reach an arbitrary number that can be easier depending on when you played. Neely and Gallant were very similar players...Neely was injury-prone, Gallant wasn't. Why doesn't Gallant get in then? How about Kevin Stevens? He was a first or second team all-star more often than Neely and was the first player other than Lemieux score more points than Gretzky in the same season. His career was also ruined by injury; a much more gruesome injury than Neely suffered. Why isn't Stevens in the HHOF? Stevens was certainly more dominant than Neely was during the late 80s and early 90s, and despite suffering a more severe injury he lasted longer too.

[Doggy 130]

Every time the HHOF is mentioned you start complaining about Neely getting in, eva. Every. Single. Time.

Please get over it one day.

[thedisappearer 291]

Gerald Gallant:

Games/Goals/Assists/Points:

615 211 269 480

Cam Neely:

726 395 299 694

John Ogrodnick:

928 402 425 827

Ray Sheppard:

817 357 300 657

Keith Primeau:

909 266 353 619

Maybe there is a case for Ogrodnick (but not really) but bringing Gallant, Primeau, and Sheppard into the conversation is simply retarded homerism. Get a grip.

[pjgj13 30]

Mike Babcock is a great shout - he's already racking up the coaching milestones, and I agree he will be HOFer in a decade or two.

Oates isn't in the HOF yet (and may never be) and left Detroit before they ever became real good. Sheppard, Gallant etc are just silly.

Coffey is an interesting one - do we regard him as part of the Wings dynasty or not? He was a big part of our young up-and-coming team in the early-mid 90s, yet his departure was the trade that put us over the edge. Furthermore we brutalised him in the '97 finals....not sure how I feel about him.

How did we brutalize him in the 97 Finals? He was traded to Carolina.

I say the only locks are:

1. Lidstrom

2. Ozzie (stats speak for him)

3. Stevie Y (he isn't in YET)

4. Fedorov

5. Vernon (down the road)

6. Dino (if 600+ goals don't get you in, what does?)

7. Babs

8. Holland

These came off the top of my head and there are probably a few more. I am NOT including Sheppard, Primeau and Gallant. Shep had a few good years but nothing out of the ordinary outside of the Wings. I STILL don't understand why he was even captain in Philly. Gallant was a decent compliment to Stevie but not HOF credentials.

[YoungGuns1340 1]

Remember though, Lids was 31 when he got his first Norris

He was also a candiate before that and put up double the type of offensive stats that Kronwall has.

[Detroit # 1 Fan 2,204]

How did we brutalize him in the 97 Finals? He was traded to Carolina.

I say the only locks are:

1. Lidstrom

2. Ozzie (stats speak for him)

3. Stevie Y (he isn't in YET)

4. Fedorov

5. Vernon (down the road)

6. Dino (if 600+ goals don't get you in, what does?)

7. Babs

8. Holland

These came off the top of my head and there are probably a few more. I am NOT including Sheppard, Primeau and Gallant. Shep had a few good years but nothing out of the ordinary outside of the Wings. I STILL don't understand why he was even captain in Philly. Gallant was a decent compliment to Stevie but not HOF credentials.

He was dealt to Philly at the trade deadline in 97 and our speed made Paul look silly most nights. Still love the guy though.

[thedisappearer 291]

nm

Edited November 11, 2008 by thedisappearer

[BigTex 1]

I wanted to counter what Eva Zero said about my Franzen comment. I said Franzen has shown the POTENTIAL to be at that level.

Anytime anyone breaks a club record that Gordie Howe held I believe that's enough right there to warrant his name being discussed. The next 3 years for Franzen will show if he's capable at playing at that high a level. This season he seemed to come back just as good as last year's playoff push and cup run. How can you ignore that?

[Nev 1,085]

He hasn't even had ONE single season of HOF play. 2 months and a postseason. When he puts up 40-50 goals several seasons on the trot, then we can talk about that. Right now he's just a 2nd line winger who had a hot few months (much as we all love him)

As for Gallant/Sheppard/Primeau/Ciccarelli, its a pointless debate as

1) They are not part of the Wings dynasty era

2) They're not in the Hall of Fame

3) They're never going to be in the Hall of Fame (except, maybe, Dino)

Eva, if you really want to start a debate about depth players on the Redwings cup teams being HOF worthy based on how many times they finished 14th in voting for the Selke then Doug Brown and Slava Kozlov are much more relevant to the discussion at hand

Oh - and some perspective. Glenn Anderson was the 7th members of the Oilers dynasty to be inducted to the Hall. They've started a campaign to get Lowe in as the 8th, but I fell that would be like lobbying for Draper to be inducted - a key component of their team but not a HOF player.

[CloudConnected 0]

The point you are missing...

Gallant, Sheppard, Ogrodnick, Primeau, Ciccarelli? None of them should be in the Hall. And neither does Neely. 5 shutouts in a row is amazing, but Brian Boucher doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame does he? The HHOF is for the elite players of an era....not players who reach an arbitrary number that can be easier depending on when you played. Neely and Gallant were very similar players...Neely was injury-prone, Gallant wasn't. Why doesn't Gallant get in then? How about Kevin Stevens? He was a first or second team all-star more often than Neely and was the first player other than Lemieux score more points than Gretzky in the same season. His career was also ruined by injury; a much more gruesome injury than Neely suffered. Why isn't Stevens in the HHOF? Stevens was certainly more dominant than Neely was during the late 80s and early 90s, and despite suffering a more severe injury he lasted longer too.

I actually do see the point, and I alluded to it when I said the only one of these guys who has a chance is Dino. I think he could get in, but he'll be waiting for a long time for it.

As far as Neely vs. Gallant... Gallant was never the player Neely was. I loved Gallant, but he had 4, maybe five good seasons. Neely was dominant for around ten years. Even in his injury shortened seasons, he was still at or near a goal per game player in a few and a point per game in the others. He was dominant.

You want to know why Gallant won't get in? The way he fell off in the early 90s. He was a shadow of himself for his last five years of his career, and even played in the IHL because he couldn't hold an NHL job. I loved Gallant in his Detroit stint, but he wasn't Neely. He was nowhere near as effective as Neely.

Stevens' injury was more gruesome. Much more gruesome. But I still wouldn't say it was more severe to an athlete. If you take out an athlete's legs, he can't play anymore. It doesn't matter what sport. Pilon's hit on Stevens was no laughing matter, but Stevens played a full season the year after his injury, and had a great season. The injury didn't kill his career, being traded did. Kevin Stevens is widely seen as a man who benefitted from playing with Mario for 5 seasons. As soon as he wasn't riding shotgun to Mario, he couldn't put the puck in the net anymore. His last nine seasons in the NHL were spent bouncing from team to team because of his ineffective play. No one is putting him in the Hall.

Neely went out as a top player. I'd venture to say that if he had hung around and played in 4 or 5 ineffective seasons with a couple of different teams, he wouldn't be in the Hall right now. But he went out against his will because of his hip condition due to all of his leg injuries, and stepped into the Hall.

[CloudConnected 0]

Eva, if you really want to start a debate about depth players on the Redwings cup teams being HOF worthy based on how many times they finished 14th in voting for the Selke then Doug Brown and Slava Kozlov are much more relevant to the discussion at hand

Haha, yeah those stats kill me...

[eva unit zero 271]

I actually do see the point, and I alluded to it when I said the only one of these guys who has a chance is Dino. I think he could get in, but he'll be waiting for a long time for it.

As far as Neely vs. Gallant... Gallant was never the player Neely was. I loved Gallant, but he had 4, maybe five good seasons. Neely was dominant for around ten years. Even in his injury shortened seasons, he was still at or near a goal per game player in a few and a point per game in the others. He was dominant.

You want to know why Gallant won't get in? The way he fell off in the early 90s. He was a shadow of himself for his last five years of his career, and even played in the IHL because he couldn't hold an NHL job. I loved Gallant in his Detroit stint, but he wasn't Neely. He was nowhere near as effective as Neely.

Stevens' injury was more gruesome. Much more gruesome. But I still wouldn't say it was more severe to an athlete. If you take out an athlete's legs, he can't play anymore. It doesn't matter what sport. Pilon's hit on Stevens was no laughing matter, but Stevens played a full season the year after his injury, and had a great season. The injury didn't kill his career, being traded did. Kevin Stevens is widely seen as a man who benefitted from playing with Mario for 5 seasons. As soon as he wasn't riding shotgun to Mario, he couldn't put the puck in the net anymore. His last nine seasons in the NHL were spent bouncing from team to team because of his ineffective play. No one is putting him in the Hall.

Neely went out as a top player. I'd venture to say that if he had hung around and played in 4 or 5 ineffective seasons with a couple of different teams, he wouldn't be in the Hall right now. But he went out against his will because of his hip condition due to all of his leg injuries, and stepped into the Hall.

Hmm....let's look at Kevin Stevens, WITHOUT Mario.

in the 90-91 and 93-94 seasons, Mario Lemieux played fewer than 30 games. In the 94-95 season he did not play. Kevin Stevens scored better than a point per game in all three seasons. Of the three, only in 93-94 did Stevens fail to reach the .5 goals per game mark, scoring 41 goals in 83 games.

Stevens was a great player in his own right. Neely was probably the third greatest player on his Bruins teams, behind Bourque and Oates (in later years)

Stevens was the best player at his position multiple times and scored more than Neely. He achieved more. He set single-season records for his position and he was an all-around dominant player. Pens fans often said that having Stevens around made room for Lemieux and that was key to Lemieux's best years.

Both Stevens and Neely are, without a doubt, HHOFers if they don't have their injury issues. It's not even a debate. But IMHO, Stevens had the better ACTUAL career, and if Neely is considered good enough to be in, then Stevens should be in unless he's being kept out for his off-ice issues. That's likely what's keeping Ciccarelli out also.

The thing about the HHOF is it's not about "what ifs" it's about "what did" and Neely was treated to a what if because his career was not an HHOF career.

[Doggy 130]

Cam Neely was the greatest power forward of all time IMO and it's a fact that he set the prototype for that style of offensive player. This all in spite of an abbreviated career. This must count for something with you, eva.

And since stats are all you get - he is the second fastest player to score 50 goals I think.

He was just a gun. And the way he played through those injuries was incredible. You may have, but I have not lost my appreciation for the player that he was and it annoys me to hear you complain about him every time the HHOF in brought up. What do you get out of it?

You might say you like to use him as a comparison but it doesn't work that way. You don't get into the Hall based on what others have done. Besides, as a player Neely shat on guys like Stevens. It's not even arguable.

Edited November 12, 2008 by Doggy

[CloudConnected 0]

Hmm....let's look at Kevin Stevens, WITHOUT Mario.

in the 90-91 and 93-94 seasons, Mario Lemieux played fewer than 30 games. In the 94-95 season he did not play. Kevin Stevens scored better than a point per game in all three seasons. Of the three, only in 93-94 did Stevens fail to reach the .5 goals per game mark, scoring 41 goals in 83 games.

Stevens was a great player in his own right. Neely was probably the third greatest player on his Bruins teams, behind Bourque and Oates (in later years)

Stevens was the best player at his position multiple times and scored more than Neely. He achieved more. He set single-season records for his position and he was an all-around dominant player. Pens fans often said that having Stevens around made room for Lemieux and that was key to Lemieux's best years.

Both Stevens and Neely are, without a doubt, HHOFers if they don't have their injury issues. It's not even a debate. But IMHO, Stevens had the better ACTUAL career, and if Neely is considered good enough to be in, then Stevens should be in unless he's being kept out for his off-ice issues. That's likely what's keeping Ciccarelli out also.

The thing about the HHOF is it's not about "what ifs" it's about "what did" and Neely was treated to a what if because his career was not an HHOF career.

Eva, come on. You can't downgrade Neely for being the third best player on his team when Stevens played with Mario, Jagr, Ron Francis, Recchi, Tocchet, Larry Murphy, Paul Coffey, Joe Mullen, Luc Robitaille, Marty Straka... That's absurd. Say what you will about Stevens not needing Mario, truth of the matter is that he didn't produce when he was taken off of a team with at least 6 legitimate Hall Of Famers. Stevens will not make the Hall because in the last 8 years of his career he was an afterthought. Neely had a sustained level of excellence in his career, regardless of games played.

[eva unit zero 271]

Eva, come on. You can't downgrade Neely for being the third best player on his team when Stevens played with Mario, Jagr, Ron Francis, Recchi, Tocchet, Larry Murphy, Paul Coffey, Joe Mullen, Luc Robitaille, Marty Straka... That's absurd. Say what you will about Stevens not needing Mario, truth of the matter is that he didn't produce when he was taken off of a team with at least 6 legitimate Hall Of Famers. Stevens will not make the Hall because in the last 8 years of his career he was an afterthought. Neely had a sustained level of excellence in his career, regardless of games played.

Neely had a sustained level of excellence? WHEN? It's not 'full career' because his career numbers are laughable for Hall selection. So it must be over a specific couple of seasons, right?

Which seasons? Neely must have been the dominant RW in the league at the time, right? No, you say? He never once was named to the First Team?

So where's this "sustained excellence" you speak of? Sure, Brett Hull was dominating the position in the early 90s...but was Neely on the second team in those years? Meanwhile, Stevens was first or second team every year for four straight from 1990 to 1993, and could have kept going had he not been injured in the 93 postseason. Argue his teammates all you want, he had more in awards and stats than Neely. It's like saying if Luongo gets injured this year, he belongs in the Hall of Fame over John Vanbiesbrouck.

Some guys get the media and fan love, and some guys don't. But the facts bear out that Stevens accomplished more than Neely.

EDIT: I didn't downgrade Neely for being the third greatest player on his team. I was pointing out that it's silly to downgrade Stevens for being arguably the second or third greatest player on his team behind Lemieux and possibly someone else when Neely is in the same sort of slot. Stevens was certainly the team's second best player in his prime, which cannot be said of Neely, who was behind Oates and Bourque.

Edited November 13, 2008 by eva unit zero

[Spinner 6]

I figure it will never happen, but what about Homer? He is the best at what he does in front of the net. He may not be the best skater or whatever but because of him, a lot of goals get scored... and I do mean a lot!

[Doggy 130]

Neely had a sustained level of excellence? WHEN? It's not 'full career' because his career numbers are laughable for Hall selection. So it must be over a specific couple of seasons, right?

Which seasons? Neely must have been the dominant RW in the league at the time, right? No, you say? He never once was named to the First Team?

So where's this "sustained excellence" you speak of? Sure, Brett Hull was dominating the position in the early 90s...but was Neely on the second team in those years? Meanwhile, Stevens was first or second team every year for four straight from 1990 to 1993, and could have kept going had he not been injured in the 93 postseason. Argue his teammates all you want, he had more in awards and stats than Neely. It's like saying if Luongo gets injured this year, he belongs in the Hall of Fame over John Vanbiesbrouck.

Some guys get the media and fan love, and some guys don't. But the facts bear out that Stevens accomplished more than Neely.

EDIT: I didn't downgrade Neely for being the third greatest player on his team. I was pointing out that it's silly to downgrade Stevens for being arguably the second or third greatest player on his team behind Lemieux and possibly someone else when Neely is in the same sort of slot. Stevens was certainly the team's second best player in his prime, which cannot be said of Neely, who was behind Oates and Bourque.

Okay we get it. You don't like Cam Neely. He was much better than you think he was. And that my friend, is actually a fact. Something you have a very loose concept of. Hence, him being on the HHOF.

[thedisappearer 291]

Neely had a sustained level of excellence? WHEN?

Regular Season Playoffs

Season Team Lge GP G A Pts PIM GP G A Pts PIM

1986-87 Boston Bruins NHL 75 36 36 72 143 4 5 1 6 8

1987-88 Boston Bruins NHL 69 42 27 69 175 23 9 8 17 51

1988-89 Boston Bruins NHL 74 37 38 75 190 10 7 2 9 8

1989-90 Boston Bruins NHL 76 55 37 92 117 21 12 16 28 51

1990-91 Boston Bruins NHL 69 51 40 91 98 19 16 4 20 36

Did Cam Neely kill your dog, or did Stevens save him? Or both?

[Doggy 130]

We can keep going during his injury riddled seasons too:

1991-92 Boston Bruins NHL 9 9 3 12 16 -- -- -- -- --

1992-93 Boston Bruins NHL 13 11 7 18 25 4 4 1 5 4

1993-94 Boston Bruins NHL 49 50 24 74 54 -- -- -- -- --

That's 70 goals in 71 games. Not good enough for eva, apparently.